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foxfirestorm · **06-25-2017, 11:54 AM**

While I may have a few stones throw in my direction-- or maybe kick on some lightbulbs...

But for those that got to the ending...

Show Content

Virella · **06-25-2017, 12:13 PM**

(06-25-2017, 11:54 AM)foxfirestorm Wrote: While I may have a few stones throw in my direction-- or maybe kick on some lightbulbs...

But for those that got to the ending...

Show Content

Elidibus Is....Who else wants to take bets that mister White Ascian = Gaius van Baelsar? Given the Emperor was pretty pissed going "How dare you!" and the fact mister White robes didn't show up until AFTER Gaius was knocked over. We know Ascians need bodies to be seen in the physical realm. We know they need their hosts to be in a weaken state both body and mind...

And given Gaius was both at the end of 2.0....

Also Gaius and the current Emperor were both highly against what Nael was doing, giving them a chance to get to know one another-- which may be how Gaius got away with blasting down Nael's Airships so you and the Grand Companies, back in 1.0, could get the needed specs.

Just food for though!

PS - I am a Garlean fangirl, I admit this. I am fascinated by them, studied their culture even back in 1.0 with what little we had, and adore Gaius. I never given up he is alive still- and if my theory on Legion's is correct by how the expansions go... Then to kill him... would be to kill 14. But that is another story for another time.

Okay, look, I'mÂ Gaius fangirl as well. But this has to be Regula, there's no other option.

Regula and the Emperor were friends, close ones even. Gaius and the new Emperor? Don't think they are even ever mentioned in the same line, let alone same dialogue.

Gegenji · **07-03-2017, 12:11 PM**

So, a thought occurred to me while listening to the theme from the final battle of the MSQ.

... Do you think the WoL will ever learn or get to do some of the crazier stuff we've seen the Echo's capable of? I mean, like, we've seen body-hopping back during Leviathan (and all the Ascians do this and they all apparently have the Echo or something?)... but Zenos literally possesses a Primal and takes control of it.

Because, I mean... there's vehicle fights and stuff where you get new abilities and whatnot on a special bar. Is there feasibility in the future of basically getting to do our own Shinryu vs. Omega giant monster battle?

Because the only new trick the WoL seems to have learned is that you can serve as a shield to block others from being tempered. Which is neat, and adds a new approach on "how to deal with Primals" if you have enough Echo users to pepper among your forces... but compared to WE BECOME AS (false) GODS, it's kinda lackluster.

Verad · **07-03-2017, 02:00 PM**

As always, there is a great deal of world-building and setting information that will be useful when subjecting roleplayers to future torments, packaged in a standard Final Fantasy storyline. 10/10.

As a narrative element, Zenos was fine. Callback to a standard form of an FF nihilist villain in the same way that so many of the monsters are callbacks to previous games and 6 in particular. Does it only count as a callback if we like being reminded of it?Â

Mechanically, Zenos was used in a way that corrected a problem I had with Heavensward's use of Thordan - he kicked our ass a lot. Thordan felt like a letdown because he was defeated immediately after his first appearance, an unfortunate consequence of the writers trying to keep the Knights of the Round reveal close to their chests. Zenos, on the other hand, is placed up-front and promptly smacks the player down, then does it again a second time for good measure.

The character's emphasis on fostering hatred in his enemies to make them stronger offered a new perspective on Ilberd's plan at the end of 3.X and highlighted the futility of creating Shinryu; not only was it a misguided effort that would cause more destruction than it stopped, but it was one Ilberd's enemy actively desired and immediately appropriated for his own use. He was playing to Zenos' interests all along.

Lyse is also fine in the mold of the earnest heroine who never really does anything but feels all her feelings very strongly kind of way. Pretty normal for a JRPG/anime war story as an audience surrogate/moral beacon meant to highlight the futility of war.

The more "complicated" nature of Hien means little to me in contrast. There was never any chance in the story's structure that Doma would roll over and surrender, and Hien would actually offer his head. It just wasn't in the cards. He had very nice eyebrows though.

I would be more comfortable with Gosetsu's survival if there hadn't been so many scenes in which he ruminated on the inevitability and acceptance of death and his past failings.

Moving forward, I'm interested to see if the story will push the hatred/forgiveness angle represented in the dichotomy between Lyse and Zenos. Fordola's survival may be important to that theme, since a lot of Ala Mhigans are going to want her head. Hopefully, the writers will approach this a bit more artfully than they did in HW.

Yssen · **07-03-2017, 08:00 PM**

(06-25-2017, 12:13 PM)Virella Wrote:
(06-25-2017, 11:54 AM)foxfirestorm Wrote: While I may have a few stones throw in my direction-- or maybe kick on some lightbulbs...

But for those that got to the ending...

Show Content

Elidibus Is....Who else wants to take bets that mister White Ascian = Gaius van Baelsar? Given the Emperor was pretty pissed going "How dare you!" and the fact mister White robes didn't show up until AFTER Gaius was knocked over. We know Ascians need bodies to be seen in the physical realm. We know they need their hosts to be in a weaken state both body and mind...

And given Gaius was both at the end of 2.0....

Also Gaius and the current Emperor were both highly against what Nael was doing, giving them a chance to get to know one another-- which may be how Gaius got away with blasting down Nael's Airships so you and the Grand Companies, back in 1.0, could get the needed specs.

Just food for though!

PS - I am a Garlean fangirl, I admit this. I am fascinated by them, studied their culture even back in 1.0 with what little we had, and adore Gaius. I never given up he is alive still- and if my theory on Legion's is correct by how the expansions go... Then to kill him... would be to kill 14. But that is another story for another time.

Okay, look, I'mÂ Gaius fangirl as well. But this has to be Regula, there's no other option.

Regula and the Emperor were friends, close ones even. Gaius and the new Emperor? Don't think they are even ever mentioned in the same line, let alone same dialogue.

I came to an entirely different conclusion when I thought about the "How dare you!" for a bit. I am not sure it is Gaius or Regula. Given the nature of the conversation prior to mask off being Â about father's and sons, I am about 60% sure our White Ascian is wearing the face of Solus. Elibidus not only showed up after Gaius fell, but when we knew good and well the Emperor was weak and dying. Wearing the former emperor's face also means that Elibidus holds a possible trump card over Varis in being able to de-legitimize Varis' regime by revealing that the "former emperor" is actually alive, if Varis should decide not to go along with the Ascian's machinations. The "how dare you!" then works two fold, how dare you wear the face of my dead dad, and how dare you put me in check like this. My only lingering 40% on this theory comes from how popular Gaius is with the fan base and the idea SE might choose to play on that angle instead.

Edda · **07-03-2017, 09:20 PM**

(06-25-2017, 04:47 AM)Kisha Wrote: - Lyse - Okay, I see where they wanted to go with her. At first she's young, stubborn and due to the defeat in Rhalgr's Reach, she goes on a journey to Othard in order to do soul-searching and help an old friend. And for a while, she actually -does- learn some stuff. However, what she is missing is a 'mentor' character. It would be sappy as hell but I think it would have been better if Hien and Lyse got closer and that Hien would learn Lyse about 'restraint'. When we return back in Gyr Albania, it's as if all the things Lyse learned while being in Othard are gone again and she acts once more like a spoiled child. I really felt we were watching another Cirilla from The Witcher series: Always thinks she's right, screams and rarely listens when others say: Don't do this please. In the end, I don't really like her and I hope they kind of push her aside in favor of other characters from now.Â

Yeeeeeah this is really well said. Exactly how I feel about her too. If it wasn't for Lyse my feelings towards Stormblood would have varied from ambivalent to happy, but Lyse really just dragged nearly every scene she was featured in down. Like... is this child really getting mad that fucking FARMERS aren't willing to fight against the people with magic death robots at the drop of a hat? God damn.

If I do Stormblood MSQ again on an alt without skipping cutscenes, I might as well just drink an entire bottle of wine every time the camera pans to Lyse just silently *clenching fist.* I'll probably die but whatever.

Kage · **07-03-2017, 09:40 PM**

Lyse's reactions to people who really can't afford to just throw down everything against the Garleans: I MEAN, I GUESS. BUT THEY REALLY NEED TO FIGHT THEM.

Kieron Lohengrin · **07-04-2017, 12:53 AM**

those farmers just need to learn how to punch bullets in midair like she does

Virella · **07-04-2017, 02:47 AM**

"How do you dare to be oppressed, jeeeeeez, just stand up against the bullies! Ermgeeeeerd gais." - Lyse

You know, I would have been fine with that if it was just at start of MSQ, but she continues to do this lol. That is what fucking bothers me.

***Teadrinker*** · **07-04-2017, 03:30 AM**

(07-04-2017, 02:47 AM)Virella Wrote: "How do you dare to be oppressed, jeeeeeez, just stand up against the bullies! Ermgeeeeerd gais." - Lyse

You know, I would have been fine with that if it was just at start of MSQ, but she continues to do this lol. That is what fucking bothers me.

Commander and leader material right here.

Yeah. In Disney-ending land.

Virella · **07-04-2017, 04:33 AM**

(07-04-2017, 03:30 AM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(07-04-2017, 02:47 AM)Virella Wrote: "How do you dare to be oppressed, jeeeeeez, just stand up against the bullies! Ermgeeeeerd gais." - Lyse

You know, I would have been fine with that if it was just at start of MSQ, but she continues to do this lol. That is what fucking bothers me.

Commander and leader material right here.

Yeah. In Disney-ending land.

She's Bella Swan, without her Edward. :^)

Edda · **07-04-2017, 06:41 PM**

(07-04-2017, 02:47 AM)Virella Wrote: You know, I would have been fine with that if it was just at start of MSQ, but she continues to do this lol. That is what fucking bothers me.

Yeah I really don't get the people who are claiming that Lyse grew a lot through MSQ and accomplished so much on her own. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to like her a lot too, but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking the writing around her was good, or that anything about her character 'development' was handled well. She's static from start to finish. Sure, she feels different from Yda, but she's still goofy and selfish and childish... if anything I noticed these traits more in Stormblood than I did before (though that could be because we've simply spent more time with her/my memory is shit). She got two wardrobe changes and made the leader of the Resistance, despite not having any skills a leader might need. The writing around her was as bad if not worse than Minfilia's.

Part of me wants to argue 'it's not the character that's bad, just the writing,' like I do with Minfilia... but constantly getting mad at oppressed non-combatants that are just trying to get by for not seeing things YOUR way is a pretty shitty character trait, lol. Ugh god, why.

Val · **07-04-2017, 06:50 PM**

To be fair, SE forgot how to write a good story after 12. None of this surprises me, so I don't really bother with giving it that much credit. For what it's worth, I was pleasantly surprised by some of it--and the rest, such as Lyse being Lyse, more or less reminded me of how awful the writing in the game is/can be.

Enla · **07-04-2017, 07:10 PM**

(07-04-2017, 06:41 PM)Edda Wrote:
(07-04-2017, 02:47 AM)Virella Wrote: You know, I would have been fine with that if it was just at start of MSQ, but she continues to do this lol. That is what fucking bothers me.

Yeah I really don't get the people who are claiming that Lyse grew a lot through MSQ and accomplished so much on her own. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to like her a lot too, but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking the writing around her was good, or that anything about her character 'development' was handled well. She's static from start to finish. Sure, she feels different from Yda, but she's still goofy and selfish and childish... if anything I noticed these traits more in Stormblood than I did before (though that could be because we've simply spent more time with her/my memory is shit). She got two wardrobe changes and made the leader of the Resistance, despite not having any skills a leader might need. The writing around her was as bad if not worse than Minfilia's.

Part of me wants to argue 'it's not the character that's bad, just the writing,' like I do with Minfilia... but constantly getting mad at oppressed non-combatants that are just trying to get by for not seeing things YOUR way is a pretty shitty character trait, lol. Ugh god, why.

Like Ave alluded to, Lyse has a bad case of what I would call Bella Swan syndrome. We're told countless times throughout the story how competent she is, how good she is, how right she is for the position; how we're supposed to care about her and her struggles, and how she truly earned everything she was given. Yet the writing does not fall in line with these sentiments. The writers failed the most basic of writing tropes with Lyse in that we're TOLD about how worthy she is, but never actually SHOWN it. A fact which trips up many a person it seems and allows them to falsely believe the spiel without hard evidence to back it, which happened similarly with discussions about Bella's inflated status as a feminism symbol when she was anything but.*

Don't get me wrong, I'm praying Lyse develops properly in the coming patches as I've always had a soft spot for characters who start as unlikable and end up being something so much more than even they could have dreamed of. Yet unlike the Youko Nakajima's of the world, Lyse has been placed so high upon a pedestal already and basically told that her naivete isn't an issue that I can't see how they're going to fix this convoluted mess they've created. Not without pulling the same stunt they did with Alphinaud and the Crystal Braves.

Which to be blunt, is what Lyse's writing reminds me of. She's a bastardization of Minfillia, yes. Yet more than that she's following right in ARR Alphinaud's footsteps down to the inflated sense of importance the plot is trying to contrive upon her. Why they're making near the same mistake, down to the plot beats, is boggling my mind given the fact that we needed an entire expansion after the fact to redeem Alphinaud of his mistakes.

*This is not to say you can't like Lyse or her arc, but the similarities between her and Twilight's titular character in terms of raw WRITING MISTAKES cannot go unstated.

***Nero*** · **07-04-2017, 07:12 PM**

One thing that really bothers me about MMO stories in general is that most of them try to pull this "YOU are the ONLY ONE who can STOP THEM" thing. Which I Hate, with a capital "H" and the fiery intensity of a million Foreman grills, because MMO stories can never decide if the Hero actually is the Chosen One or not.

Up until now, I had been under the impression that the Warrior of Light had been defeating the Primals by themselves, at least ever since Thordan. Which is acceptable, that's what the WoL is renowned for, the god killer, the eikon slayer. Which is also why Zenos bothered the shit out of me; it's implied that he's some kind of experiment or clone or something, sure, but this wahoo with a golf bag and huge shoulder pads is on-par or greater than shit like King Thordan and Sephirot? Really?

As I recall, there's also zero reason given as to why we are capable of defeating Zenos in the Ala Mhigo dungeon; maybe he was literally just waiting for the Warrior of Light to hit Level 70, I don't know.

Anyway, I thought that the Warrior of Light was THE CHOSEN ONE, defeating the primals by themselves (and requiring help for larger scale things like Castrum Meridianium and the Steps of Faith). I didn't have a problem with that.

What I did end up having a problem with was the story talking about how the Warrior of Light needs the help of friends to defeat primals like Susano, along with some OOC forum talk that "obviously the WoL didn't defeat primals by themselves, they had a bunch of help! It makes sense that Zenos beat them!"

Which bothers the shit out of me, because narratively speaking, why aren't these other heroes mentioned? Either the Warrior of Light is The Chosen One, or he isn't, and if he isn't, why doesn't the narrative acknowledge the army of other loot-crazed wahoos that are clearly present in the setting and who also happen to be just as capable of killing Primals? Wy are these other heroes who are so clearly integral to my success not ALSO realm famous?

Like, did everyone forget about Aragorn and Gimli and Gandalf and everyone else in the Fellowship because Frodo (well, technically, Sam) is the one who destroyed the One Ring? What kind of sense does that make?

And yes, you can call this being extremely anal retentive and nitpicky and me being unable to suspend my disbelief or whatever, but it still bothers me. Clearly, in order for WoL to have help in fighting primals, the other 7 people would need the Echo or else be tempered, right? Why is the WoL the only one getting credit when everyone--at least everyone in the Scions--seems to know that the WoL needs help to defeat primals? Why don't they ever ask any of these other heroes for help when Ala Mhigo's shit is getting pushed in?

Or I guess it's just a plot hole.

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[Discussion] [SPOILERS] Stormblood MSQ + Story

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes