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Seye Qhesu · **06-08-2015, 12:20 AM**

(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-07-2015, 10:51 PM)Verad Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 10:18 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: What is there to prove? Au Ra were born like that, it's not their problem to begin with.

Racial tension is one thing, sure. It's there in the game (and much more tasteful in comparison), but lets be honest; a lot of this is just a glorified excuse to bring OOC feelings about Au Ra design into RP just like with the Miqo'te before them. It's going to burn bridges, not build them.

Besides, it's insulting and disrespectful to those of us that actually have to deal with being a minority. I get enough harassment in real-life as-is; I certainly don't need any of it here, not when I'm trying my hardest to escape from my worldly woes for at least an hour or two.

Edit: For the record, I'm fine with fictionalized conflict, but only when it's actually justified. This isn't.

What defines a justified fictional conflict?

One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

That is the thing though, they are new to the area and many people have a good chance of fearing what they don't understand and when fear is involved so does hate soon flourish. I can see some NPCS running through the markets telling mother's to hide their children at night because the Demons are here or something like that. I can see some shops refusing to sell to Au'ra merely because of how they look. Sure, they are born this way but they are not from the land and misunderstandings are bound to happen.

Not everyone will be sunshine and rainbows and want to meet them. There will be people out there that hate them for them just being them.

Kurt S. · **06-08-2015, 12:26 AM**

Kurt would likely be a bit hostile to be honest seeing as one, though hooded, kinda sorta tried to mug him while Leanne was busy cashing in on her date auction purchase. No way he'd forget those weird bumps on the cloak's hood.

Ramen and Nah would be curious or intrigued with them.

At the end of the day, as long as no one outright kills my au ra I'm a happy camper.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-08-2015, 12:26 AM**

(06-08-2015, 12:19 AM)Verad Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

By that definition, I don't think we can say much one way or the another about conflict being unjustifiable, because we don't know much of anything about their lore or their story - only their appearance.

If it turns out that there's longstanding antipathy between Ishgard and the Au Ra clans, for example, suddenly there's a justifiable in-setting conflict, one that a number of Ishgardian RPers are going to need to incorporate. I don't know if that's likely or not, but it's a possibility. Or maybe they have very harmonious relations and then there's even less justification.Â

But that's one possible definition. Vetiver's definition seemed to have more to do with whether it might make other players uncomfortable, or whether the conflict served some kind of thematic purpose. So to continue in that vein, if we find it's possible that this kind of conflict is justifiable through in-game lore, is it still unjustified for other reasons?

It is possible, however nothing up until now has lead us to believe that is the case. Though anything can be revealed.

And no, to answer the second question you posed, I don't think so. Regardless of any real world issues, Eorzea is portrayed as a land in the midst of turmoil and change. Part of that is racism.

The fact that a player might find in game racism problematic, or that it might remind one of issues of discrimination which face us in the real world, does not mean that it should not be RPed. Racism is written into the lore, much like many other troubling topics like rape, murder, slavery, and war. If Au Ra are discriminated against in the Lore, then expect that to flow out in RP, and if people don't like it they should choose a different race.

For example, my Brass Blade character treats all Highlanders like shit, because of the refugee problem in Ul'dah. He mocks them, tells them their kind isn't wanted here, and generally is an ass. However, it is just mirroring the attitude shown by Brass Blades in the lore.

Seye Qhesu · **06-08-2015, 12:36 AM**

(06-08-2015, 12:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:19 AM)Verad Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

By that definition, I don't think we can say much one way or the another about conflict being unjustifiable, because we don't know much of anything about their lore or their story - only their appearance.

If it turns out that there's longstanding antipathy between Ishgard and the Au Ra clans, for example, suddenly there's a justifiable in-setting conflict, one that a number of Ishgardian RPers are going to need to incorporate. I don't know if that's likely or not, but it's a possibility. Or maybe they have very harmonious relations and then there's even less justification.Â

But that's one possible definition. Vetiver's definition seemed to have more to do with whether it might make other players uncomfortable, or whether the conflict served some kind of thematic purpose. So to continue in that vein, if we find it's possible that this kind of conflict is justifiable through in-game lore, is it still unjustified for other reasons?

It is possible, however nothing up until now has lead us to believe that is the case. Though anything can be revealed.

And no, to answer the second question you posed, I don't think so. Regardless of any real world issues, Eorzea is portrayed as a land in the midst of turmoil and change. Part of that is racism.

The fact that a player might find in game racism problematic, or that it might remind one of issues of discrimination which face us in the real world, does not mean that it should not be RPed. Racism is written into the lore, much like many other troubling topics like rape, murder, slavery, and war. If Au Ra are discriminated against in the Lore, then expect that to flow out in RP, and if people don't like it they should choose a different race.

For example, my Brass Blade character treats all Highlanders like shit, because of the refugee problem in Ul'dah. He mocks them, tells them their kind isn't wanted here, and generally is an ass. However, it is just mirroring the attitude shown by Brass Blades in the lore.

That is all fine but you are also telling people that if it is not set in to the game it cannot be Rp'd. Each person is in charge of their own character. I know Miqo'te who are racist against Hyur just from RP interactions with them. My Au'ra is becoming racist against Miqo'te due to several very unhappy incidents with them through RP herself. I've seen Midlanders hate on lalafells. Racism is not just from npc. It can be taught through families and learned from others or through actions/interactions with races.

At this point,. I say if someone wants to RP the conflict and the other player is accepting; go for it. If someone tries to rp the conflict and the other player is uncomfortable a simple tell should fix that. If not? Blacklist and move on.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-08-2015, 12:38 AM**

(06-08-2015, 12:36 AM)Brianna Dunham Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:19 AM)Verad Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

By that definition, I don't think we can say much one way or the another about conflict being unjustifiable, because we don't know much of anything about their lore or their story - only their appearance.

If it turns out that there's longstanding antipathy between Ishgard and the Au Ra clans, for example, suddenly there's a justifiable in-setting conflict, one that a number of Ishgardian RPers are going to need to incorporate. I don't know if that's likely or not, but it's a possibility. Or maybe they have very harmonious relations and then there's even less justification.Â

But that's one possible definition. Vetiver's definition seemed to have more to do with whether it might make other players uncomfortable, or whether the conflict served some kind of thematic purpose. So to continue in that vein, if we find it's possible that this kind of conflict is justifiable through in-game lore, is it still unjustified for other reasons?

It is possible, however nothing up until now has lead us to believe that is the case. Though anything can be revealed.

And no, to answer the second question you posed, I don't think so. Regardless of any real world issues, Eorzea is portrayed as a land in the midst of turmoil and change. Part of that is racism.

The fact that a player might find in game racism problematic, or that it might remind one of issues of discrimination which face us in the real world, does not mean that it should not be RPed. Racism is written into the lore, much like many other troubling topics like rape, murder, slavery, and war. If Au Ra are discriminated against in the Lore, then expect that to flow out in RP, and if people don't like it they should choose a different race.

For example, my Brass Blade character treats all Highlanders like shit, because of the refugee problem in Ul'dah. He mocks them, tells them their kind isn't wanted here, and generally is an ass. However, it is just mirroring the attitude shown by Brass Blades in the lore.
That is all fine but you are also telling people that if it is not set in to the game it cannot be Rp'd. Each person is in charge of their own character. I know Miqo'te who are racist against Hyur just from RP interactions with them. My Au'ra is becoming racist against Miqo'te due to several very unhappy incidents with them through RP herself. I've seen Midlanders hate on lalafells. Racism is not just from npc. It can be taught through families and learned from others or through actions/interactions with races.

At this point,. I say if someone wants to RP the conflict and the other player is accepting; go for it. If someone tries to rp the conflict and the other player is uncomfortable a simple tell should fix that. If not? Blacklist and move on.

I don't think you read my post:
"Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so."

I agree, nothing wrong with people doing it on their own for their own reasons. I'm just saying there is nothing as of yet which implies there is large scale or systemic discrimination against the Au Ra.

Seye Qhesu · **06-08-2015, 12:43 AM**

(06-08-2015, 12:38 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:36 AM)Brianna Dunham Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:19 AM)Verad Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

By that definition, I don't think we can say much one way or the another about conflict being unjustifiable, because we don't know much of anything about their lore or their story - only their appearance.

If it turns out that there's longstanding antipathy between Ishgard and the Au Ra clans, for example, suddenly there's a justifiable in-setting conflict, one that a number of Ishgardian RPers are going to need to incorporate. I don't know if that's likely or not, but it's a possibility. Or maybe they have very harmonious relations and then there's even less justification.Â

But that's one possible definition. Vetiver's definition seemed to have more to do with whether it might make other players uncomfortable, or whether the conflict served some kind of thematic purpose. So to continue in that vein, if we find it's possible that this kind of conflict is justifiable through in-game lore, is it still unjustified for other reasons?

It is possible, however nothing up until now has lead us to believe that is the case. Though anything can be revealed.

And no, to answer the second question you posed, I don't think so. Regardless of any real world issues, Eorzea is portrayed as a land in the midst of turmoil and change. Part of that is racism.

The fact that a player might find in game racism problematic, or that it might remind one of issues of discrimination which face us in the real world, does not mean that it should not be RPed. Racism is written into the lore, much like many other troubling topics like rape, murder, slavery, and war. If Au Ra are discriminated against in the Lore, then expect that to flow out in RP, and if people don't like it they should choose a different race.

For example, my Brass Blade character treats all Highlanders like shit, because of the refugee problem in Ul'dah. He mocks them, tells them their kind isn't wanted here, and generally is an ass. However, it is just mirroring the attitude shown by Brass Blades in the lore.
That is all fine but you are also telling people that if it is not set in to the game it cannot be Rp'd. Each person is in charge of their own character. I know Miqo'te who are racist against Hyur just from RP interactions with them. My Au'ra is becoming racist against Miqo'te due to several very unhappy incidents with them through RP herself. I've seen Midlanders hate on lalafells. Racism is not just from npc. It can be taught through families and learned from others or through actions/interactions with races.

At this point,. I say if someone wants to RP the conflict and the other player is accepting; go for it. If someone tries to rp the conflict and the other player is uncomfortable a simple tell should fix that. If not? Blacklist and move on.

I don't think you read my post:
"Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so."

I agree, nothing wrong with people doing it on their own for their own reasons. I'm just saying there is nothing as of yet which implies there is large scale or systemic discrimination against the Au Ra.

That was your first post. I pulled from your last. As long as others see that a personal conflict of racism may happen as people play their characters different ways I am fine with this entire discussion. My main thing is that I do not want anyone to fear playing their character how they want it to be. Whether you want to avoid the racism that may come or be one who thinks Au'ra are beasts and need to be sent away. As long as people check with the other player I see no issue and I am happy to put in any tags that I welcome the conflict to help further push what I feel would be a good developing story of my Au'ra trying to prove anyone who hates her just for being her wrong.

Lilia Lia · **06-08-2015, 07:45 AM**

(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

What about Amalj'aa, Sahagin, Kobolds, etc?Â There's a lot of racial diversity in Eorzea that isn't accounted for in the player races, and these are far from accepted in society.

Gegenji · **06-08-2015, 07:50 AM**

(06-08-2015, 07:45 AM)Lilia Lia Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

What about Amalj'aa, Sahagin, Kobolds, etc?Â There's a lot of racial diversity in Eorzea that isn't accounted for in the player races, and these are far from accepted in society.

Some of them were, though, before Garlean propaganda sowed enough discontent to result in them getting kicked out. After all, you still see some Qirin in Limsa and there's a whole dungeon about helping a Gobbie. And, really, the Beast Tribe rep quests show that there's plenty of good folks on the beastly side.

Steel Wolf · **06-08-2015, 07:55 AM**

Wouldn't it be pretty amazing if, in the next expansion, the beast tribes and Grand Companies banded together to wash out the Garleans?

Sorry for the derail, I just had that thought-muffin bake.

On topic, I am very much looking forward to interacting with the Au Ra in-character as well as do some peoplewatching to see how they operate. Should be interesting. :>

Anyone wanna put together a pool on how fast a Miqo'te will try to snuggle a femmeRa?

Lilia Lia · **06-08-2015, 08:08 AM**

(06-08-2015, 07:50 AM)Gegenji Wrote: And, really, the Beast Tribe rep quests show that there's plenty of good folks on the beastly side.

What I've seen of the Beast Tribe quests also suggests that they are socially persecuted for their race even though they have good intentions.Â I haven't done a lot of them, but I remember the Kobold quest containing NPC dialogue like "a kobold's a kobold" and that the friendly tribe lives in fear of persecution.Â Ixali have a similar thing too.Â What's important here is perception, and there is definitely a perception that "all beastmen are alike" which is obviously provably untrue, but it's still a view held by characters.

I think players are generally quick to impose a really modern attitude towards racial tolerance onto their characters, which may be fair considering the racial diversity in Eorzea, but we should also realize that the setting contains a variety of attitudes towards races.Â

That having been said, I expect Au Ra PCs will be common enough that everyone will have at least one Au Ra in their social circle who serves as an example of how civilized they are.Â Especially since most PCs don't tend to play conflict-prone characters.Â

And for anyone saying there are no reasons for having a negative initial impression of Au Ra, you should review this thread because it contains a lot of interesting examples as to why characters may feel that way.

Cailean Lockwood · **06-08-2015, 09:02 AM**

(06-05-2015, 10:18 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 09:25 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 08:53 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: I really don't understand this and maybe I'm missing something, but what is there that's enjoyable about being treated like a racial minority circa late 1800s?

It has story potential. Â The need to prove yourself to people who fundamentally suspect or dislike you. Â Being misunderstood/distrusted and having to win the trust of those around you. Â As Seriphyn pointed out, not everyone will welcome this kind of conflict but many people will see it as the beginning of an interesting story.

What is there to prove? Au Ra were born like that, it's not their problem to begin with.

Racial tension is one thing, sure. It's there in the game (and much more tasteful in comparison), but lets be honest; a lot of this is just a glorified excuse to bring OOC feelings about Au Ra design into RP just like with the Miqo'te before them. It's going to burn bridges, not build them.

Besides, it's insulting and disrespectful to those of us that actually have to deal with being a minority. I get enough harassment in real-life as-is; I certainly don't need any of it here, not when I'm trying my hardest to escape from my worldly woes for at least an hour or two.

Edit: For the record, I'm fine with fictionalized conflict, but only when it's actually justified. This isn't.

This. So much this.
It's typical for people who hates something to bring it into IC as well. The hatred I see in this thread towards the Au Ra definately appears to be the reason why these people tries to spin it into IC reasons.

However, WE can decide what RP WE want to be part of. If people harrasses you online, put them on the blacklist and post a ticket if it continues there after.

Cato · **06-08-2015, 09:11 AM**

(06-08-2015, 07:55 AM)Steel Wolf Wrote: Wouldn't it be pretty amazing if, in the next expansion, the beast tribes and Grand Companies banded together to wash out the Garleans?

I hope not - I think the Garleans are intriguing enough to have more depth to them beyond 'let's have the cliche rag tag band of unlikely heroes take them all out'. I'd prefer to see something along the lines of the Archadian Empire from FFXII. The rot is removed from the leadership but the place remains fully intact.Â

After all, Garlemald has civilians and spans quite a large amount of land. They're conquerers, yes, but the full might of the Garlean Empire hasn't turned towards Eorzea and...let's be honest - a lot of Eorzea's own problems are caused from within. The recent situation in Ul'dah being a major example.

Even Ala Mhigo - a place a lot of role-players wish to see in-game - used to actively attack the other city states before the Garleans conquered it. Perhaps they did Eorzea a favour in that regard? Perhaps if the Garleans hadn't invaded Ala Mhigo then we'd have seen Ala Mhigo successfully take over the rest of Eorzea.

Gone. · **06-09-2015, 07:51 AM**

If you want me to be honest (and not quoting anyone in particular because I'm so burnt out by this point that I don't even care anymore), then I will: I think racism is a subject that cannot be trusted with 99% of roleplayers to handle with any sort of tact or respect for those around them.

Like sexism, homophobia and transphobia, it should not be touched. Just don't. RP is personal rather people want to deny it or not and these are the type of subjects that hit at an OOC level. They really, really do. Trust me on that.

I believe that the emotional well-being of those around you trumps your RP desires any day of the week. If you want to play those scenarios out, then do so in your private circle, not public where feelings can and will be hurt.

And let's be honest: it's been made very clear that OOC feelings will be driving IC Au Ra hate elsewhere. Just take a peek in any thread relating to them; it's quite damning.

Cato · **06-09-2015, 08:20 AM**

(06-09-2015, 07:51 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: If you want me to be honest (and not quoting anyone in particular because I'm so burnt out by this point that I don't even care anymore), then I will: I think racism is a subject that cannot be trusted with 99% of roleplayers to handle with any sort of tact or respect for those around them.

Like sexism, homophobia and transphobia, it should not be touched. Just don't. RP is personal rather people want to deny it or not and these are the type of subjects that hit at an OOC level. They really, really do. Trust me on that.

I believe that the emotional well-being of those around you trumps your RP desires any day of the week. If you want to play those scenarios out, then do so in your private circle, not public where feelings can and will be hurt.

And let's be honest: it's been made very clear that OOC feelings will be driving IC Au Ra hate elsewhere. Just take a peek in any thread relating to them; it's quite damning.

I've seen discrimination handled very tastefully by many different role-players. Just because something has the potential to not be done well it doesn't mean it should be avoided at all costs. Eorzea is portrayed within the game itself as being a place where tolerance is a rarity and life isn't easy.

For many role-players that is exactly the sort of thing that makes it very appealing and interesting. The popularity of the likes of The Witcher and Game of Thrones also suggests that there's quite a big market for gritty settings where not everybody gets along.

I can't help but get the impression that those firmly against any sort of discrimination at the hands of a character are the sort of role-players who are liable to allow IC affairs to bleed OOC and cause all sorts of drama as a result.

Heck, one of the most enjoyable sessions of role-play I've had in this game involves someone discriminating against Graeham due to his Garlean blood. It made for a situation that allowed for quite a bit of character growth.

Lilia Lia · **06-09-2015, 09:48 AM**

So if my character isn't immediately accepting of Au Ra, people are going to treat it as OOC "discrimination" and blacklist me or report me to SE?Â That's kind of ridiculous isn't it?

I already play a character who has peculiar attitudes towards races and I have never met anyone who thought it was a reflection of OOC feelings.Â I don't see why that's suddenly the case for Au Ra.

(06-09-2015, 07:51 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: And let's be honest: it's been made very clear that OOC feelings will be driving IC Au Ra hate elsewhere. Just take a peek in any thread relating to them; it's quite damning.

I'm still pretty new to the forum so maybe I just haven't seen these negative feelings... people dislike the Au Ra race OOC?

Poll: Your character's initial reaction to Au Ra? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Curious and eager to learn about them.	41.03%	32	41.03%
Generally neutral.	23.08%	18	23.08%
Wary, skeptical, or evasive.	29.49%	23	29.49%
Outright hostile.	6.41%	5	6.41%
Total		78 vote(s)	100%

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Au Ra - How will your character react?

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