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Kismet · **10-31-2013, 06:05 PM**

It's also really sad because Coerthas is, in my opinion, a GORGEOUS zone. It's so absolutely beautiful to me. But the quests that happen there. God, the quests... They make me hate that place so, soooo, sooooooo very much.

Evil

LiadansWhisper · **10-31-2013, 06:42 PM**

(10-31-2013, 06:05 PM)Kismet Wrote: It's also really sad because Coerthas is, in my opinion, a GORGEOUS zone. It's so absolutely beautiful to me. But the quests that happen there. God, the quests... They make me hate that place so, soooo, sooooooo very much.

The quests didn't make me hate Coerthas, but they did make me want to take most of the NPCs and either set them on fire or fling them off towers.

After all, that's what those crazy fuckers were already doing, right? Â >.>

LiadansWhisper · **10-31-2013, 06:50 PM**

(10-31-2013, 11:54 AM)S Wrote:
(10-31-2013, 09:22 AM)K Wrote: "F**K ISHGARD AND I HOPE BAHAMUT COMES BACK AND LEVELS THIS WHOLE MOUNTAIN".
This is a sentiment I can wholeheartedly get behind.

Personally, I've been enjoying the story, and the content gating hasn't really hit me too bad since I've generally tended to only be a level to three levels beyond required, so while (especially) the first dungeons found me getting a bunch of gear that would have been great several levels prior, as a whole story/gameplay dealie has been fine for me.

Note the bold, please.

On the other hand, I finally persuaded my friend to try the game. I'd had an extra copy (since I'd had 1.0 and played it like, twice, and hated it, but thought I had to rebuy the game for 2.0- which I hadn't, leaving me holding a second copy). So I got him to install it and give it a go, thankfully well after the main slew of 1017 and 90k and all that rot was done with for the most part. He's playing, he's having a good time- mainly grinding through mobs and fates even from the start. He's an old-school EQ1 player and that's his preferred playstyle. Finally, he asks me, 'when do I get to a dungeon?' I told him 15, and he was excited because he was already getting close. So I had to burst his bubble... "Well, you know all those quests you didn't feel like doing? You have to do them."

I haven't seen him in game since, and every time I ask if he wants to play, he says 'yeah, maybe later, but first let's <insert something not FFXIV here>'. I'm pretty sure he's not coming back. I... truly don't see why a lot of this stuff has to be gated, especially the 'MMO' bits. I don't see why the game can't have an option for you (for instance) to hit 15 and grab a quest similar to the other optional unlocks, where you get to run out and talk to a guy by the dungeon and hey, you can do the dungeon. Or why (as is the case with many/most MMOs) you can't hit the right level, and join a grand company to work for your mount (yes, I know that's part of the quest, but it ought to be easy enough to include a flag, and Storm Sergeant Recruiter Wedge says, "Back off, guys, we've already nabbed Storm Corporal Biggs, you can't have him" and move along.

Short version? Forcing everyone to follow a single gameplay paradigm is bad, since people play MMOs for a variety of reasons. What works for one person (like me, who has loved everything but the number-soup errors and gilspammers) does not work for another.

If I remember correctly, during Beta 3, most of the "attunements" just required you to walk up and talk to someone, and whammo, bammo, you had access.

Which was both good and bad. Â Even in the game now, it's sometimes hard to know (when you're first getting started) when you are missing a dungeon because it's a side quest. Â Most of the dungeon quests originate in one way or another in Vesper Bay, but the one for Cutter's Cry, for instance, is a random quest in the freaking Ul'dah markets. Â Which can be easily missed if, for instance, you were like me and started in Gridania and purposely left all of the lower level Ul'dah quests alone so that I could come back on my first alt class/job and not have to fate grind so hard.

Naunet · **10-31-2013, 07:33 PM**

(10-31-2013, 06:50 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: If I remember correctly, during Beta 3, most of the "attunements" just required you to walk up and talk to someone, and whammo, bammo, you had access.

That's because none of the quests past level 15 had been implemented yet, but they still wanted folk to test the dungeons.

LiadansWhisper · **10-31-2013, 07:46 PM**

(10-31-2013, 07:33 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(10-31-2013, 06:50 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: If I remember correctly, during Beta 3, most of the "attunements" just required you to walk up and talk to someone, and whammo, bammo, you had access.

That's because none of the quests past level 15 had been implemented yet, but they still wanted folk to test the dungeons.

I know that. Â It was stated at the time.

I was more pointing to the fact that people got lost a lot more easily because they didn't even know there was a dungeon they should be unlocking, etc.

Cato · **11-01-2013, 02:14 AM**

I'm a big fan of any system in MMO's that involves gradually unlocking content as any given character advances in level. It encourages investment and gives a genuine sense of progression. Is it a pain to have to do everything all over again on a fresh character? Definitely, though that's the consequence of investing in multiple characters. As far as I'm concerned the journey should matter just as much as the destination.

K'dath · **11-01-2013, 03:34 AM**

(11-01-2013, 02:14 AM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: I'm a big fan of any system in MMO's that involves gradually unlocking content as any given character advances in level. It encourages investment and gives a genuine sense of progression. Is it a pain to have to do everything all over again on a fresh character? Definitely, though that's the consequence of investing in multiple characters. As far as I'm concerned the journey should matter just as much as the destination.

Everyone's destination isn't necessarily the same.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying from a general stand point though. You shouldn't be able to snap your fingers and be level 99 with relic+++ and armor made from the flesh of Bahamut himself etc, etc. It is important to level and progress and learn. You get a feel for what you are capable of in an intimate way by doing things besides spamming Ruin2 at FATE mobs till you collect your 555k exp.

You should invest in your character. But that's a personal decision, and other people are going to feel/connect differently. Your mileage will vary.

Illira · **11-01-2013, 10:36 AM**

(11-01-2013, 02:14 AM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: I'm a big fan of any system in MMO's that involves gradually unlocking content as any given character advances in level. It encourages investment and gives a genuine sense of progression. Is it a pain to have to do everything all over again on a fresh character? Definitely, though that's the consequence of investing in multiple characters. As far as I'm concerned the journey should matter just as much as the destination.

Or... A nice compromise could be, that if a player has unlocked content in one characters its unlocked for all of them. So that there is still that "sense of progression" that SE wants in the design, but it doesn't bog down and annoy those who are alt-aholics. That is my primary issue, that and that they are tied to the combat-based story quest.

Ildur · **11-01-2013, 11:33 AM**

I think that's pretty much the thing that would fix any complains about the 'very meaningful' unlocks: make them account-wide unlocks. People who are levelling alts are seeing the exact same storyline anyway, so they won't get the same feeling of achievement they did when first unlocking chocobos or whatever.

Personally, though, I wouldn't say that some of these unlocks make the journey more meaningful. You wouldn't need to unlock airships if the game wasn't designed to have the players level up in every area of the world. Dyes aren't a reward for your hard work as much as they are a fetch quest placed on an arbitrary level. It feels less like the game is saying "Now that you are level 15, you have unlocked the right to not look like a clown all the time!" They could have very well put a version of that same quest on every starting city at level 1 and it would be just as meaningful/meaningless.

Then again, if the unlocks were account wide, nobody in their right mind would complain.

LeCard · **11-01-2013, 01:10 PM**

(11-01-2013, 11:33 AM)Ildur Wrote: I think that's pretty much the thing that would fix any complains about the 'very meaningful' unlocks: make them account-wide unlocks. People who are levelling alts are seeing the exact same storyline anyway, so they won't get the same feeling of achievement they did when first unlocking chocobos or whatever.

Personally, though, I wouldn't say that some of these unlocks make the journey more meaningful. You wouldn't need to unlock airships if the game wasn't designed to have the players level up in every area of the world. Dyes aren't a reward for your hard work as much as they are a fetch quest placed on an arbitrary level. It feels less like the game is saying "Now that you are level 15, you have unlocked the right to not look like a clown all the time!" They could have very well put a version of that same quest on every starting city at level 1 and it would be just as meaningful/meaningless.

Then again, if the unlocks were account wide, nobody in their right mind would complain.

as far as the dyeing quest is concerned, lvl 1-15 has so much gear changing that dyeing your gear before then is kind of pointless. it would be nice if they made it available in every city, but otherwise I have no problem with it. (also if you do the right quest you get the orange juice for free Wink

)

Naunet · **11-01-2013, 02:04 PM**

(11-01-2013, 01:10 PM)LeCard Wrote: as far as the dyeing quest is concerned, lvl 1-15 has so much gear changing that dyeing your gear before then is kind of pointless.

So? Arbitrary restrictions - and yes, locking dye behind a level and quest wall isÂ arbitrary - like that are what make the experience of playing ARR so frustrating. No dye until you're 15 and have finished the completely random quest that contributes nothing to your gaming experience except forcing you to travel some place randomly. No traveling out of or into La Noscea if you're not 15 and having finished the (combat class required) story quest! If you start in Ul'dah or Gridania, we're just going to randomly lock off an entire section of zones, and if you start in Limsa... well, tough cookies! You don't get to experience the rest of the world until you've leveled a combat class high enough to complete that absolutely inane story quest. Want access to bank space? Squeenix says no! That is, unless you're a combat class who has completed the quest unlock at level 20 for no particular reason.

I don't care if you or some other people think it's "pointless" to utilize certain parts of the game before a certain level. It's all absurd.

Cato · **11-01-2013, 02:06 PM**

If everything is account bound for characters created after someone's initial character reaches the end game point then there isn't much motivation for the player to do the stuff required to unlock things ever again. The current system at least ensures that there's a steady flow of players looking to do the story dungeons and low level primal fights. It also rewards investment by granting the player access to various services and rewards as their character advances in level.

Kismet · **11-01-2013, 04:17 PM**

I personally thinkÂ designers can figure out how to continue to motivate players who've already unlocked things in a system that would've supported account-wide unlocks. It's not impossible. *shrugs* I'm sure there's other games that do it just fine.

Ildur · **11-01-2013, 10:32 PM**

(11-01-2013, 02:06 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: If everything is account bound for characters created after someone's initial character reaches the end game point then there isn't much motivation for the player to do the stuff required to unlock things ever again. The current system at least ensures that there's a steady flow of players looking to do the story dungeons and low level primal fights. It also rewards investment by granting the player access to various services and rewards as their character advances in level.

The current system ensures nothing more than people wasting their time. Low level dungeons will always have a steady source of players because people will A) Want gear from them for their levelling/aesthetic needs B) They have to do them anyway because the storyquest requires them (so even if you have them unlocked you still have to do them to register for the quest). C) People leveling various classes on a character will want to spam level appropiate dungeons as much as possible since it's the most efficient way to level up.
Also, people would still have to do the storyquest that unlocks airships even if they had airships account-wide unlocked because, you know, you still need that quest to unlock the quests associated with the storyline. The only thing they wouldn't need to do is farming 2k GC seals to buy their chocobo or do the very meaningful and rewarding fetch quest needed for dyes.

What a per-character unlock does on these things is demotivate the player from leveling alts in the first place.

synaesthetic · **11-02-2013, 03:58 PM**

Not like dyes even have a purpose really since you can't dye endgame gear. *grumbles*

I didn't have to grind FATEs on BLM to hit 50. Obviously I did on BRD and SCH, being on the same character instead of on alts.

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