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allgivenover · **05-07-2015, 03:58 PM**

Bend the lore as far as you can without breaking it. But keep in mind that good lore bending won't ever get decimated by new lore, only slightly modified.

Melkire · **05-07-2015, 04:00 PM**

(05-07-2015, 03:58 PM)allgivenover Wrote: Bend the lore as far as you can without breaking it. But keep in mind that good lore bending won't ever get decimated by new lore, only slightly modified.

How do we define "slightly"? The degree of modification will vary drastically with each case. Are we condemning certain degrees of lore-bending because they require significant overhauling/retooling to bring them back into line with each new lore dump?

Yssen · **05-07-2015, 04:04 PM**

The fun part is that we are finding out more and more that things are not that rigid.

There are many Dragoons (Heavensward Trailer), there have been and are other WHMs besides the Padjal and the WoL (Y'shtola and Amdapoor Secrets), and so on.

It also works both in the opposite direction, we recently found out that Au Ra are not specifically draconic in lineage. Wildwoods found out in the Gelmorra Lore Bomb from a while back that they might have very much been in the wrong as far as their conflict with the Duskies goes. That same lore bomb, and other snippets have turned a Gridanian RPers idea that the Elementals are a force for good a bit on ear by talking about what they do, and revealing that they were not always in the Black Shroud. There are countless other examples going all the way back to 1.0 (hully crap, miqo culture. among other examples).

Lore is a living breathing thing. As the story of the game rolls on we will find out more and more stuff. More and more stuff will be hinted at. (We've been hearing that Garleans have third eyes since 1.0). We should all be prepared to be thrown sideways by Lore from time to time. What we should not do is deal in absolutes, andÂ commit to a strict stance because of those assumed absolutes.Â One just ends up being wrong in their strict stance half the time when that happens, and I have yet to seeÂ too many peopleÂ say "Whoops I was wrong" at all when it happens. On either side of whatever issue. To pull an example from outside theÂ FFXIV,Â no one saw a ton of support for R+L=JÂ when they first read GoT. Several books, a show, and some re-readingÂ with analysisÂ aÂ later andÂ it is a widely supported theory. We must emphasize theory.Â We don't know for sure until it is in print. We exist in the same place with regard to the game's lore.

In conclusion we must be flexible. None of us knows all of anything. We didn't write any of this world, we just play in it and read it as the secrets come out. We all have theories, but none of us is more right than anyone else until we see it in print. We should remember this as we take stances on things.

Khadan · **05-07-2015, 04:12 PM**

(05-07-2015, 03:54 PM)Verad Wrote:
(05-07-2015, 03:50 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I would change it to whatever the proscribed style of fighting is in the lore, since, by the given example such a proscribed style of fighting would be highly detailed in said content drop.Â

Adding to that it can simply be something passed down from father to son, too. It doesn't really change anything to do with the character and the back story is easily tailored to accommodate such a change.

I'd also be pretty surprised if SE ever did such a thing since 'fighting styles' in FF14 are almost all singularly based on the weapon rather than how that weapon is used. It's an extremely unlikely hypothetical but there you have it.

Also I see you perused my character wiki which makes you like... the fifth person in the world to do so lol. A couple points of clarification: the Circle of Blades was only taught in that group of Temple Knights as a means of perfect defense. Said group of Temple Knights were all wiped out due to a political betrayal. It is possible for the fighting style to be used with weapons other than sword-and-shield as it is a mindset more than a fighting style though it does favor the sword by virtue of its original design (La Destreza Spanish Fencing). Lastly there are only likely a small handful of surviving practitioners and only one of those is confirmed (Kayllen).

Regardless SE coming in to say "the TK's only fight THIS way and NO OTHER WAY, is not going to be a problem as I've taken all that into account beforehand. =)

I have no interest in whether or not SE will or will not actually do this. The question is a hypothetical. Plausibility rarely matters.

That said, while you say it's a fighting style, your wiki also very clearly explains how it has a definite impact on a student's psychology, to the extent that you explicitly state its students have to learn notÂ to think that way. If it turns out that the fighting style of the Temple Knights is one which similarly influences psychology to the extent that they are all, say, completely sincere and openly emotional in contrast to the absence of emotion that your current style describes, will Kayllen's psychology change to follow suit?

Contrarily I'd submit that plausibility has a lot to do with it since you're delving into some drastic hyperbole in order to prove that, what? I would actually become upset if SE dropped a lore bomb that drastically affected my character? I wouldn't, ultimately it isn't that big of a deal because despite how some aspects of the character are pretty solid there's really nothing that could happen to him at this point that would ruin the character's narrative and story continuity due to extensive pre-planning beforehand. On a side note, your example would be an entirely unique 'style' in the wide world of martial pursuits, though I can appreciate your intent.

On to your question, though. I would say that his psychology wouldn't change nor would need to change. He's been out of the Temple Knights for nearly 6-7 years, at this point and having left under rather 'curious' circumstances his entire life away from Ishgard has been one of having to be someone he necessarily isn't. It would be of practically little-to-no effort to shift the narrative from the training necessitating his mental state to his circumstances being the reasons for it. Again, this comes from a lot of pre-planning and from using real life historical representations of both martial arts and psychology. =)

This discussion is pretty enjoyable, so far!

Melkire · **05-07-2015, 04:17 PM**

(05-07-2015, 04:04 PM)Yssen Wrote: The fun part is that we are finding out more and more that things are not that rigid.

There are many Dragoons (Heavensward Trailer), there have been and are other WHMs besides the Padjal and the WoL (Y'shtola and Amdapoor Secrets), and so on.

It also works both in the opposite direction, we recently found out that Au Ra are not specifically draconic in lineage. Wildwoods found out in the Gelmorra Lore Bomb from a while back that they might have very much been in the wrong as far as their conflict with the Duskies goes. That same lore bomb, and other snippets have turned a Gridanian RPers idea that the Elementals are a force for good a bit on ear by talking about what they do, and revealing that they were not always in the Black Shroud. There are countless other examples going all the way back to 1.0 (hully crap, miqo culture. among other examples).

Lore is a living breathing thing. As the story of the game rolls on we will find out more and more stuff. More and more stuff will be hinted at. (We've been hearing that Garleans have third eyes since 1.0). We should all be prepared to be thrown sideways by Lore from time to time. What we should not do is deal in absolutes, andÂ commit to a strict stance because of those assumed absolutes.Â One just ends up being wrong in their strict stance half the time when that happens, and I have yet to seeÂ too many peopleÂ say "Whoops I was wrong" at all when it happens. On either side of whatever issue. To pull an example from outside theÂ FFXIV,Â no one saw a ton of support for R+L=JÂ when they first read GoT. Several books, a show, and some re-readingÂ with analysisÂ aÂ later andÂ it is a widely supported theory. We must emphasize theory.Â We don't know for sure until it is in print. We exist in the same place with regard to the game's lore.

In conclusion we must be flexible. None of us knows all of anything. We didn't write any of this world, we just play in it and read it as the secrets come out. We all have theories, but none of us is more right than anyone else until we see it in print. We should remember this as we take stances on things.

So to pose the writing prompt to you:

Let's say Square-Enix retcons out the old 1.0 lore regarding vengeance orders. Or maybe they expand on the lore and a mention comes up that Duskwight Elezen are not and have never been accepted into the Immortal Flames due to rampant racism. How would you handle adjustments to your character, their history, your headcanon, etc.?

Warren Castille · **05-07-2015, 04:25 PM**

(05-07-2015, 04:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote: This discussion is pretty enjoyable, so far!

Doing pretty good at bat so far, so mind if I throw a curveball?

Newly revealed Ishgardian lore states that Dragoons and Temple Knights are entirely different factions: If a family line blossoms a dragoon, their line can never be temple knights and vice versa.

What happens to your family history?

Disclosure: If anyone has a link to their wiki in their signature, I've probably read it.

Melkire · **05-07-2015, 04:28 PM**

(05-07-2015, 04:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -snip-

Pitch for Warren: Square-Enix clarifies in new lore dump that the Coliseum is the only Syndicate-sanctioned fighting arena and that all other tournaments have long since been outlawed throughout Thanalan, thereby effectively retconning the Grindstone out of existence as far as headcanon goes. What would Warren be doing instead?

I'd throw a pitch at everyone who's ever posted in this thread but I'm at work, don't have the time, and I feel like Warren cheated his way out of a real answer in his original post. I challenge everyone to try and answer the prompt, though.

***Maril*** · **05-07-2015, 04:34 PM**

I tend to try and stay away from controversial/grey areas of lore because of this. I also do not plan ahead on characters, e.g right now some people out there are fleshing out everything about their Au Ra's and I'm just sat here waiting for lore essentially. I have played a little with the character creator but I prefer finalizing things when the whole shebang goes live.

If it was to happen to me, I'd be seeing if there was any possible way to salvage the situation. I am not afraid of using ret-cons, and I have a pretty good idea about who knows what about my character, at least directly, so I would be able to manage it. However, if there's no way out then I would likely arrange for the character to fall over and die at some point. I'm not afraid of making new ones, it just means new adventures, but of course it'd suck a fair bit. But, personally I am just not comfy with playing something that very extensively breaks the lore. I can bend things, but not make them snap. If I was to just trundle through with it I'd be super self-conscious about it and feel that I'd have to excuse myself to the people that I am playing with because I am bringing something to their RP they might not accept and I really don't feel okay with doing that. I do not want to force things on my surroundings.

cuideag · **05-07-2015, 04:36 PM**

My headcanons generally revolve around cultural things more so than job/class/faction related things so I think that, for the most part, both of my characters have plenty of wiggle room to be more or less safe...

Jajara is really just some bumpkin from the desert. But if SE somehow decides that, yeaaaaah, nomadic lalafell? They ACTUALLY haven't been a thing in a super long time because, well, Ul'dah is so much nicer...! And we can't explicitly tell you what they live on because, well, they died out so long ago...! So REALLY all Dunesfolk are from Ul'dah and basically Ul'dah only! I think that might actually be an interesting twist, really. Because here's generally amicable, good and honest, salt 'o the earth Jajara suddenly walking around with a big old lie on her shoulders. The question becomes less 'where does she come from' and more 'why is she lying about where she comes from' and it kind of tickles me to think about what those answers could be.

So basically, I'd adjust to make sure I remain within the bounds of the law but Jajara herself might not. Instant hook for anyone who might pay attention to lalafell to be suspicious as to why this sweet little barrel of a lalafell spends her days pretending to be a simple merchant.

Warren Castille · **05-07-2015, 04:36 PM**

(05-07-2015, 04:28 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(05-07-2015, 04:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -snip-

Pitch for Warren: Square-Enix clarifies in new lore dump that the Coliseum is the only Syndicate-sanctioned fighting arena and that all other tournaments have long since been outlawed throughout Thanalan, thereby effectively retconning the Grindstone out of existence as far as headcanon goes. What would Warren be doing instead?

I'd throw a pitch at everyone who's ever posted in this thread but I'm at work, don't have the time, and I feel like Warren cheated his way out of a real answer in his original post. I challenge everyone to try and answer the prompt, though.

That's a good one. If third-party combat was illegal entirely, and always was without the Coliseum's sanction, I'd probably 1) poll the people at the GS if they cared and 2) drink a lot.

First things that come to mind: If it's illegal in Thanalan, we go outside of Thanalan. Set up shop in the foothills of Mor Dhona, or somewhere else that wouldn't mind. That'd make it a stretch to get Warren involved, due to him being anchored there, but I'm sure I could find a reason or three to get him outside.

Could also just handwave it in and say that the Grindstone has and has always had sanction from the Coliseum and treat it straight-up like a farm league. The Coliseum is where the REAL fighters go, but they've got to learn to raise those shields somewhere. The Grindstone would become the place where it lived up to its namesake: The only fighters who came out of it were sharper than ever before. Everything else is dust in the desert.

If I was reconsidering a large retcon, I could empty out of the basement of my FC house and straight-up Fight Club the joint. I can't exactly fit 30 people in there right now, but I'm sure I could try and make it work. Conversely, this future sees everyone get sick of the chatspam and quit, and Operation Mayhem never completes.

Hammersmith · **05-07-2015, 04:43 PM**

There's not a lot in Hammer's storys that can get headcannoned away.

Mostly they'd have to say "There have been no major inter-City State warfare in the last 30 years and no siege engines have been required outside of assaults on Garlean strongholds"

In which case Hammer's outlook on everything would have to swing, a lot. Â Most of what and who he is now is based around warfare, war profiteering, and understanding how to wreck things on a large, ugly scale.

He'd mutate into something more along the lines of Big Boss than what he is now. Looking out for what happens to soldiers once the wars just start blurring together, eventually looking to turn against and away and separate from.

Which is a weird opposite of what he is now, which is a vulture who circles warfare to live.

Aya · **05-07-2015, 04:45 PM**

(05-07-2015, 04:36 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(05-07-2015, 04:28 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(05-07-2015, 04:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: -snip-

Pitch for Warren: Square-Enix clarifies in new lore dump that the Coliseum is the only Syndicate-sanctioned fighting arena and that all other tournaments have long since been outlawed throughout Thanalan, thereby effectively retconning the Grindstone out of existence as far as headcanon goes. What would Warren be doing instead?

I'd throw a pitch at everyone who's ever posted in this thread but I'm at work, don't have the time, and I feel like Warren cheated his way out of a real answer in his original post. I challenge everyone to try and answer the prompt, though.

That's a good one. If third-party combat was illegal entirely, and always was without the Coliseum's sanction, I'd probably 1) poll the people at the GS if they cared and 2) drink a lot.

First things that come to mind: If it's illegal in Thanalan, we go outside of Thanalan. Set up shop in the foothills of Mor Dhona, or somewhere else that wouldn't mind. That'd make it a stretch to get Warren involved, due to him being anchored there, but I'm sure I could find a reason or three to get him outside.

Could also just handwave it in and say that the Grindstone has and has always had sanction from the Coliseum and treat it straight-up like a farm league. The Coliseum is where the REAL fighters go, but they've got to learn to raise those shields somewhere. The Grindstone would become the place where it lived up to its namesake: The only fighters who came out of it were sharper than ever before. Everything else is dust in the desert.

If I was reconsidering a large retcon, I could empty out of the basement of my FC house and straight-up Fight Club the joint. I can't exactly fit 30 people in there right now, but I'm sure I could try and make it work. Conversely, this future sees everyone get sick of the chatspam and quit, and Operation Mayhem never completes.

Just tell the Syndicate, "Good Luck finding Blades willing to shut it down." :-]

Warren Castille · **05-07-2015, 04:48 PM**

(05-07-2015, 04:45 PM)Aya Wrote: Just tell the Syndicate, "Good Luck finding Blades willing to shut it down." :-]

While Warren's sword arm and my heart are all aflutter at a faction war and social infighting, we're dealing with a "GS never existed" situation instead of a "GS can not now exist."

BUT MAN, THIS IS MAKING ME WANT TO WRITE ALT-VERSE FICTION.

Verad · **05-07-2015, 04:50 PM**

(05-07-2015, 04:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Contrarily I'd submit that plausibility has a lot to do with it since you're delving into some drastic hyperbole in order to prove that, what? I would actually become upset if SE dropped a lore bomb that drastically affected my character? I wouldn't, ultimately it isn't that big of a deal because despite how some aspects of the character are pretty solid there's really nothing that could happen to him at this point that would ruin the character's narrative and story continuity due to extensive pre-planning beforehand. On a side note, your example would be an entirely unique 'style' in the wide world of martial pursuits, though I can appreciate your intent.

My point is to get you to talk about your character in specifics and in detail rather than express the same platitudes about headcanon and working with the creative tools you're given which, I assure you, the majority of the RPC community knows. Thank you for doing so!

Quote:On to your question, though. I would say that his psychology wouldn't change nor would need to change. He's been out of the Temple Knights for nearly 6-7 years, at this point and having left under rather 'curious' circumstances his entire life away from Ishgard has been one of having to be someone he necessarily isn't. It would be of practically little-to-no effort to shift the narrative from the training necessitating his mental state to his circumstances being the reasons for it. Again, this comes from a lot of pre-planning and from using real life historical representations of both martial arts and psychology. =)

This discussion is pretty enjoyable, so far!

What circumstances would cause this mental state? If the training did not have the particular impact that it does in-game, and has some other affect (unique or not, given that this is a fantasy setting and this can, thoughtcrime though this may be on my part, indicate that not everything is based in real-life historical reresentations) on his personality, what would that be?

Yssen · **05-07-2015, 04:50 PM**

(05-07-2015, 04:17 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(05-07-2015, 04:04 PM)Yssen Wrote: -snipped my own things!_

So to pose the writing prompt to you:

Let's say Square-Enix retcons out the old 1.0 lore regarding vengeance orders. Or maybe they expand on the lore and a mention comes up that Duskwight Elezen are not and have never been accepted into the Immortal Flames due to rampant racism. How would you handle adjustments to your character, their history, your headcanon, etc

I would use or shift what was taken out with what exists to do as minimal an amount of shift as possible.Â In your particular case we'll start with the Vengeance Order.Â ItÂ is there to state that there is an active consequence for Yssen's straight up murder of a Monetarist and several of his goons, beyond the normal "authorities are looking for you." The device is just as easily shifted to something like a group of bounty hunters, or a huge sum of money being paid to the Thaumaturge's Guild for bringing him in. Probably easier to say there is a large bounty with a large signing fee, and several Thaumaturges and others took the bounty in the past.

As for his being in the Flames. Well the easiest answer is that Yssen is more often than not being deceptive in some way when he does things. Easiest explanation, he joined, but didn't tell anyone he was a Duskwight/took steps to cover up his being a Duskie. In this case probably a last "screw you" he put out there when he resigned his commission. "I quit, oh and by the way... I AM A FRICKEN DUSKWIGHT!" *raises middle finger to flame officers* The same incident is covered and serves the same purpose to the character's story as his original quitting did.

Slight changes, minimal overall impact on character's story. Yar.

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Disaster! SE just ruined your headcanon!

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