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Gone. · **07-29-2015, 03:01 AM**

(07-26-2015, 06:19 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: (The 5 Esoterics for running the leveling roulette is particularly insulting. Really? Really, really?)

Especially with the current skill level of the average player base these days (i.e. not even trying). Most every leveling roulette involves me carrying my party through the storm.

(07-26-2015, 06:19 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: They also need to price their items on the assumption that players will be gearing up more than just a single class at a time. What's the point of the armory system if they never use it? That's something that's always puzzled me about their progression design. Always just the one class, and you're not allowed to mess with others. I can't help but wonder if retention numbers would be improved if players could gear up, say, three jobs at a time at a decent clip, to improve variety in gameplay and let people mess around with their roles a bit.

People always seem to be baffled when I say the game punishes you even more for multi-classing than it does just rolling another character, something already tedious to begin with.

The reason, however, is simple: at least when it's a new character I have all those first-time bonuses for my job of choice, a luxury not granted when trying to level off-jobs.

I do WHM, AST and DRG on Vetiver. Used to do BRD but I'm not crazy with the direction they took it in Heavensward so I dropped it. Fortunately I already have almost all the Law gear I want thanks to the reasonable pricing and various methods to obtain, something I can't say about the new AF equipment... WHM is too stuffy for Vetiver, but the AST and DRG sets? Must have for cosmetics.

On the positive, at least they'll make it quicker/easier months from now...?

(07-27-2015, 06:04 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: It's pointless to you because the gear doesn't do anything or you other than look pretty (although if it's so pointless, I do wonder why you even bother grinding it, and why you care about it in the first place). It isn't pointless to people who are using that gear as a springboard towards further progression.

The fact is, the game is designed - and quite deliberately so - to be a gear grind. That is how they differentiate the different tiers, and that is how they keep the new content "interesting" to players who have already farmed the hell out of current content.

This is literally how every raid-focused MMO works.

Well, except for two things:

1. Raiding is such a minor portion of the game's content in general.
2. You can overgear everything but savage mode Alex with the base level token equipment. The same was true for all of 2.0 and Coil.

All that really leaves is aesthetics/glamour/whatever outside of that bizarre, niche group of players that get some sort of gratification from watching numbers rise in negligible amounts.

Now, maybe it's just me, but glamour should not take months at a time, especially in one of the most RP-friendly online RPGs ever made.

Cato · **07-29-2015, 03:08 AM**

I think it's perfectly acceptable for desirable/aesthetically pleasing gear to be fairly difficult to obtain initially. The 'carrot on a stick' strategy is very effective and has been part of MMO's for quite a long time. We know that when the current content becomes outdated it'll be a lot easier to obtain so I don't see the issue with letting the current gear be special, time consuming to obtain and highly sought after for a while.

I also don't believe for a second that it's only a 'tiny portion' of the community who enjoys increasing their character's gear and power. Quite a lot of players seem to be fond of it - even if they don't invest in the min/max mentality.

Gone. · **07-29-2015, 03:12 AM**

Legitimate challenge is one thing, but let's not confuse tedium with difficulty.

There is nothing hard about farming for pretty things to wear whatsoever. Bland due to poor drop rates and pricing? You bet.

Cato · **07-29-2015, 03:20 AM**

(07-29-2015, 03:12 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Legitimate challenge is one thing, but let's not confuse tedium with difficulty.

There is nothing hard about farming for pretty things to wear whatsoever. Bland due to poor drop rates and pricing? You bet.

It doesn't necessarily have to be hard - it's merely done that way to encourage investment and give people a reason to stick around. There's only so much content that the developers can pump out with each new expansion/patch and so players find themselves having to work towards quite a few things.

Is it tedious? Arguably so - but it serves a purpose and I don't believe that the game would be as successful as it is currently if people could just get online and acquire everything within a few hours.

As for low drop rates? Again, that comes with the territory. As frustrating as it can be it also serves a purpose - encouraging people to tackle content over and over and therefore serve as an additional incentive and means of ensuring that there's a healthy flow of players going through new and old content alike.

Ultimately great looking gear - putting aside the subjective nature of what is 'great looking' - is a luxury rather than a necessity.

Artigan · **07-29-2015, 06:05 AM**

(07-23-2015, 02:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I'm not sure exactly why I feel this way, but for whatever reason this patch is the one that's killed my interest.

Warning: Senseless rant follows!

Show Content

SpoilerFirst of all, Alexander NM has an absolutely awful loot system. If you got four weeklies like the WoD weekly instead of having to lot against 7 other players, it would have been fine! But no, unless you specifically join a farming party AND everyone stays in that party through the whole 4 runs of each floor, you're going to be running the same crap over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and look, geeze, this is dumb, why is this even a thing?!

And then Esoterics. I was kind of hoping Law was indicative of how things would go in the future (only, you know, obviously a bit slower because Law is insanely easy to get), but nope! Still absolutely impossible to gear up more than one job with content-relevant gear. The dripfeed is real!

This is particularly annoying because it was so easy to get AF armor and even your baseline relic back in 2.0. Now you have go through the absurdly drawn-out tomestone grind to get even a single set for the glamour. Really? Dick move, guys. Dick move.

And of course I have zero interest in Alex Savage for fairly obvious reasons, so that is content that may as well not exist to me.

So I'm done. I've got nothin' left except RP, and I'm not gonna lie, that's not enough on its own to sustain my interest in any given game. The story was great, the graphics and artwork are pretty, the new zones are a major improvement, flying is not as pointless as I thought it would be, and I like the look of quite a few of the new sets, so there's that. But... you know... the gameplay. Machinist turned out to be... not quite what I was hoping for. And my tolerance for absolute repetition only goes so far. Running the same thing once a week, or even every other day, is something I can stomach. But a minimum of four times a week, with very high odds of having to do more? Are you even trying anymore, SE?

I just feel like SE is not respecting my time. They're trying too hard to get me to waste it on their repetitive content, and it's not making me happy. My motivation to login has been shot to hell.

Oh, well, whatever. I guess this is the curse of subscription-based themepark MMORPGs. Always gotta have people chasing that carrot.

Unfortunately for them, it doesn't work on me. Not when you force me to wait for weeks before letting me chew on that carrot, and it's not even a bloody cake!

Note: I am aware that most of my complaints here are nothing new and could be said about a lot of 2.x's patch content. But I expected better from Heavensward, and more of the same is all we got? Not feelin' it, man.

You're more than likely burnout due to your lifestyle and being able to play all the time (which doesn't discount your points).

If I may suggest: try something other than FFXIV each week: working out, figuring out a good diet plan and preparing your own meals, trying a practical martial art (Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) Yoga, or whatever meets your fancy that isn't based in a virtual world (granted if you budget allows for such distractions).

Yet I agree FFXIV has a major tendency to play the grind game in respect to collecting "tokens" to purchase items, and keeping those "tokens" exclusive or locked to certain dungeons which becomes tedious.

The same issues of 2.0 unfortunately are back.

LiadansWhisper · **07-29-2015, 11:54 AM**

(07-29-2015, 03:01 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(07-27-2015, 06:04 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: It's pointless to you because the gear doesn't do anything or you other than look pretty (although if it's so pointless, I do wonder why you even bother grinding it, and why you care about it in the first place). Â It isn't pointless to people who are using that gear as a springboard towards further progression.

The fact is, the game is designed - and quite deliberately so - to be a gear grind. Â That is how they differentiate the different tiers, and that is how they keep the new content "interesting" to players who have already farmed the hell out of current content.

This is literally how every raid-focused MMO works.

Well, except for two things:

1. Raiding is such a minor portion of the game's content in general.
2. You can overgear everything but savage mode Alex with the base level token equipment. The same was true for all of 2.0 and Coil.

All that really leaves is aesthetics/glamour/whatever outside of that bizarre, niche group of players that get some sort of gratification from watching numbers rise in negligible amounts.

Now, maybe it's just me, but glamour should not take months at a time, especially in one of the most RP-friendly online RPGs ever made.

Raiding may be a "minor" thing to you, but this gear is explicitly intended for gearing up for Alexander Savage. Â That's why it's the ilvl that it is. Â And that is why it is gated.

Like everything else, the gated aspect will go away when Alexander Savage is no longer the current content. Â Sorry, but if you don't want to grind it up now, you'll have to wait for it later.

Cato · **07-29-2015, 12:35 PM**

It's not really Square Enix's obligation to 'respect someone's time'. The game is set up in such a way as to ensure that if people fall behind there's plenty of ways for them to catch up. If they happen to miss a content patch by the time they return there will still be people running previous content. It's a luxury that many other MMO's don't have.

There's literally no rush to do anything - it's all in everybody's head. The game would run out of steam very quickly if people could acquire everything they desired within a matter of days. I also think that some people just have more time on their hands than they know what to do with and then end up getting frustrated that they can't constantly get instant gratification.

Or maybe they're pressed for time...but again, they can pick up and play the game whenever without missing anything...other than seasonal events, that is.

Zyrusticae · **07-30-2015, 06:08 AM**

I just have to remind folks that, for whatever reason, Square Enix still has yet to give us an actual subscriber count or even a new concurrent user record - and that, I suspect, is likely in large part because those numbers just aren't something to be particularly proud of. (That being said, I would at least expect the concurrent user record to have been broken during Heavensward's launch - but surely they would have told us by now if such a thing occurred?)

Don't get me wrong - the game is definitely quality. But it's still a themepark MMORPG, and it's like to be prone to the same trials and tribulations that other themepark MMORPGs are, even if it is a step or three above the others.

(07-29-2015, 03:01 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Especially with the current skill level of the average player base these days (i.e. not even trying). Most every leveling roulette involves me carrying my party through the storm.

It's sad how many DPS players don't even know how to play their class... and the game never gives them feedback on how they're doing so they don't even realize how poorly they're doing it.

I swear, I shouldn't be near the top of the DPS charts when I'm the bloody MT, but that's still a thing that happens today.

(07-29-2015, 03:01 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: [...]
On the positive, at least they'll make it quicker/easier months from now...?

Hah! All the more reason to take a break, I suppose.

(07-29-2015, 06:05 AM)Artigan Wrote: You're more than likely burnout due to your lifestyle and being able to play all the time (which doesn't discount your points).

If I may suggest: try something other than FFXIV each week: working out, figuring out a good diet plan and preparing your own meals, trying a practical martial art (Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) Yoga, or whatever meets your fancy that isn't based in a virtual world (granted if you budget allows for such distractions).

Yet I agree FFXIV has a major tendency to play the grind game in respect to collecting "tokens" to purchase items, and keeping those "tokens" exclusive or locked to certain dungeons which becomes tedious.

The same issues of 2.0 unfortunately are back.

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I have pleeeenty of other things to occupy myself with. Especially food. I love messing with new recipes and tweaking old ones.

But, yes, I have probably been playing the game too much regardless. Hitting 60 in a second class within the third week is likely a sign of too much time investment.

Still, I admit, the weekly caps have had an adverse psychological effect on me. I always feel guilty for not at least capping out on my tomestones every week, because none of that rolls around to the next week (and why not? This is one of the weirdest oversights in the game IMO). And that guilt, to be frank, was messing with my head to the point where I could not enjoy the game anymore, because, yeah, it starts to feel like work - like an obligation - rather than like something I do for entertainment.

Which is a big part of why I would like them to add more alternatives for obtaining esoterics, so I wouldn't feel so bloody obligated to run Expert Roulette (and Trial and Frontlines roulettes) day-in and day-out. What reason could they possibly have for not sticking Esoterics on everything?

(07-29-2015, 12:35 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's not really Square Enix's obligation to 'respect someone's time'. The game is set up in such a way as to ensure that if people fall behind there's plenty of ways for them to catch up. If they happen to miss a content patch by the time they return there will still be people running previous content. It's a luxury that many other MMO's don't have.

There's literally no rush to do anything - it's all in everybody's head. The game would run out of steam very quickly if people could acquire everything they desired within a matter of days. I also think that some people just have more time on their hands than they know what to do with and then end up getting frustrated that they can't constantly get instant gratification.

Or maybe they're pressed for time...but again, they can pick up and play the game whenever without missing anything...other than seasonal events, that is.

But they can do better.

Show Content

Spoiler'd for length
I mean, it's a serious problem for Square Enix if a significant proportion of players just drop off in the months following a major expansion waiting for the next patch. The whole point of something like Gold Saucer (and the accompanying chocobo races and Triple Triad) was to provide that incentive for players to log in long past the point where the content is exhausted. We need more stuff like that to keep things fresh and keep people subscribed consistently instead of jumping in for some quick sightseeing and then running off like a bunch of MMO tourists.

Mostly, I just want to see them add more sandbox-y stuff and take a few steps back from this content mill themepark style stuff. To be frank, I don't think this is a winning strategy over the long haul - over the short term it works out, sure, but people are going to get tired of the same formula eventually. No series, no single game, is exempt from this. That's why we get things like the 'players as content' PvP gankboxes and MOBAs and other such designs that attempt to get around the problem entirely (and frankly, it works - as long as the base gameplay is actually good, that is). Obviously, I don't mean I want them to ape those games, but to at least try to carve out its own niche instead of being 'World of Final Fantasy the Third'.

The really blatant ripping off of other themepark games got their proverbial foot in the door and a whole lot of good will, but I think that design - that whole paradigm - is over now. Its time is done. This is their chance to really blow peoples' minds and make the game all it can be. But if they just keep throwing more of the same at everyone, the game is just going to stagnate. The population will dip over time, followed by spikes of activity around patches and expansions, and then just dip further and further again over greater lengths of time, just like you see with most other themepark MMORPGs.

They need to start thinking laterally. Not so much vertically. You can only build the tower up so high before it keels over under its own weight. The base just isn't strong enough yet. So much potential in this genre... why should they settle for 'just good enough to survive'?

And, I mean... this is the one game with the largest and most frequent content updates on the entire planet. And it's still just not enough. There is literally no way they can keep this up, either, judging from how much they've been overworking the team simply trying to get Heavensward out the door. It's just not good enough. I won't presume to know exactly how they should improve the game (outside of combat and character creation, anyway - I've got thousands of words with which to expound on those), but the game already has a really strong framework and just needs more built on top of its foundation. More that isn't just... you know... another handful of dungeons, another raid tier, and another batch of short-lived story quests.

I want to have reasons to stay subscribed to the game. I don't like dropping it a month out after every major update. I like a lot of what's already there, but... when I'm done, I'm done. There's just nothing to provide that incentive to come back before that next update. And I know I'm far from being alone in that.

That's fine by me, but is it fine for Square Enix? I suppose time will tell...

Melodia · **07-30-2015, 08:16 AM**

I agree, SE can do better.

I find myself playing less and less and it has primarily to do with the game's seeming obsession with Alexander (or, insert raid content here). Be it farming normal mode for ugly gear or having some magical ilv for the savage mode....the game seems driven to focus on this. This or scrips. Or DPS number needing to be this or that. That's all I hear about lately and guess what?

I'm exhausted by it.

I don't even do it and yet I am tired by it all. This isn't fun. My wife said it best... "We're slaves to the Eorzean clock now."

That's why I have stepped away from it. I won't do it. Capping Esoterics? That means I am a slave to the weekly reset. I purposely refused to cap my esoterics last week for that exact reason. Because I don't care to become a slave to any timer in this game. It's why I have now changed my playing to a few days a week as opposed to every day. I'd rather explore the wastelands in Fallout for the millionth time than to grind....grind....grind.

Until SE can add some more fun andÂ *le gasp* casualÂ content to draw me in, I'll be keeping it on part time at best because this raiding/grindingÂ stuff is burning me out.

DeathGodSkeith · **07-30-2015, 10:06 AM**

I have never seen such a group of whiney ungrateful players. You have new gear and you're complaining because you can't have it now. You're complaining because in the first part of the expansion you dont have enough to do? They will still be patching in content for 3.1, 3.2 3.3 and so forth. Take a step back stop moaning and groaning and please realize that the player base is made up of more than just Rpers. You cant get AF2 in its entirety right now. Well its not just for glamour and you have to accept that. Complaining about not enough casual things to do. Anything that is not Alex Savage falls in line with being casual. So most of the content is actual casual. People stop complaining, be patient and actually try to enjoy the game instead of trying to nitpick every little thing.

Mercer · **07-30-2015, 10:33 AM**

It is time to rest, Zyrusticae. You've fought hard and long but complaining about raiding on a fan board about role playing is not going to change the tide at all. You'd have a better chance at taking this to the official forums but past precedence for the genre does not speak well on the chances of change.Â

The nature of successful modern MMOs requires a gear grind to keep both casual and hardcore player bases engaged. There have been instances of older MMOs having a more horizontal experience but those simply no longer exist. Catering to a smaller crowd is not successful or sustainable for as an expensive genre as MMO.

XIV is still very much a fairy tale story of a game, from likely the worst launch of any MMO in history to being one of the most successful if not the MOST successful of the post WoW era. Game mechanics were streamlined in a WoW fashion while keeping a distinct XIV flare to it. It's success is largely reliant on what WoW has done right and wrong in the last five years and it shows.

There will be more casual content coming but so will hardcore content. Generally patches alternate between catering to the two styles, from more casual 24 man raids to expanded questlines to new systems. 3.1 will likely give more attention to the casual crowd.

Heavensward is full of growing pains for the community. Many players now were not around for 2.0 when we were in a similar position. There is a ton of time, story and content dedicated to the leveling experience that left the end game hollow for more casual players. This changed during 2.1 and continued to change as time went on.

Give it time or take a break. If the game isn't catering to you, don't play it. Walk away and if you feel like coming back, do so. If you don't then XIV just isn't for you anymore and that's ok. It's ok to outgrow MMOs, game or RP. It's ok to say "I'm done". You haven't wasted time, you've had many hours of enjoyment out of the game and genre. Those are memories and people that you won't forget.

Unless you've been unhappy playing this entire time then you might want to reconsider your life.

Melodia · **07-30-2015, 10:37 AM**

(07-30-2015, 10:06 AM)DeathGodSkeith Wrote: I have never seen such a group of whiney ungrateful players. You have new gear and you're complaining because you can't have it now. You're complaining because in the first part of the expansion you dont have enough to do? They will still be patching in content for 3.1, 3.2 3.3 and so forth. Take a step back stop moaning and groaning and please realize that the player base is made up of more than just Rpers. You cant get AF2 in its entirety right now. Well its not just for glamour and you have to accept that. Complaining about not enough casual things to do. Anything that is not Alex Savage falls in line with being casual. So most of the content is actual casual. People stop complaining, be patient and actually try to enjoy the game instead of trying to nitpick every little thing.

You misunderstand. I don't care about getting that AFÂ gear right now or at any time really. My post was primarily about....you know it doesn't matter. But please...no one who is posting a complaint about the grind ever called raiders "jerks" or "whiners" so please back off the name calling. It's unpleasant and unnecessary.

Virella · **07-30-2015, 10:48 AM**

(07-30-2015, 06:08 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: <snip>

The part you speak about DPS is the sole reason why I run my roulettes on my DPS only. I really, really grew to dislikes bad DPS over the past few months; admittedly I was spoiled due to running my experts only with my old FC, aka with players who knew their class, and actually tried to pump out some damage. (in truth we were all very competitive about who could do the most damage!)

I really wish we could just slap our ACT logs into party chat at times. Not that I need them to prove someone is doing shit damage. I know how fast mobs die when I'm on my dps, and how quickly it goes from thereon depends onto the other damage dealer. However they do not seem to believe me when I point out they could maybe look in their damage, because the damage feels low (and add with other people it goes a lot quicker, and that I know my damage is just fine). Raw numbers would at least dispel that illusion of them thinking they are playing their class right.

But I guess I will get branded an elitists these days for wanting people to know how to play their class. I am not asking for you to play it top notch, using off GCD skills after using an instant ability, stutterstepping like a boss ect, but simply keeping your rotation going and have a tiny bit of knowledge of your class.

Kage · **07-30-2015, 10:57 AM**

My suggestion about all the posts about frustrations with the design? Make a new topic, most likely in the official forums or post a vent about it.

They're not about the patch notes or the actual updates.

All these same "issues" have been in place since 2.0 launch.

Anyways, check out your Refer a Friend emails! SOME OF YOU MIGHT HAVE GOLD FEATHERS FOR A TWIN MOUNT OR MORE.

Feathers are turned into the calamity salvager.
Also noted, I found some dungeon gear and I think soldiery gear or was it the Poetics Magitek gear... They had some unaugmented/unupgraded i100+ items and some dungeon gear included the Foestriker's stuff. For those with silver feathers.

Gegenji · **07-30-2015, 11:01 AM**

(07-30-2015, 10:57 AM)Kage Wrote: Anyways, check out your Refer a Friend emails! SOME OF YOU MIGHT HAVE GOLD FEATHERS FOR A TWIN MOUNT OR MORE.

Feathers are turned into the calamity salvager.
Also noted, I found some dungeon gear and I think soldiery gear or was it the Poetics Magitek gear... They had some unaugmented/unupgraded i100+ items and some dungeon gear included the Foestriker's stuff. For those with silver feathers.

Did that just get turned on this week? I'm not particularly attentive about when I have mail and such, but I don't remember seeing the mail symbol for it. I was Recruited, so I'm assuming I should have some Silver Feathers and the /fistbump emote. I'm just hoping transferring away from the server my sister's on (the one who recruited me) hasn't ruined the chances of that, but that wouldn't make much sense. The actual recruiting is tracked through Mogstation through accounts, right?

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