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Kellach Woods · **06-09-2016, 08:31 PM**

(06-09-2016, 10:49 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'm not so sure we'll be dealing with Ishgard's new issues going forward, at least not primarily. Consider that after 2.55 we have not gotten a single accurate glimpse of Ul'dah's condition: We get some closure involving the Sultana and that plot, but the city-state itself? Nothing outside of some commentary. It's been more than a real life year since then (and in two weeks, a full year since HW resolved it) and we still don't know what is happening there.

Ishgard's direction in the future is probably going to end up being a grey area, and with as many interpretations as there are in play right now...? I don't envy anyone using it as a central tenet of their stories.

hello my name is gridania and what the fuck is actual events happening in a city.

Virella · **06-09-2016, 08:37 PM**

(06-09-2016, 08:30 PM)Aya Wrote: For me, it's not strictly that it's uninteresting, but that it's simply no longer interesting in the way that Ishgard is. Â I think comparisons to Uldah, with a snowy, early steam sort of vibe is not far off the mark. Â It's almost like they decided they wanted something like that in the game and then decided to turn Ishgard into that, rather than actually working from the setting and story they had crafted originally.

Eh. Ishgard isn't exactly build onto the foundation of "who has most gil" rules just yet. And we don't have a Sultana either in Ishgard. Or a GC (yet) ect.

But yeah, I agree, it does feel a bit lame in many ways. I loved playing Virella as a dumb racist religious moron. But that foundation has crumbled for her RP as well. Not that I mind THAT much, she was progressing beyond that anyhow. But I can speed it up at least now I suppose.

Then again, I sort of expected Ishgard to be 'fixed' up, and become a nicer place. The blow wasn't too harsh for me. We saw this redemption plot for Ishgard coming from miles off after all.

Kellach Woods · **06-09-2016, 11:30 PM**

FSH level 70* cloudfishing item:
Eye of Nidhogg
aka Aymeric is the dumbest elezen alive.

I very heavily dislike the warning that they'll play several cutscenes.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOW THE FUCKING HELMET IN THE ROOM WE KNOW HE'S NOT THERE WE SAW HIM WITHOUT THE HELMET IN THE PREVIOUS CUTSCENE.

Considering the WoD and Elidibus were meeting in the shroud, I might have made a grid joke too early.

Belah'diah apparently had poet kings.

Lolorito SOMEHOW manages to not be a complete fucking douchebag in this patch cycle. I blame the Culinarians. They must have poisoned his mind with foods to tame the gods.

***Teadrinker*** · **06-10-2016, 01:43 AM**

(06-09-2016, 08:37 PM)Virella Wrote: Then again, I sort of expected Ishgard to be 'fixed' up, and become a nicer place. The blow wasn't too harsh for me. We saw this redemption plot for Ishgard coming from miles off after all.

Yeah, but at the price of something.

They put up all this bullshit foreshadowing of "A HEAVY PRICE WILL BE PAID." With a big ol ominous close up of husbando's (Aymeric's) face and Matoya was all like "YOU HAVE TO FIGHT AND KILL AND LOSE IN WAR." and we got...

Nothing. Literally nothing of value was lost, peace is effortless, the entire landscape of Ishgard changes in.... a few days? A month? And there is no information or inkling to indicate it's anything BUT hunkey dory.

Puke.

Parvacake · **06-10-2016, 02:25 AM**

(06-10-2016, 01:43 AM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(06-09-2016, 08:37 PM)Virella Wrote: Then again, I sort of expected Ishgard to be 'fixed' up, and become a nicer place. The blow wasn't too harsh for me. We saw this redemption plot for Ishgard coming from miles off after all.

Yeah, but at the price of something.

They put up all this bullshit foreshadowing of "A HEAVY PRICE WILL BE PAID." With a big ol ominous close up of husbando's (Aymeric's) face and Matoya was all like "YOU HAVE TO FIGHT AND KILL AND LOSE IN WAR." and we got...

Nothing. Literally nothing of value was lost, peace is effortless, the entire landscape of Ishgard changes in.... a few days? A month? And there is no information or inkling to indicate it's anything BUT hunkey dory.

Puke.

I think the war allusion was also for something greater then that and we did lose things in the recent conflict. We lost nameless NPCs and some main side characters and in the POV of the story those WERE significant losses. Like, they weren't lying about that. The changes came at a price of their history, their ruling body, their whole way of viewing their culture, and their heritage.

As for the changes in Ishgard, they don't say it outright but it's hinted that everything takes at least a few months. They just don't outright account for actual 'rest' periods like there would be in reality. Because nobody has time for that lol.

I'll be waiting to see how the rest of the coming patches unfold since there's so many other paths they can explore now without Nidhogg being a shitbird. If people think this is the be all end all and find it such a disappointment for Ishgard's story? Cool beans. I'll be over here with aftermath roleplay, social and cultural dissonance, the crazies that still cling to the Church, political strife, and other such potentials.

Caspar · **06-10-2016, 02:50 AM**

I am extremely fond of the themes that come about when a class within society becomes irrelevant and suddenly needs to cope with being in a new era that doesn't need them. It just falls to Square to actually make use of this, and I hope they do. I reserve judgment for what happens next. I'm sort of so-so on the whole thing; don't really hate it, don't really like it. I don't think this game or setting is the grimdark hellhole RPers want it to be, but I do think that loss is more effective in a story when it's connected to things the viewers care about, as callous as it might seem to not care about the human loss of thousands of faceless NPCs. (Heh.) It cannot simply be bittersweet because they tell you it is.

I mean I definitely expected Ishgard to get better. I think anyone really ought to have unless they're that confused about the tone and grittiness of the storyline, and well, look at how many people came back from the blowout before HW. Still, I was sure probably Aymaric would die as soon as peace was achieved due to the assassination attempt earlier. The nobles would fracture and begin fighting among one another, and one of Fortemps' sons would unite them and take his place. Honestly, even I was sure they had brought back enough characters from the brink.Â Yet even the random bitter woman from the previous patch storyline who poisoned you didn't die permanently.

I think a few plot threads overall in HW kinda sputtered out and lost their focus. Overall I think that the spectacle of it was very fun and I did like some of the ideas they played around with. I also felt like the important NPCs were interesting and fun to interact with. But starting with the last patch, I think the story lost some steam. The rebellious element was handled really easily. A few character's development faded into the ether, like Emmanellain's, who was sort of a plot device to undermine the heroes through incompetence, but his maturing slightly didn't really go anywhere, when I was expecting him to take a leadership role later on as an indirect result. (All I got out of that was Punished Cred punching him out, which was arguably enough but whatever, I'm greedy.) Minnie's death was really unceremonious compared to the other two major deaths up until that point; it felt kind of strange to do so little with a character pushed upon us for most of the 2.0 plot, even if she wasn't that interesting.Â The stuff with what Matoya mentioned was also kinda glossed over and loses a lot of punch in retrospect, as mentioned previously here.

I'm not saying they don't have potential to do interesting things with a post ecclesiarchy Ishgard, but I want to see it happen before I make any calls on whether they do it in a fun way that recaptures the uncertainty of the early HW storyline.

Kellach Woods · **06-10-2016, 07:43 AM**

They won't. Ishgard's story is not our story - We were there to kill the big dragon. That's been done. We gotta move on.

Same with Ul'dah. In the victory tour (a very DQ thing to do, actually - most FFs will show you the cutscene then yayyyy you're done. It's a DQ tradition to have you visit the different places you went through your journey), they slipped a line that Lolorito gave Teldeji's entire fortune to the crown to use as they see fit. That flies in front of his entire characterization up to this point - It's cool that they did because it gives him depth beyond a mustache-twirling villain (and confirms what many of the people here thought - that he wasn't a mustache-twirling villain) but it's still a throwaway line as opposed to an actual resolution.

I know I'm going to be disappointed in 4.0 because that means the end of Idyllshire's story guaranteed, but we gotta move on.

* * *

So what happens with the scholasticate story? You know that story they started in 3.1 and clearly have no intentions to finish?

***Nero*** · **06-10-2016, 10:34 AM**

I think Ishgard mellowing out is the natural end for Heavensward. It's not the actual events themselves that really put me off, because Nidhogg being whacked and reformation being implemented was completely inevitable. It's the fact that the story is paced atrociously and that there is never any sense that this ending was earned by, well, anyone.

Pacing is, of course, a double-edged sword. Too slow and it drags on and nothing gets accomplished. Too quick and the story ends up being rushed and unsatisfying.

If they really had to pull off the "Nidhogg comes back to life" plot device, then Heavensward should have ended with Nidhogg's first death followed immediately by Estinien's possession. 3.1 and 3.2 would deal with Aymeric acting in direct opposition to Archbishop Thordan in order to secure peace with Hraesvelgr's brood. 3.2 would still end with Vidofnir getting shanked. 3.3, Nidhogg dies. 3.4 and 3.5 would deal with the conflict of Ishgard's reformation and the expansion ends with Thordan becoming a Primal in a desperate bid to secure the theocracy's power after peace had been achieved with the dragons.

Instead, more than half of the initial expansion story and the subsequent 3.1 and 3.2 patches is spent fucking around with the Scions, watching the Ascians and Warriors of Darkness twirl their bad-guy mustaches going "Guys we are totally still relevant to the story", Regula van Hydrus shows up to join the mustache twirling by going "Look the Garleans are still relevant too", and seeing Square Enix completely fucking bomb any potential that Ul'dah had to be interesting by not going through with killing off the Sultana.

Then in the subsequent patches, peace is achieved effortlessly by Aymeric going to Vidofnir and saying "We're really really sorry", we fuck around with the Scions some more, Minfillia gets the boot, and then the whole thing kind of sputters and...ends.

I mean, I get that the main conflict is between the Scions and the Ascians regarding the revival of Zodiark. Fine. I just don't think that the pacing of a far more interesting storyline (the Dragonsong war) should have been completely butchered in order to make room for the Scions and Ascians who really don't even do anything besides show up in the background and remind you that things are going to happen. Not that they are happening, but that eventually there'll be some kind of payoff.

And I'm not exactly advocating for Game of Thrones-esque levels of character death. Grimdarkness is absolutely unnecessary, and arbitrary edginess is a horrific thing to see.

But even in light-hearted, idealistic stories, there are struggles. There is an ordeal for our heroes to conquer, and the resolution is earned. Can you imagine if, in the Lord of the Rings, Frodo and Sam really did take the Eagles to Mordor and just dropped the ring into Mount Doom? Pop, just like that?

But in Heavensward there was no struggle. No sacrifice. And no, Haurchefant and Ysayle don't count because Haurchefant was a completely one-dimensional character whose death was needless and idiotic (The Warrior of Light could be a master at four different healing classes and sort of just watches him die because drama) and Ysayle dies in a context that is completely irrelevant to her character arc.

Estinien's struggle over Nidhogg and subsequently over his own vengeance, then dying in order to keep both of those things from continuing to hurt people he cares about. That's a struggle and sacrifice. That's a price paid to overcome a meaningful conflict. But Estinien is just fine too. Turns out, all he had to do to kill his most hated enemy was get possessed by him. Huh! More people should try that.

It just makes me tear my hair out because this story could have been good. But it's not. Lack the manpower and resources or something.

Verad · **06-10-2016, 11:47 AM**

In the end, they didn't ask any of us how to write this, so what could it be but awful?

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-10-2016, 01:11 PM**

I honestly like the way the story is written long term in FFXIV, though in the short term pacing can be a problem.
In most MMOs, the expansions and the story are incredibly episodic. Every expansion has the bad dude of the year, and then you kill them and figure out who the next bad dude is.

FFXIV drops the fact that there is an ultimate foe (possibly, who knows if we're being shown the truth) and sprinkles that along the whole time.Â

As for the Ishgard plot, I think it will go on the backburner some, unless SUPRISE NIDHOGG ROUND 3, THE ULTRA FINAL STEPS OF FAITH.

Caspar · **06-10-2016, 01:15 PM**

That is a good point. I actually kinda think more than HW itself, the Garleans and the Scions vs Ascians suffered most story wise. Ascians (and I'll admit I'm biased because I don't get to listen to CHAR's voice any more) like Lahabrea who was a serious threat in previous story events basically job to Thordan to make him seem like a credible enemy. On their own and separate the HW knights and the Archbishop were more than threatening enough; was it necessary to make the Ascians seem like schmucks too? Like I mentioned, Minnie's death was kinda glossed over. *Yes* we've all made jokes about her and linkpearl calls and the Waking Sands, but I feel like a more tragic end could have been achieved had it not been essentially Hydaelyn sac-ing her to make a phone call to WoL. Krille was kinda pointless too. I was excited to see another important non-villainous mature Lalafell character but hopefully something cones of her later on I guess?

I suppose the most tangible impression I have is that it's not really that HW's storyline was bad, but juggling it with like three other major plots kinda detracted from all of them at once. It's a little disappointing.

S'imba · **06-10-2016, 01:54 PM**

I mean I think a lot of that stuff is just kind of set up for bigger things to come. The timing for doing it was bad in my opinion, but my thoughts are these things they seem to be glancing over were done intentionally to keep the focus on the current bad guy. I think I'd they focused on that stuff too much it would have taken away from the threat Nidhogg represented. He wouldn't have been a final boss cause we would be more focused on the next big thingame.
Â
The other thing I feel like they were trying to convey was trying to make it seem like the WoL was getting overwhelmed. The stronger he gets the more threats he's going to be expected to deal with. To create a feeling that despite being Hydaelyn's champion he's still only one person. Though once again, they could definitely have executed it better.Â

Kellach Woods · **06-10-2016, 06:50 PM**

(06-10-2016, 11:47 AM)Verad Wrote: In the end, they didn't ask any of us how to write this, so what could it be but awful?

Much like the moogles in Sohr Khai, we didn't ask for this.

Aya · **06-10-2016, 07:17 PM**

(06-10-2016, 11:47 AM)Verad Wrote: In the end, they didn't ask any of us how to write this, so what could it be but awful?

I wish you had written it Verad Smile

Cato · **06-10-2016, 07:24 PM**

(06-10-2016, 01:54 PM)S Wrote: The other thing I feel like they were trying to convey was trying to make it seem like the WoL was getting overwhelmed. The stronger he gets the more threats he's going to be expected to deal with. To create a feeling that despite being Hydaelyn's champion he's still only one person. Though once again, they could definitely have executed it better.Â

The problem with that is that a lot of the threats aren't really threats. Most of the Primals these days are summoned and then immediately dealt with in an enclosed battlefield. There's no risk of anybody being Tempered because the developers apparently aren't willing to have any major characters be Tempered. Imagine if, say, someone like Lucia was sent to aid us in a fight against a new Primal that emerges abruptly due to Ascian scheming.

Lucia - or someone of simply significance - is Tempered during the battle. Afterwards she babbles about her newfound obsession with said Primal and it is a grim and sad necessity to put her down as their is no known cure for Tempering.

As it stands literally ever major antagonist we face typically achieves very little in the short time that they're in the spotlight...and the long term antagonists end up hiding in the shadows talking about how powerful the Warrior of the Light has become.

It's a real shame because even in the single player games the antagonists secured many victories and felt like a great threat. FFIX was pretty brutal - every major nation on the Mist Continent suffered at the hands of Brahne and Kuja. We even faced Beatrix three times and were thrashed - and only survived because Beatrix had a change of heart.

In FFVII Shinra were a thorn in our side at almost every turn - and had their own shining moments. If not for Shinra the way to Sephiroth's lair would never have been opened and one of the infamous Weapons was slain not by the main heroes, but Shinra itself.

I'd love to see more stuff along those lines because as it stands a lot of this games antagonists feel very lacking, one dimensional or incompetent...and there's only so many times the Warrior of Light can succeed before it makes for a very stale story.Â

Dark and gritty for the sake of being dark and gritty isn't great but it's not as if previous Final Fantasy games have avoided such things...and they've had plenty of light hearted scenes to balance it out as well.

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Ishgard, post 3.3 (OBVIOUSLY SPOILERS FOR MSQ)

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