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FreelanceWizard · **06-08-2015, 11:11 PM**

(06-08-2015, 10:41 PM)Verilys Wrote: I can't watch the videos from my current location, sadly! But though Elementals obviously exist and have real power (and that's relatively well-displayed in many questlines), do we have an unbiased source with regards to Succor? I kinda like the idea of it not being something of the Elementals' own power, but if they catch you using it, they'll smite you down. Which is probably exactly what happened to Sylphie's mother.

... Or maybe she was assassinated by Padjals. Adorable child-like bearers of wisdom? Or bloodthirsty beasts of Elemental Law?

Per the quest line, she used too much of her own aether healing others and died from that. The Thaumaturge quest line cross-verifies that expending too much of your own aether can be harmful or fatal.

The question of "how powerful are the elementals now" is a bit of a grey area in lore, IMO. To me, at least, their powers do seem significantly diminished, given that the Garleans had more or less free run, the wards on Amdapor Keep and the Amdapori Township are gone, the Lambs of Dalamud and voidsent are running amok, Ala Mhigan refugees are making their way in, and so on. Religion and culture take a long time to change, and given that the elementals will regain strength if the Shroud is cared for (which the Gridanians, for a variety of reasons, would want to do), it seems unlikely that it would change significantly, particularly in a mere 5 years.

Would one want to taunt the elementals and risk the greenwrath in the 7th Astral? It still seems unwise for reasons including the rumors that surely still fly about it, the Gridanians who will certainly try to stop you, and the possibility of running into that one elemental who trips you with a root at the wrong moment, sending you falling down a ravine to your ignoble demise -- or happens to be big, powerful, and angry still. It's for that reason that any non-Padjal who'd come across Succor, IMO, would keep it very, very quiet. However, from the overhead OOC viewpoint, it seems implausible to me that the elementals could strip you of magical power, much less strike you dead instantly for doing something they don't like.

For now.

V'aleera · **06-08-2015, 11:30 PM**

(06-08-2015, 10:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Um... every tree is an Elemental. Every stream, every boulder. They are the world.

They're a forest. One forest. A big forest, sure. If elementals exist outside the Black Shroud, they haven't exhibited totalitarian tendencies that their exceptional Shroud brethren have. They haven't even exhibited any signs of sympathy or alliance to the Black Shroud elementals.

Quote:I don't think we're going to get a bigger stick than a moon crashing into the planet?

Mortals already put the elementals under threat before; the elementals were so terrified they felt the need to flood the whole place clean. And mortals did that without even meaning to!

Imagine if you will a legion of Black Mages and White Mages with stolen succor. Then imagine that these mages want something from the elementals and threaten to aggressively and specifically rip the life and aether out of the Black Shroud if they don't get what they want.

Those fairies are going to need a bigger flood.

That's not even getting into the meta power that mortals have e.g. the capacity to create primals.

Verilys · **06-08-2015, 11:34 PM**

(06-08-2015, 11:11 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Per the quest line, she used too much of her own aether healing others and died from that. The Thaumaturge quest line cross-verifies that expending too much of your own aether can be harmful or fatal.

Well, that's what they said happened. They're not just going to go about and admit to murdering their citizens. Sylphie's mother documented that the use of her magics were angering the Elementals -- something then that was shown not to be the case for Conjury in the quests. So... what would Sylphie's mother have been casting to anger the Elementals and then soon die thereafter? Cool

FreelanceWizard · **06-08-2015, 11:40 PM**

(06-08-2015, 11:34 PM)Verilys Wrote: Well, that's what they said happened. They're not just going to go about and admit to murdering their citizens. Sylphie's mother documented that the use of her magics were angering the Elementals -- something then that was shown not to be the case for Conjury in the quests. So... what would Sylphie's mother have been casting to anger the Elementals and then soon die thereafter?

Fair enough. Smile

I don't really feel that the Fane would assassinate someone who was getting too close to independently stumbling across Succor, but then again, they do have a very strong motivation to keep it under wraps. It's an interesting theory, at any rate, and theoretically one could hang a conspiracy theory character on that hook, perhaps?

Verilys · **06-08-2015, 11:48 PM**

(06-08-2015, 11:40 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Fair enough. I don't really feel that the Fane would assassinate someone who was getting too close to independently stumbling across Succor, but then again, they do have a very strong motivation to keep it under wraps. It's an interesting theory, at any rate, and theoretically one could hang a conspiracy theory character on that hook, perhaps?

It's a fun way to think about things, at the very least! The reason why WHM discussions tend to be rather controversial is simply because there's a lot that we don't know. It's in a place where SquareEnix could easily crush anyone's character based on White Magic based on a single questline. But for that very same reason, there's a lot of wiggle room to come up with strange, yet plausible theories.

Mind you, I don't play or intend to play a White Magic-based character, but the way that conversations unfold around the topic are really interesting to me.

LiadansWhisper · **06-09-2015, 02:26 AM**

(06-08-2015, 11:34 PM)Verilys Wrote: Well, that's what they said happened. They're not just going to go about and admit to murdering their citizens. Sylphie's mother documented that the use of her magics were angering the Elementals -- something then that was shown not to be the case for Conjury in the quests. So... what would Sylphie's mother have been casting to anger the Elementals and then soon die thereafter?

Sylphie's mother was an untrained Hearer who didn't understand what she was Hearing and, apparently, couldn't control the voices in her head. Â She heard the rage of Elementals being tormented by the changes that were forced by a combination of Dalamud approaching Eorzea and other forces working to disrupt and destroy the ley lines running through the land.

The Elementals didn't kill her. Â If they had, they would have owned to it - they have absolutely no qualms about taking responsibility for offing people who piss them off. Â They make it very, very obvious it was them.

LiadansWhisper · **06-09-2015, 02:32 AM**

(06-08-2015, 08:50 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Not true. If a character can learn the spells either by the teachings of another or from knowledge stored within a soul crystal, they can perform white magic. It has nothing to do with the so-called 'blessing' of the elementals which to my knowledge has never, ever been mentioned in-game.

Some Jobs actually use the Soul Crystal to pass on the knowledge of the skills involved in the Job (Scholar is, in a way, one of them, since the Soul Crystal carries the Fairy who bypasses the learning you'd otherwise have had to go through to master Scholar abilities). Â White Mage is not one of them. Â The Soul Crystal you receive during the quest doesn't have the knowledge of White Magic in it. Â It simply marks you as A-Towa-Can'ts chosen heir and provides you with the in to learn Succor from the Seedseer siblings.

And it has been mentioned in-game.

Quote:Literally all the elementals did was bury the ruins of Amdapor in the forest. Even Raya-O-Senna tells you that much:

Show Content

Spoiler

Except that's not all you find out from Raya-O-Senna, and that's a tiny, tiny portion of the Lore surrounding White Magic and Amdapor.

Quote:Bottom line: you can play a white mage. Can we please stop policing RP now?

I've never said you can't play a White Mage, dear. Â You can play whatever you want. Â I reserve the right to say, "Hey, that doesn't fit Lore." Â If that pisses you off, I'm sorry, but it is the truth. Â You have the power to do whatever you want in the game. Â That is entirely your decision and absolutely no one else can tell you that you can't do something. Â But we can disagree with you and point out that you are mistaken about the justifications you are making for your RP, from a Lore perspective.

V'aleera · **06-09-2015, 02:39 AM**

(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: White Mage is not one of them.

Yes, it is. Theoretically, any skillset or set of knowledge you can imagine can be passed on through a soulstone. Beyond simple combat jobs, there could be master chef soulstones, the soulstone of a supremely elegant and mannered butler, the soulstone of a particularly gifted accountant and so on.

The explicit function of a soulstone, any soulstone, is to contain the memories, experiences, and knowledge of the soul that inhabits or created the stone. Just because the soulstone in the WHM storyline was not the chief facilitator of the PC learning White Magic does not change the fact that those are the mechanics of the soulstones that have been laid out in the lore.

It's silly, it's lame, and it's a pretty animu styled shortcut. But it's the one we're stuck with.

LiadansWhisper · **06-09-2015, 02:44 AM**

(06-09-2015, 02:39 AM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: White Mage is not one of them.
Yes, it is.

The explicit function of a soulstone, any soulstone, is to contain the memories, experiences, and knowledge of the soul that inhabits or created the stone. Just because the soulstone in the WHM storyline did not do so does not change the fact that those are the mechanics of the soulstones that have been laid out in the lore.

It's silly, it's lame, and it's a pretty animu styled shortcut. But it's the one we're stuck with.

Soul Stones appear to be treated differently by different Jobs in the questlines. Â They are not consistently magically granting their owners abilities. Â In several cases (Paladin and White Mage come to mind, but I know there are more), you still have to learn the magic/abilities through training with another source.

Edited to Add: And no, I'm not trying to say that you can't become a White Mage. I'm saying that this isn't the way to magically know how to cast Succor. Or, rather, it's possible, but would need to be a very unique thing and considering that you would have received little to no actual training in the discipline, you'd probably be prone to fucking it up. And there are other ways to get around the restrictions via RP and story, but people seem to prefer to spring fully-formed into the guise of one of the most powerful schools of magic without any difficulty, despite what the Lore actually says about White Magic and who can access it.

I actually hate that SE wrote the Job as narrowly as they did, because I think it's shitty for the playerbase. I'm hopeful that they'll relax the restrictions a bit with the continuation quests into Heavensward, or at least go back to the 1.0-version of "how to become a White Mage," which was much more open and accessible for RP purposes.

ArmachiA · **06-09-2015, 02:49 AM**

To me, White Mage isn't one of them simply because you have to get passed a sentient being that controls who has access. You may be able to access the Succor for one spell, but you certainly won't be able to do it again once the Elementals catch wind. Right now there's no real substantial way to play a WHM simply because the Elementals are going "lolno" even being trained by a Padjal doesn't guarantee anything, because you can learn but the Elementals will still block access. Elementals control the Succor, no one else, and that's super strict in lore.

However, the Devs did hint at loosening those purse strings a little, so I'm interesting in seeing what they do so more people can have access.

And does every White Mage discussion have to devolve into "Why won't you play with me?" and get turned into a big ol fight over who's "elitist" and who's not?

Aduu Avagnar · **06-09-2015, 02:51 AM**

(06-09-2015, 02:49 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: And does every White Mage discussion have to devolve into "Why won't you play with me?" and get turned into a big ol fight over who's "elitist" and who's not?

Because some people seem to take disagreements over lore interpretations personally.

LiadansWhisper · **06-09-2015, 02:54 AM**

(06-09-2015, 02:49 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: However, the Devs did hint at loosening those purse strings a little, so I'm interesting in seeing what they do so more people can have access.

I'm really looking forward to see what they will do, too. Have my fingers crossed, as it were.

Quote:And does every White Mage discussion have to devolve into "Why won't you play with me?" and get turned into a big ol fight over who's "elitist" and who's not?

For the same reason that they tend to devolve into, "The Elementals are powerless," "the Elementals don't exist," and, my personal favorite, "The Elementals are doing something I don't like so they're evil."

People don't like restrictions, and I think that, in general, they don't like it when controlling entities (whether deities or demigods or whatever) are able to block what they want to do. Â People just don't like limitations, and instead of seeing them as a spark for RP (because what is a quest if there are no obstacles?), they see them as "unfair" and want to ignore them.

V'aleera · **06-09-2015, 03:33 AM**

(06-09-2015, 02:49 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: because you can learn but the Elementals will still block access.

The elementals are not capable of doing this. Again, the elementals may be the original source of Succor, but they do not control it. If they could take away Succor on a whim, why were the White Mages able to abuse it to such excess? Why did the elementals have to kill them all and wipe their civilization out of history in order to protect the secrets of the magic?

Because they have no control over the magic, save for the control granted by their own inherent might. It's like Ishgard and chocobos, really.

Now, the elementals may attack someone who came into illicit control of Succor. That would be fairly logical. But nothing in lore suggests that they can just flip the proverbial switch and off goes the magic.

Sin · **06-09-2015, 06:37 AM**

(06-09-2015, 03:33 AM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:49 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: because you can learn but the Elementals will still block access.
The elementals are not capable of doing this. Again, the elementals may be the original source of Succor, but they do not control it. If they could take away Succor on a whim, why were the White Mages able to abuse it to such excess? Why did the elementals have to kill them all and wipe their civilization out of history in order to protect the secrets of the magic?

Because they have no control over the magic, save for the control granted by their own inherent might. It's like Ishgard and chocobos, really.

Now, the elementals may attack someone who came into illicit control of Succor. That would be fairly logical. But nothing in lore suggests that they can just flip the proverbial switch and off goes the magic.

Does anyone have some lore evidence of the Elementals turning off Succor like a switch?

As far as I know I only ever see them get pissed off and try and impose their might to end the use. Or even use the forest to very literally hide the art and prevent others from accessing it physically.

It might be that Succor is granted or learned or siphoned or what have you, but once you know it... you know it for good or bad.

That is to say,I think the elementals block access physically... Either by beating people up who try and learn it, or literally covering an entire city in roots. I don't think they have a magical on/off switch for Succor, but I'd love to be shown evidence to the contrary.

Gone. · **06-09-2015, 07:17 AM**

(06-08-2015, 10:31 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: What do you mean what does 1.0 have to do with 2.0? The Calamity was 1.0... does that mean it does not exist because it is now 2.0? I don't understand. This is the lore of the world as of five years ago. Just because every bit of 1.0 lore has not resurfaced immediately into 2.0 does not mean that it ceases to exist?

Much of 1.0 was officially retconned and dusted up under the rug. If it is not mention in 2.0, it's not of importance. If it does get mentioned, then sure, I'll change my mind, but until that point, it's an exercise in futility and expecting the community to know about it, much less actually give any thought or regard to matter, is frankly absurd. We can't play 1.0 anymore and SQX doesn't want us to remember it; there IS a reason 2.0 is so seamless in its presentation and this would be why.

(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Some Jobs actually use the Soul Crystal to pass on the knowledge of the skills involved in the Job (Scholar is, in a way, one of them, since the Soul Crystal carries the Fairy who bypasses the learning you'd otherwise have had to go through to master Scholar abilities). Â White Mage is not one of them. Â The Soul Crystal you receive during the quest doesn't have the knowledge of White Magic in it. Â It simply marks you as A-Towa-Can'ts chosen heir and provides you with the in to learn Succor from the Seedseer siblings.

And it has been mentioned in-game.

Except that's not all you find out from Raya-O-Senna, and that's a tiny, tiny portion of the Lore surrounding White Magic and Amdapor.

That's why the PC holds up their soul crystal every time they learn a new skill, right? I mean, it happens every five levels regardless of which job you're playing as.

Please, show us where in-game with some screenshots.

(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Except that's not all you find out from Raya-O-Senna, and that's a tiny, tiny portion of the Lore surrounding White Magic and Amdapor.

Once again, give us proof. I don't recall it at all and I've always paid a great deal of attention to job quests.

(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I've never said you can't play a White Mage, dear. Â You can play whatever you want. Â I reserve the right to say, "Hey, that doesn't fit Lore." Â If that pisses you off, I'm sorry, but it is the truth. Â You have the power to do whatever you want in the game. Â That is entirely your decision and absolutely no one else can tell you that you can't do something. Â But we can disagree with you and point out that you are mistaken about the justifications you are making for your RP, from a Lore perspective.

I don't even play a white mage anymore, so why are you turning this on me?

And really? 'Dear'? Could you be any more flagrantly condescending?

You can disagree if you want, but please do us all a favor and bring something other than hearsay. Show me in the game where it's referred to, otherwise you're just arguing for the sake.

(06-09-2015, 02:49 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: And does every White Mage discussion have to devolve into "Why won't you play with me?" and get turned into a big ol fight over who's "elitist" and who's not?

Truth is, I don't want to RP with you, Liadan, Nako, etc. I find your collective approach to RP stifling, restrictive, patronizing and counter-intuitive to the experience at a base level and I will not tolerate anyone bullying a new player away from playing a classic Final Fantasy job that's been there from the very first game, not when there's a number of legitimate possibilities that make it plausible.

Heaven forbid we welcome people with open arms as opposed to shunning them for something completely and utterly inane. Treat people as we'd like to be treated, etc. Is that really so hard to understand?

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RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes