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LiadansWhisper · **11-06-2015, 03:37 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:32 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: I would argue they are often victims of poor socioeconomic conditions. As others have said, very few sex workers would choose that work over an equally well paid job that would fit their own particular needs.

Since prostitution is a crime in 49 states, you could look at it from the same viewpoint as people who engage in petty crimes. Most of them are not doing so out of some desire to be criminals, but because they don't see another opportunity for themselves.

In the case of other types of sex workers, I'm not sure that it's socioeconomic conditions, and I'm not sure that the same viewpoint necessarily applies. If anything, the biggest issue is going to be the social pressure that they experience. I have guests that are strippers, and they make enough money that they honestly don't care. The money is that good at very little risk to themselves. Of course, if they ever get embroiled in a legal dispute, that's going to be trotted out and used against them (family court is notorious for that shit), but nothing they're doing is illegal. Same with phone sex or cam shows or whatever. As long as everyone involved is of age, it's not a crime, so it's really pure social pressure that they deal with. And that's not something changing names is going to really fix (although like you said earlier, sex worker is an excellent umbrella term, I know people who would be offended to be categorized with the other subsets).

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-06-2015, 03:37 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:35 AM)Oli! Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:34 AM)PkThunda Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:32 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: I would argue they are often victims of poor socioeconomic conditions. As others have said, very few sex workers would choose that work over an equally well paid job that would fit their own particular needs.
As are many minimum wage workers who hold 2-3 jobs they would rather not have.

It's worth noting that they fall into the definition of "Prostitute" that McBeef mentioned earlier.

There is a very real school of philosophical and socioeconomic thought that states that any person that is forced to overwork, or otherwise sell their energy or decency at a level which they find disagreeable is undergoing systematic prostitution.

EDIT: 666th post, oh boy.

Yep they're prostituting themselves too, as I said.

synaesthetic · **11-06-2015, 03:37 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:21 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: *words that would get too long if I quoted the nesting quotes*

No, you're right, ultimately it's the whole concept of trading sex for money that grosses people out and makes them think bad things. No matter what you call it, it's going to always have that connotation (at least unless we manage to uproot all this puritanical nonsense in our culture).

My faith in humanity dropped several points as I thought about this, but oh well, not like I had much to begin with.

It's good that youÂ don't think bad things when you think about sex workers. I don't automatically think those things, either. But I grew up in the South, surrounded by a crapton of religious regressive right-wing wingnuts. My whole family is full of them. Undecided

If there was a bad thing to think about anyone who wasn't exactly like them, they sure thought it. I'm so used to the neutral position being impossible, much less a positive position even existing (though that's changed now that I've met people, including voluntary sex workers).

wrt your statement about trans women and the assumption of sex work: it mostly happens to POCs. In a lot of places, especially red states, trans women of color are assumed to be prostitutes by law enforcement and are often arrested and detained for nonsense charges like "manifesting prostitution."

https://www.aclu.org/blog/arrested-walki...nica-jones <- this is a good read on the subject of "walking while trans."

I'm white and I live in the SF bay area, so I don't automatically have problems with law enforcement. Even the Oakland cops are usually smiles and waves when I walk past. But because I'm both extremely poor and have lived in poor neighborhoods, I have gotten a lot of the general cis male creepers harassing me, but so much of it to the point where I just wouldn't leave the house after dark.

LiadansWhisper · **11-06-2015, 03:37 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:35 AM)Valeera Wrote: Not at all. If someone asks me to describe the new neighbors and I call them a pair of friendly N*****s from Ohio, have I erred? The statement clearly communicates the ethnicity of the new neighbors and is made with no ill or insulting intent.

Again, my line of argument is directed specifically at the original poster to which I responded, wherein the poster asserted that so long as a word is used in a technically correct fashion and without ill intent that it is acceptable.

Ethnicity is not a job description. Again, apples to oranges.

Oli! · **11-06-2015, 03:38 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:35 AM)V Wrote: If someone asks me to describe the new neighbors and I call them a pair of friendly N*****s from Ohio, have I erred? The statement clearly communicates the ethnicity of the new neighbors and is made with no ill or insulting intent.Â

Honestly, I would say no.

There are people that were brought up in situations that state that that is an okay use of that word. It may be worth it to tell them that certain people would prefer not to be thought of that way, and then expect them to remember that going forward, but faulting someone for something which they perceive to be okay until they are told otherwise is silly.

It's like expecting someone who's never seen a car before to drive perfectly their first time with no instruction, and then yelling at them when they wrap it around a telephone pole.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-06-2015, 03:39 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:37 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:35 AM)V Wrote: Not at all. If someone asks me to describe the new neighbors and I call them a pair of friendly N*****s from Ohio, have I erred? The statement clearly communicates the ethnicity of the new neighbors and is made with no ill or insulting intent.

Again, my line of argument is directed specifically at the original poster to which I responded, wherein the poster asserted that so long as a word is used in a technically correct fashion and without ill intent that it is acceptable.

Ethnicity is not a job description. Â Again, apples to oranges.

Also the word is inherently insulting aka "A Slur" so unless you purposefully use it in a way that defeats that fact it's insulting.

Virella · **11-06-2015, 03:41 AM**

While I think your intentions are well, and totally understandable.

Why not try to change the stigma instead of the word? If sex worker ends up being the common used word, it is just a matter of time that some ladies and gent will find it an insulting term over time as well if the stigma attached to these jobs is not going to be changed.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-06-2015, 03:41 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:38 AM)Oli! Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:35 AM)V Wrote: If someone asks me to describe the new neighbors and I call them a pair of friendly N*****s from Ohio, have I erred? The statement clearly communicates the ethnicity of the new neighbors and is made with no ill or insulting intent.Â

Honestly, I would say no.

There are people that were brought up in situations that state that that is an okay use of that word. It may be worth it to tell them that certain people would prefer not to be thought of that way, and then expect them to remember that going forward, but faulting someone for something which they perceive to be okay until they are told otherwise is silly.

It's like expecting someone who's never seen a car before to drive perfectly their first time with no instruction, and then yelling at them when they wrap it around a telephone pole.

Ok that's a better answer.

If someone from China who loves rap songs comes to America, and calls a black dude the N word, that's not really a slur lol. Dude doesn't know.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-06-2015, 03:42 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:36 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:30 AM)PkThunda Wrote: I should add something important:

Sexworkers are allowed to reclaim the language if they want to. If you know a sexworker who is alright with you saying certain words in private, then go ahead! The issue comes up when in a public setting like a forum here.
There are an estimated 42 million sex workers in the world. Most of them are poor women of color.Â

What makes you think you have the authority to speak for them, and say what words the group should be referred to as?

I am a transgender woman, however I don't feel I have the authority to speak about the community at large, only my own opinions.

However you think you have this right? How so? Are you the head of a large group? Did you give a survey? Have you been petitioned?

I'm very curious as to your answer.

Still really curious on this, as Zhavi brought up a lot of the same points.

V'aleera · **11-06-2015, 03:43 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:38 AM)Oli! Wrote: Honestly, I would say no.

I censored myself because, while I have no issue using these words explicitly in appropriate discussions, I prefer not to in highly visible public forums out of respect for people who would rather not see them.

With that said, would your opinion change if I told you that my hypothetical scenario was about using the form of the term ending with "er" and not the more colloquially affectionate "ga"?

(11-06-2015, 03:39 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: Also the word is inherently insulting aka "A Slur" so unless you purposefully use it in a way that defeats that fact it's insulting.

Is it inherently insulting by established definition, or because society has deemed it to be so?

If the former, Umi's argument has merit. If the latter, my argument has merit.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-06-2015, 03:45 AM**

Sometimes I feel bad for the other racial slurs in discussions like these :cÂ

They never get any love as the example word.Â

Must be lonely.

PkThunda · **11-06-2015, 03:46 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:36 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:30 AM)PkThunda Wrote: I should add something important:

Sexworkers are allowed to reclaim the language if they want to. If you know a sexworker who is alright with you saying certain words in private, then go ahead! The issue comes up when in a public setting like a forum here.
There are an estimated 42 million sex workers in the world. Most of them are poor women of color.Â

What makes you think you have the authority to speak for them, and say what words the group should be referred to as?

I am a transgender woman, however I don't feel I have the authority to speak about the community at large, only my own opinions.

However you think you have this right? How so? Are you the head of a large group? Did you give a survey? Have you been petitioned?

I'm very curious as to your answer.

Show Content

I actually read articles that are written by those in the sex-work advocacy community and talk to a handful of actual, real life people who have chosen to get into sex-work and do not want people to use these words.
I do not have to be the head of a group to relay the message.

Oli! · **11-06-2015, 03:46 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:43 AM)V Wrote:
(11-06-2015, 03:38 AM)Oli! Wrote: Honestly, I would say no.

I censored myself because, while I have no issue using these words explicitly in appropriate discussions, I prefer not to in highly visible public forums out of respect for people who would rather not see them.

With that said, would your opinion change if I told you that my hypothetical scenario was about using the form of the term ending with "er" and not the more colloquially affectionate "ga"?

That doesn't make a difference regarding cultural situation or innocent unknowing, so no.

V'aleera · **11-06-2015, 03:49 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:46 AM)Oli! Wrote: That doesn't make a difference regarding cultural situation or innocent unknowing, so no.

I'm not talking about cultural or innocent ignorance.

I'm talking about someone who holds a full understanding of the history and cultural implications for the word, and who chooses to use it regardless for some arbitrary or subjective reason (they like how it rolls off the tongue, say) with the intention of simply using it as a descriptor with no ill intent or malice.

LiadansWhisper · **11-06-2015, 03:49 AM**

(11-06-2015, 03:37 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: No, you're right, ultimately it's the whole concept of trading sex for money that grosses people out and makes them think bad things. No matter what you call it, it's going to always have that connotation (at least unless we manage to uproot all this puritanical nonsense in our culture).

My faith in humanity dropped several points as I thought about this, but oh well, not like I had much to begin with.

My point was more that the issue is how we view sex, not the words we use to describe it. Now, some are clearly pejorative and always have been, and are currently still used in that manner. But not all of them.

Quote:It's good that youÂ don't think bad things when you think about sex workers. I don't automatically think those things, either. But I grew up in the South, surrounded by a crapton of religious regressive right-wing wingnuts. My whole family is full of them.

If there was a bad thing to think about anyone who wasn't exactly like them, they sure thought it. I'm so used to the neutral position being impossible, much less a positive position even existing (though that's changed now that I've met people, including voluntary sex workers).

Well, I live in the South and I grew up here, in a very religious family. My mother's family is devout Roman Catholic, and my mother herself converted to Protestant and is currently a member of the Assemblies of God. I was raised very conservative and religious. Thing is, people who fear say and think terrible things about other people. People who are not afraid are not threatened by things they don't understand, and can look past what society sees as "less than" and see the person. I would be lying if I didn't say that the reason I don't look at prostitutes as bad people, or dirt or scum is because I believe God loves them, and that every life - no matter how much I may disagree with it - has an intrinsic, priceless value. That people are the most precious thing the world has, and everyone deserves to love and be loved.

But that's just me, and, being that I live in the South and I grew up here, I actually do know what you are talking about and I have the relatives and friends that do that all the time. I really do get where you are coming from.

Quote:wrt your statement about trans women and the assumption of sex work: it mostly happens to POCs. In a lot of places, especially red states, trans women of color are assumed to be prostitutes by law enforcement and are often arrested and detained for nonsense charges like "manifesting prostitution."

https://www.aclu.org/blog/arrested-walki...nica-jones <- this is a good read on the subject of "walking while trans."

I mean, that's transphobia and racism. They're calling it "prostitution," because they don't have another "legitimate" way of arresting that person. They don't like what they're seeing (or they're personally threatened by it - and I'll be honest, I don't really get why!), and so they're making up what they can to justify their behavior.

Quote:I'm white and I live in the SF bay area, so I don't automatically have problems with law enforcement. Even the Oakland cops are usually smiles and waves when I walk past. But because I'm both extremely poor and have lived in poor neighborhoods, I have gotten a lot of the general cis male creepers harassing me, but so much of it to the point where I just wouldn't leave the house after dark.

I had a female friend who lives in Jersey now and she was talking about being street harassed in NYC and creeped on on public transportation, and it was just so damn foreign to me. I've lived in poor/lower middle class neighborhoods all my life, but I can't recall ever being creeped on here. I asked her if guys up north are just unmitigated creepers, and another friend who lives in NYC said that they're just exceptionally blatant there. I guess that's true in SF, too. It's just so damn weird. ._. I don't understand how parents can raise their kids to be so rude in public.

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Sex-work and Harmful Language

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