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Kismet · **10-30-2013, 06:38 PM**

(10-30-2013, 06:27 PM)Olofantur Wrote: As an aside, we can all agree that you can skip the story line right? you can cancel out of cut scenes and right click spam through chat...

Skipping the cutscene does not make it so that you do not have to the quest itself, though. Skipping cutscenes will not magically grant you access to dungeons or primal battles. All I'm saying is that I feel that it would be really nice if the developers made it so that players had a variety of ways of unlocking the same content. You'd have to put in the same amount of effort, but you'd have more than one way to go about it.

LeCard · **10-30-2013, 07:06 PM**

(10-30-2013, 06:38 PM)Kismet Wrote:
(10-30-2013, 06:27 PM)Olofantur Wrote: As an aside, we can all agree that you can skip the story line right? you can cancel out of cut scenes and right click spam through chat...

Skipping the cutscene does not make it so that you do not have to the quest itself, though. Skipping cutscenes will not magically grant you access to dungeons or primal battles. All I'm saying is that I feel that it would be really nice if the developers made it so that players had a variety of ways of unlocking the same content. You'd have to put in the same amount of effort, but you'd have more than one way to go about it.

Why would you want to play any game with RPG in the classification that didn't have a cool story to play through? In fact I don't think FF fans would even let the producers live if they tried to make a game where the story wasn't integral to the whole thing. though loads of side quests and extra bits are just as required. But FF is KNOWN for story.

Maybe you could get away with, here is the world level and open the dungeons, if you were in a world like Star wars, or star trek or some such. Just enough of the idea that you are this, you know the world from the movies, go! But, with FF each game is its own unique world (disregarding that 13 nonsense they have been pulling and x-2) and as such, you need the story to understand what the world is. otherwise its just a bunch of people in weird armour running around for who knows what.

The lore, is why i love FF. It should require story.

Skipping story should only be for when you have been there done that on another character.

K'dath · **10-30-2013, 07:26 PM**

(10-30-2013, 06:27 PM)Olofantur Wrote:
(10-30-2013, 05:55 PM)Kdath Wrote: But the dungeons and raids in WoW are connected to the story.

The story compliments the content. It's the framing device. It is not the content itself.

In your regular JRPG, yes, the story is the content. But I think that's a bad model for an MMO.

Perhaps your content =/= story comment is the crux of it, for me the story is the key piece of content, if I only wanted tab-targeting mechanics and roleplay I have other options, but none with the backdrop and narrative of Primals, Garleans and the like. The seemingly and sometimes literal shark jumping is one of a dozen reasons WoW and I parted. The dark, drama-ish narrative is what (aside from social events) is what keeps me interested.

For an MMO current content is generally another way of saying end game. Normally just shortened to 'content' for the sake of talking about whatever the most recently released patch/raids are, not necessarily the whole contents of the game.

In most MMO's your reward for getting to level cap is access to that content. You can now 'play the game for real' as it were as this is where most of the challenge and fun distractions open up.

In a single player JRPG your reward is the story line. You play through the game to experience the story and when you have beaten the game you get to know the ending.

FF14 is telling me I have to play this single player RPG while sitting next to tons of other fun people before I can play the MMO with them. I feel that this is a bad design choice.

Kismet · **10-30-2013, 07:47 PM**

(10-30-2013, 07:06 PM)LeCard Wrote: Why would you want to play any game with RPG in the classification that didn't have a cool story to play through? In fact I don't think FF fans would even let the producers live if they tried to make a game where the story wasn't integral to the whole thing. though loads of side quests and extra bits are just as required. But FF is KNOWN for story.

Maybe you could get away with, here is the world level and open the dungeons, if you were in a world like Star wars, or star trek or some such. Just enough of the idea that you are this, you know the world from the movies, go! But, with FF each game is its own unique world (disregarding that 13 nonsense they have been pulling and x-2) and as such, you need the story to understand what the world is. otherwise its just a bunch of people in weird armour running around for who knows what.

The lore, is why i love FF. It should require story.

Skipping story should only be for when you have been there done that on another character.

I think you misunderstand. No one is saying that the story should not be there at ALL. As you said, this is a FF game. People expect story.

But we cannot forget that there is an MMO element here as well, and people play MMOs to experience content with others. If something is holding the player back from experiencing said content with others, then doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing? We also must not forget that not EVERY FFXIV player is necessarily a FF fan. Some may have never even played a FF game before, let alone an MMORPG. As a business dealing in the MMO market, you must cater to a much wider audience than you would with a single-player game. SE is well-aware of this. They've made an MMO before and they're not stupid.

I'm not saying that this is something that will make or break the game. It's obviously not. However, I think that finding ways to mix the main storyline with ANYTHING the player decides to do (without shoving it down their throats or using it to hold content hostage) is a very possible thing and not too far-fetched of an idea to grasp. But that's just me.

(10-30-2013, 07:26 PM)K'dath Wrote: For an MMOÂ current contentÂ is generally another way of saying end game. Normally just shortened to 'content' for the sake of talking about whatever the most recently released patch/raids are, not necessarily the whole contents of the game.

In most MMO's your reward for getting to level cap is access to that content.Â You can now 'play the game for real' as it were as this is where most of the challenge and fun distractions open up.Â

In a single player JRPG your reward is the story line.Â You play through the game to experience the story and when you have beaten the game you get to know the ending.

FF14 is telling me I have to play this single player RPG while sitting next to tons of other fun people before I can play the MMO with them.Â I feel that this is a bad design choice.

Could not have put this better myself. My feelings exactly.

Olofantur · **10-30-2013, 08:05 PM**

(10-30-2013, 07:26 PM)Kdath Wrote: For an MMO current content is generally another way of saying end game. Normally just shortened to 'content' for the sake of talking about whatever the most recently released patch/raids are, not necessarily the whole contents of the game.

Every group i'm in just calls any objective that one works through "content" where as End-game/Raids are called end-game/raids, a particular sub-set of content. No shortening is necessary, in this discussion I have the capacity to pay attention to things for a long time.

(10-30-2013, 07:26 PM)Kdath Wrote: In most MMO's your reward for getting to level cap is access to that content. You can now 'play the game for real' as it were as this is where most of the challenge and fun distractions open up.

Thats opinion, so no one can really refute it, I enjoy Raiding, but I also know some people who don't do it more than once for the story element, then go about other activities.

(10-30-2013, 07:26 PM)Kdath Wrote: In a single player JRPG your reward is the story line. You play through the game to experience the story and when you have beaten the game you get to know the ending.

FF14 is telling me I have to play this single player RPG while sitting next to tons of other fun people before I can play the MMO with them. I feel that this is a bad design choice.

So the "Current end-game content" is the only "MMO" aspect of the game? I disagree on that point, but opinion like before.

(10-30-2013, 06:38 PM)Kismet Wrote: Skipping the cutscene does not make it so that you do not have to the quest itself, though. Skipping cutscenes will not magically grant you access to dungeons or primal battles. All I'm saying is that I feel that it would be really nice if the developers made it so that players had a variety of ways of unlocking the same content. You'd have to put in the same amount of effort, but you'd have more than one way to go about it.

Yes but outside the story line there is no in-game reason for the Dungeons to exist. As well, I was addressing the line that the story was "being shoved down your throat" in such a way that you don't actually have to read the story, you can just kill X, skip the cut scene and then kill Y, of course you still have to do the quests to unlock it. Just as you have to do the quests to unlock jobs...

How would you address opening content in a logical order without using quests as a gating system? I just think SE had a firm idea in mind and unabashedly made this game with a strong and central story element.

On the topic of "must cater to a wider audience" i'm unsure as to the validity of that statement. XI, GW1, and Eve are all arguably niche games that have done fine for themselves. Or rather did fine, its been a while since GW1 so I can't speak to the stability of it these days.

Kismet · **10-30-2013, 09:26 PM**

(10-30-2013, 08:05 PM)Olofantur Wrote: Yes but outside the story line there is no in-game reason for the Dungeons to exist. As well, I was addressing the line that the story was "being shoved down your throat" in such a way that you don't actually have to read the story, you can just kill X, skip the cut scene and then kill Y, of course you still have to do the quests to unlock it. Just as you have to do the quests to unlock jobs...

How would you address opening content in a logical order without using quests as a gating system? I just think SE had a firm idea in mind and unabashedly made this game with a strong and central story element.

On the topic of "must cater to a wider Â audience" i'm unsure as to the validity of that statement. XI, GW1, and Eve are all arguably niche games that have done fine for themselves. Or rather did fine, its been a while since GW1 so I can't speak to the stability of it these days.

There shouldn't have to be a main storyline-tied reason for a dungeon to exist in an MMO. It can and should have a story, yes. But does it have to be part of the main story? No.

MMOs are about content and demonstration of mechanics more than presentation of story, even in MMORPGs. It's supposed to be an MMO with RPG elements, not an RPG with MMO elements. Skipping quest dialogue doesn't change the issue. Just the fact that I'm forced to fight a strictly story-related boss fight and cannot move on at all through the content until I do so, is (in my opinion) unnecessary. And, frankly, kind of silly.

I never said that quests should not be in place at all as a 'gating system' for reaching new areas and whatnot. Although, to answer your question, one possible thought is that you could simply make it so that all dungeons have a level requirement for entry and that's it. But that's too simple. No one wants anything just handed to them, right? Perhaps there is a quest line one must go on specifically for unlocking that dungeon. Or perhaps you must find a certain item that drops off a mob and use it as an entry token. These are far from the best ideas ever, but at least it would not block a level 50 player from doing Copperbell Mines for example just because they didn't finish their story quests.

As niche as the games you mentioned may or may not be, FFXIV doesn't fit that mold. FFXIV does not have a marketing campaign of a hardcore, ball-buster game. Why? Because it's not one. They want to cater to everyone from the diehard MMO vet to the fresh-off-the-boat MMO newbie. XIV is not aimed at some teeny-tiny niche group of players who have never seen the light of day and want a game that will break their soul. SE knew that kind of harshness is exactly the reason why FFXI turned some people (myself included) off. XIV, in its current form, is a much more accessible game than XI ever was.

Cato · **10-30-2013, 10:05 PM**

I don't think I can even begin to express how much I loathe the F.A.T.E system. It's clunky and feels very tacked on and is only relied upon so much simply because of how disproportionately efficient it is for gaining experience compared to the likes of dungeons and levequests.

It's actually proving to be a bit of a deal breaker for me, since I've completed the main story on my primary character and now seek to level him as an alternate class after finding that I vastly preferred the overall style of a lancer compared to a bard.

LiadansWhisper · **10-30-2013, 10:17 PM**

(10-30-2013, 06:38 PM)Kismet Wrote:
(10-30-2013, 06:27 PM)Olofantur Wrote: As an aside, we can all agree that you can skip the story line right? you can cancel out of cut scenes and right click spam through chat...

Skipping the cutscene does not make it so that you do not have to the quest itself, though. Skipping cutscenes will not magically grant you access to dungeons or primal battles. All I'm saying is that I feel that it would be really nice if the developers made it so that players had a variety of ways of unlocking the same content. You'd have to put in the same amount of effort, but you'd have more than one way to go about it.

They wanted to make a Final Fantasy game. Â It isn't for everyone, but it is what it is. Â Personally, I was a little irked at first, but then once I realized that this really is a Final Fantasy game, it was great.

K'dath · **10-31-2013, 12:05 AM**

(10-30-2013, 10:05 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: I don't think I can even begin to express how much I loathe the F.A.T.E system. It's clunky and feels very tacked on and is only relied upon so much simply because of how disproportionately efficient it is for gaining experience compared to the likes of dungeons and levequests.

It's actually proving to be a bit of a deal breaker for me, since I've completed the main story on my primary character and now seek to level him as an alternate class after finding that I vastly preferred the overall style of a lancer compared to a bard.

You only dislike it because you're bad at it. Standing around like a lump while your pocket cat boy spams AoE.

KitKat · **10-31-2013, 04:45 AM**

Hitting the end game dungeons isn't the only MMO experience to be had. There are dungeons at all level ranges from 15+ that provide fun gameplay with other people.

LiadansWhisper · **10-31-2013, 05:01 AM**

(10-31-2013, 04:45 AM)TheCurls Wrote: Hitting the end game dungeons isn't the only MMO experience to be had. There are dungeons at all level ranges from 15+ that provide fun gameplay with other people.

Nah, though I can see how it can be frustrating for people who just want to get to the endgame to experience it.

Thing is, right now there really isn't much of an endgame at all. Â The content that's out is already being chewed up and spit out. Â Hopefully Square will respond with more content in a timely manner.

LeCard · **10-31-2013, 07:54 AM**

(10-30-2013, 09:26 PM)Kismet Wrote: MMOs are about content and demonstration of mechanics more than presentation of story, even in MMORPGs. It's supposed to be an MMO with RPG elements, not an RPG with MMO elements. Skipping quest dialogue doesn't change the issue. Just the fact that I'm forced to fight a strictly story-related boss fight and cannot move on at all through the content until I do so, is (in my opinion) unnecessary. And, frankly, kind of silly.

I never said that quests should not be in place at all as a 'gating system' for reaching new areas and whatnot. Although, to answer your question, one possible thought is that you could simply make it so that all dungeons have a level requirement for entry and that's it. But that's too simple. No one wants anything just handed to them, right? Perhaps there is a quest line one must go on specifically for unlocking that dungeon. Or perhaps you must find a certain item that drops off a mob and use it as an entry token. These are far from the best ideas ever, but at least it would not block a level 50 player from doing Copperbell Mines for example just because they didn't finish their story quests.

(10-30-2013, 10:05 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: I don't think I can even begin to express how much I loathe the F.A.T.E system. It's clunky and feels very tacked on and is only relied upon so much simply because of how disproportionately efficient it is for gaining experience compared to the likes of dungeons and levequests.

How in the Nine hells would you get to 50 without having done copperbell? FATEing? cause if so, you probably have no idea how to function in a party and really should have just done the quest line provided to open those dungeons.(also of note until you do the first level 15 story quest in limsa you cannot even reach gridania or Ul'dah)

The FATE system and its unholy leveling powers has already caused quite a bit of problems basically because of people rushing to 50 without doing their story quests and learning the role their class is meant for. There a too many players as it is getting to the later dungeons with no idea what they should be doing because they just grabed the FATE train to rushed to 50, instead of running their dungeons a few times(maybe grinding for gear). Sure, some of the hard core die hard MMO people might be able to do that and get away with it, but the people playing it cause FF is in the title and the people who are just starting their first MMO are suffering because of this idea.

Also it wouldn't hurt for those die hards to spend some time grinding the lower dungeons and do their story quest and loving it, because then they could help those poor noobs learn the ins and outs of their class BEFORE they hit final dungeons and have tanks or healers drop the dungeon because someone is new(yes this happens more than you would think). If in stead of being so hard core must play end game only, players would chill out and play the entire game, they may just find they have more skilled players (and properly geared) to enjoy end game with.

****Disclaimer*****
This was not directed at anyone here, just had to rant a bit when I saw the topic.

=)

Kismet · **10-31-2013, 08:25 AM**

(10-31-2013, 07:54 AM)LeCard Wrote: How in the Nine hells would you get to 50 without having done copperbell? FATEing? cause if so, you probably have no idea how to function in a party and really should have just done the quest line provided to open those dungeons.(also of note until you do the first level 15 story quest in limsa you cannot even reach gridania or Ul'dah)

I understand what you're saying, but I only used Copperbell as a random example. XD Perhaps I should've said Stone Vigil or something... But the point I was originally trying to make still stands.

While I highly doubt that it is the norm to skip that much stuff, I honestly would not be surprised if there are people who mostly did FATEs and side quests all the way up to lv 50 without completing a large percentage of the main storyline. I mean, my WHM is almost 50 and I haven't even started the chain of quests that lead to Garuda yet... If doing a bunch of bland, run-around story quests weren't in my way, I could do it right now. <_<

K'dath · **10-31-2013, 09:22 AM**

I really wasn't gonna respond anymore on my earlier argument because I liked the note I ended on. I feel like it's a bad design choice and I dislike it, I would have it removed if it were within my power. You know what else I think are bad design choice? French doors and lime green paint. I find them needlessly garish. My house has them both and if I had the power to change them into something more pleasing to my sense of style I would. I'm not going to burn my house down to spite the doors though. And I'm not going to quit the whole game because I don't like the story.

I stand by my point though. They're making you run a single player campaign to unlock the MMO features. My ability to engage in multiplayer is affected by their decision to gate off content according to story progression. There were times where I was the correct level to go do a dungeon with my friends, but was not far enough in the story so I couldn't go with them. If I can't multiplayer with a massive amount of people online, then how can you call it an MMO? Instead of millions of people I can play with 'people who have done exactly this many quests only'. It damages my ability to be a part of that game's community, because regardless of my skill level or gear I am tethered to this small chunk of content.

It's not just dungeon content that's gated by the 'story progression' system. You can't access a personal bank, use the auction house, or have use of your mounts until you've completed the 'story' for those things. Those are arguably VERY important features that people who want to level crafting and/or gathering need. Is their enjoyment of the game less legitimate because instead of combat they'd rather do that? It's even worse for them because you can't use your crafting/gathering professions to further the story! So now they have to level a combat class just to get the basic tools they need to 'play the game for real' by their own terms. And people DO play this game for only those classes.

I feel like my enjoyment would have been vastly improved if I could have grind between 37-40 and said "Story? Just gimme cliff notes... blah blah ship blah dragon blah, got it. I'll do the wrap up dungeon a few times to get some better gear and work out this difficulty spike before I ship off for Garuda." Because I was excited to do Garuda!

...and then I spent two weeks at level 38 because I could not stand the story at that point. It was painful for me to do. After I finally slogged through the parts I found tortuously boring? Bam. 40-45 in less than 9 hours and I'm ready to do the boss I was excited about. But I lost all that time because the game arbitrarily slammed down a stop sign and said "No video games until you've done your homework."

That's all the story is... homework. Some of it I do like. Some of the subjects are fascinating and I can get into them (the primals are way cool). Some I simply don't mind and I can busy my way through. Others I can't see the appeal of and will likely never understand. That's why I failed every math class I was ever in and never dropped below an A- in History or Classic Lit.

I frankly just don't see the appeal in forcing a single-player narrative into an MMO. It feels awkward and disconnected from what is going on in the story and what is actually happening. I'm not going to say that's an objective statement, because I clearly am expressing my opinion, but the game itself maintains Story/Content segregation in regards to MANY things. I don't see why just giving the nod to players who level ahead and say 'Well, this way lies the lore and context you may find to be of merit. If not, that way is the pen were we keep all the grinders. You can move on to the next area when your hips are sufficiently chapped.'

(10-31-2013, 08:25 AM)Kismet Wrote:
(10-31-2013, 07:54 AM)LeCard Wrote: How in the Nine hells would you get to 50 without having done copperbell? FATEing? cause if so, you probably have no idea how to function in a party and really should have just done the quest line provided to open those dungeons.(also of note until you do the first level 15 story quest in limsa you cannot even reach gridania or Ul'dah)
While I highly doubt that it is the norm to skip that much stuff, I honestly would not be surprised if there are people who mostly did FATEs and side quests all the way up to lv 50 without completing a large percentage of the main storyline. I mean, my WHM is almost 50 and I haven't even started the chain of quests that lead to Garuda yet... If doing a bunch of bland, run-around story quests weren't in my way, I could do it right now. <_<

I have never, in my whole time as a gamer, been more frustrated and angry with a game that I was with the whole Corethas/Ishgardian questline... Nothing but swear words spewing out of my mouth for two hours unrelenting and any attempt to talk to me was met with a "F**K ISHGARD AND I HOPE BAHAMUT COMES BACK AND LEVELS THIS WHOLE MOUNTAIN". It was the worst time I've ever had in a game I've played willingly. And I've played Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition.

Maqali Qulaan · **10-31-2013, 11:54 AM**

(10-31-2013, 09:22 AM)K Wrote: "F**K ISHGARD AND I HOPE BAHAMUT COMES BACK AND LEVELS THIS WHOLE MOUNTAIN".

This is a sentiment I can wholeheartedly get behind.

Personally, I've been enjoying the story, and the content gating hasn't really hit me too bad since I've generally tended to only be a level to three levels beyond required, so while (especially) the first dungeons found me getting a bunch of gear that would have been great several levels prior, as a whole story/gameplay dealie has been fine for me.

Note the bold, please.

On the other hand, I finally persuaded my friend to try the game. I'd had an extra copy (since I'd had 1.0 and played it like, twice, and hated it, but thought I had to rebuy the game for 2.0- which I hadn't, leaving me holding a second copy). So I got him to install it and give it a go, thankfully well after the main slew of 1017 and 90k and all that rot was done with for the most part. He's playing, he's having a good time- mainly grinding through mobs and fates even from the start. He's an old-school EQ1 player and that's his preferred playstyle. Finally, he asks me, 'when do I get to a dungeon?' I told him 15, and he was excited because he was already getting close. So I had to burst his bubble... "Well, you know all those quests you didn't feel like doing? You have to do them."

I haven't seen him in game since, and every time I ask if he wants to play, he says 'yeah, maybe later, but first let's <insert something not FFXIV here>'. I'm pretty sure he's not coming back. I... truly don't see why a lot of this stuff has to be gated, especially the 'MMO' bits. I don't see why the game can't have an option for you (for instance) to hit 15 and grab a quest similar to the other optional unlocks, where you get to run out and talk to a guy by the dungeon and hey, you can do the dungeon. Or why (as is the case with many/most MMOs) you can't hit the right level, and join a grand company to work for your mount (yes, I know that's part of the quest, but it ought to be easy enough to include a flag, and Storm Sergeant Recruiter Wedge says, "Back off, guys, we've already nabbed Storm Corporal Biggs, you can't have him" and move along.

Short version? Forcing everyone to follow a single gameplay paradigm is bad, since people play MMOs for a variety of reasons. What works for one person (like me, who has loved everything but the number-soup errors and gilspammers) does not work for another.

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