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Eeam · **09-10-2010, 03:42 AM**

Honestly, when was the last time you jumped or hurdled yourself over things taller than you are? I'm just saying if you want to use the realism argument, then try to factor in the fact that our characters will be wearing heavy armor and/or carrying heavy gear. Vaulting yourself six feet into the air while wearing a full metal suit of armor and a heavy harpoon just looks... Stupid. :I

(Unless of course you're a Dragoon.)

Freyar · **09-10-2010, 04:06 AM**

Eeam Wrote:(Unless of course you're a Dragoon.)

... but.. everyone is a Dragoon! Didn't you get your gem?

Loc Talon · **09-10-2010, 04:40 AM**

Eeam Wrote:Honestly, when was the last time you jumped or hurdled yourself over things taller than you are? I'm just saying if you want to use the realism argument, then try to factor in the fact that our characters will be wearing heavy armor and/or carrying heavy gear. Vaulting yourself six feet into the air while wearing a full metal suit of armor and a heavy harpoon just looks... Stupid. :I

(Unless of course you're a Dragoon.)

Someone else made the "heavy armor" argument earlier. The thing with that is, most armor and weaponry is really not that heavy at all. As I refrenced earlier, the armor that medieval Knights wore in most parts of the world between the 14th and 16th century only weighed between 60 and 70 lbs, that's a full set of plate armor. The "Heavy Armor" myth started from jousting sport armor, which was significantly heavier than field armor, because manueverability wasn't as big of an issue as it was in open warfare.

In that regard, DDO had an interesting mechanic that took into consideration the type of armor that you wore. Someone wearing cloth or leather would be much more mobile(i.e. able to jump higher/farther and move quicker) than someone wearing plate. Just a thought.

I'm not quite sure where the "Jumping over things taller than you" came from, as no one really mentioned anything(in this thread) quite that extreme. But, although extreme, it is not impossible. Watching the summer olympics is a clear sign of that. Though, I cannot speak for everyone else, personally, I wouldn't expect to be able to jump to the point of that extremity. But, I would expect a means to get over a two-three foot wall, as opposed to running all the way around.

With that said, again, I would like to point out the Pugilist ability "Seismic Shock", where the character does, in fact, leap a good six-seven feet in the air and this can be performed while wearing a full metal suit of armor.

Satrina · **09-10-2010, 09:03 AM**

Loc Talon Wrote:When you are in live combat, I can assure you, that you are jumping quite a bit.
When you are scaling cliffs, there are situations that call for jumping.
I went cliff diving two days ago that required a good deal of jumping.
That is just three of many examples that I could provide.
To jump down cliffs and embankments, so that you don't have to run a mile down the road just to find an opening in the landscape, so that you can get to the mob or nod that you need for that leve quest. I can't tell you how many times I've been mining, and I find the node that I need, just a couple feet underneath me. But, due to the lack of jumping and abundance of invisible walls, I was forced to run alllll the way around, to the other side of the gigantic crater, and then back up the other side to mine the node. A 5-10 minutes wasted that could have been avoided, providing the aforemention conditions were not in place. But, like I said, my wish is purely for the sake of aesthetic and not game mechanics.

EDIT: I went back and read this and I would like to apologize for "smug" overtone in it. Was not my intended tone. Curse you text based communications! <3

Don't worry about smug overtone, I come off as an asshole all the time Wink

But about your points: Scaling cliffs and cliff diving do not equate to live combat. While I know live combat nowadays requires a lot of movement and mobility, the reason we can do that is due to the body armor allowing flexibility. Think how much effort it would take to jump in chainmail or plate, also even jumping down a 2-3ft ledge to the ground might blow out your ankles and knees, the human body is not made for walking upright and has quite a few flaws in that regard.

Jumping would alleviate a lot of the pain of having to travel around certain spots, but there's a reason behind it too. If FFXI had had jumping, you could have easily just jumped into Byakko's spawn location without having to go through the building and watch as retards died due to no sneak oils. Big Grin

Quote:Someone else made the "heavy armor" argument earlier. The thing with that is, most armor and weaponry is really not that heavy at all. As I refrenced earlier, the armor that medieval Knights wore in most parts of the world between the 14th and 16th century only weighed between 60 and 70 lbs, that's a full set of plate armor.

70pds might not seem like a lot because it's pretty easy to lift that...but try to imagine it resting on your shoulders, head and weighing you down WHILE you engage in combat and fatigue. Also try picking up 70 pds and jumping 4ft down a ledge, actually don't because you'd blow out something.

Loc Talon · **09-10-2010, 10:57 AM**

Satrina Wrote:Don't worry about smug overtone, I come off as an asshole all the time

Whew! I was worried about that. I tend to get very professional and straight-forward when it comes to debates(something I picked up from debate and critical thinking classes in college). And, due to the lack of vocal tone, it comes off as smug, ass-hatery. =D

Satrina Wrote:Scaling cliffs and cliff diving do not equate to live combat.

Oh no, of course not. This I agree with completelly. I was merely listing those as additional examples of occasions or situations in real-life that we would use jumping.

Satrina Wrote:While I know live combat nowadays requires a lot of movement and mobility, the reason we can do that is due to the body armor allowing flexibility. Think how much effort it would take to jump in chainmail or plate, also even jumping down a 2-3ft ledge to the ground might blow out your ankles and knees, the human body is not made for walking upright and has quite a few flaws in that regard.

Well, although we have better technology now-a-days, contrary to popular belief, battle armor of the middle ages was designed with the same mobility in mind. Knights of that time were trained to jump, crawl, climb, etc. comfortably in their armor.

I would also have to strongly disagree with blowing an ankle out from jumping over a 2-3 ft ledge in armor. The full battle dress used by the US armed forces today actually weighs quite a bit more(roughly 90 lbs) than the armor suits worn by Knights of the old. Being a serving member of the armed forces, I had to frequently scale walls, jump ledges, crawl through mud, swing on ropes, vault myself over walls, etc. in full battle dress and I never blew out an ankle and my knees are fine. With that in mind, there's no way that you could blow out an ankle by jumping off a 2-3 ft ledge in a suit of armor, -unless- you land on it wrong, but that can be easily accomplished even without armor.

Satrina Wrote:Jumping would alleviate a lot of the pain of having to travel around certain spots, but there's a reason behind it too. If FFXI had had jumping, you could have easily just jumped into Byakko's spawn location without having to go through the building and watch as retards died due to no sneak oils.

Admittedly, I only played XI for all of two weeks and I'm clueless of the area you're talking about. But, that type is issue that the age old Invisible Wall couldn't fix, there's already an invisible wall erected around every cliff or small ledge in Aldenard, so it wouldn't be hard to take out the ones that are unecissary and leave the ones that are. This sort of "selective wall" method has been used by various game developers for years and has proven to do the trick in those sort of situations. This sort of mechanic is easily implemented and takes very little resources.

Satrina Wrote:70pds might not seem like a lot because it's pretty easy to lift that...but try to imagine it resting on your shoulders, head and weighing you down WHILE you engage in combat and fatigue. Also try picking up 70 pds and jumping 4ft down a ledge, actually don't because you'd blow out something.

60-70 lbs is still on the high end, I chose to use the high-end measurement for the sake of making the point. Most historians agree that the average weight was typically between 45-60 lbs. Also, as mentioned above, I have done the things that you've mentioned above...alot. Combat training, maneuver excercises, etc with 90 lbs of gear strapped to my back and through out the rest of my body. Even then, that is taking the -light- combat gear(being the warm weather gear). The cold weather attire weighs a good 10 lbs more than that.

So, speaking from experience, It is possible and easily done. -Especially-, when you are regularly running, jumping, and fighting in the said attire.

Asyria · **09-10-2010, 11:13 AM**

In short, our characters are Adventurers in a world where it's safe to assume that people are generally in better physical shape than most people are in the real world. Add to that the physical particularities of each race and it's not even realistic to compare them with us, anymore.

Xzenivar · **09-10-2010, 12:05 PM**

Loc Talon Wrote:
Satrina Wrote:70pds might not seem like a lot because it's pretty easy to lift that...but try to imagine it resting on your shoulders, head and weighing you down WHILE you engage in combat and fatigue. Also try picking up 70 pds and jumping 4ft down a ledge, actually don't because you'd blow out something.

60-70 lbs is still on the high end, I chose to use the high-end measurement for the sake of making the point. Most historians agree that the average weight was typically between 45-60 lbs. Also, as mentioned above, I have done the things that you've mentioned above...alot. Combat training, maneuver excercises, etc with 90 lbs of gear strapped to my back and through out the rest of my body. Even then, that is taking the -light- combat gear(being the warm weather gear). The cold weather attire weighs a good 10 lbs more than that.

So, speaking from experience, It is possible and easily done. -Especially-, when you are regularly running, jumping, and fighting in the said attire.

I just wanted to add on, having similar experience, that when wearing this sort of armor, it doesn't necessarily feel like you're wearing that much, as when you're wearing such armor thats fitted and strapped on correctly, the weight distribution makes it much lighter and easier to move around in. Combine that with long periods of training (such as pages->squires->knights) it may feel like a natural part of your body.

Loc Talon · **09-10-2010, 01:09 PM**

Asyria Wrote:In short, our characters are Adventurers in a world where it's safe to assume that people are generally in better physical shape than most people are in the real world. Add to that the physical particularities of each race and it's not even realistic to compare them with us, anymore.

Which only adds to the point that the characters and adventurers in question would be able to feasibly be able to jump and maneuver in their combat attire. If we are able to do it, then certainly the general characters and adventurers mentioned would be able to do it as well, with no difficulties.

Xzenivar Wrote:I just wanted to add on, having similar experience, that when wearing this sort of armor, it doesn't necessarily feel like you're wearing that much, as when you're wearing such armor thats fitted and strapped on correctly, the weight distribution makes it much lighter and easier to move around in. Combine that with long periods of training (such as pages->squires->knights) it may feel like a natural part of your body.

That is completelly correct. Not to mention the fact that 50-60 lbs is really not that heavy to begin with and, as you pointed out, it would feel even less when distributed through out your body.

TeeBeeDee · **09-10-2010, 04:03 PM**

In regards to jumping, you're all right. There is real jumping and then there is the Video game jumping. Yes a person could do a standing jump with 45 lbs of armor on, but being able to jump 1/3rd of your height is not what videogames do, they grant you the ability to jump 5-6ft. The problem then becomes race proportions and unintended access. a 3ft character would not likely jump the same height as a 7ft character.

Imagine a group of designers agonizing over the exact height of what a jump should be, then trying to think of how they could make sure that this jump is not exploited to gain access to unintended places or to fall through the world. At some point one person says, "Is there any place in the game people have to jump to get to?" After a few moments the general consensus is "no". Thus jumping gets cut for the sake of the greater good.

Invisible walls though.....those I could live without, if you wanna do something dumb like run off a cliff. Well, you have fun doing that, however the same rules of unintended accesss or falling through the world still apply.

my 2 cents.

Loc Talon · **09-10-2010, 05:22 PM**

TeeBeeDee Wrote:In regards to jumping, you're all right. There is real jumping and then there is the Video game jumping. Yes a person could do a standing jump with 45 lbs of armor on, but being able to jump 1/3rd of your height is not what videogames do, they grant you the ability to jump 5-6ft. The problem then becomes race proportions and unintended access. a 3ft character would not likely jump the same height as a 7ft character.

Imagine a group of designers agonizing over the exact height of what a jump should be, then trying to think of how they could make sure that this jump is not exploited to gain access to unintended places or to fall through the world. At some point one person says, "Is there any place in the game people have to jump to get to?" After a few moments the general consensus is "no". Thus jumping gets cut for the sake of the greater good.

Invisible walls though.....those I could live without, if you wanna do something dumb like run off a cliff. Well, you have fun doing that, however the same rules of unintended accesss or falling through the world still apply.

my 2 cents.

Some valid points you bring up here. However...Jumping in video games is not some new mechanic that requires as much thought process as everyone seems to assume.

SE have openly stated that they have taken several pointers in their game design from Age of Conan, WoW, Diablo, and Warhammer. All of which(with the exception of Diablo) have keybound jumping. I would also like to point out, that many games that involve jumping had little to no areas that required jumping to get to. On release, WoW had one location that you -had- to jump, and that was the Wailing Caverns. Generally, a jumping action is just an added aesthetic.

My argument is not for game mechanics...Just implementation of certain actions that help to contribute and expand on immersion. Common actions that we would be able to perform, if we -were- our characters, living a day in the life on Eorzea.

We would be able to swim.
We would be able to jump.
We would be able screw up somewhere, lose our footing maybe, and fall off a cliff without a magical "safety net" erected around every pitfall.

These are minor features that, if added, would simply add the immersion of the game, whether they have any "purpose" or not.

As for invisible walls...There's already one erected around and throughout the entire continent. See that cliff? Invisible wall. Small embankment? Invisible wall. See the coastline? Invisible wall. Bridge? Invisible wall. I'm not a fan of invisible walls either...Because they detract from immersion. But, I would MUCH rather them take out the crap ton of walls that they already have and minimize their usage for the sheer purpoe of keeping players out of areas they don't want them in, which also begs the question of "why are those areas are in the game to begin with?"

In short...Adding a jump command is not some daunting task, game developers have proven this for several years now(Both in MMOs and in console games). It is not a new concept and is not as difficult to implement as it may seem.

Satrina · **09-11-2010, 09:13 AM**

Also keep in mind, from what I can remember, no Final Fantasy game has had jumping in it. Talking free form jumping, not jumping at designated spots in the world. The reason this is not in the game would probably be due to potential problems, such as 4-6 ppl arriving at a jump spot at the same time and needing to wait in line as each person jumps across. I believe collision detection is on for characters, cant remember from beta, but that would create an issue after the jump occurred. I just see no real benefit to jumping in an MMO as it's never implemented to add an additional layer of challenge and is just cosmetic.

Alvaruz · **09-11-2010, 09:21 AM**

Well, I have been playing quite a lot in the last two days and I must admit that more you play the game, more you catch the little tricks and more the game is fun.

Alright, everyone, or mostly, believes there's some side-quests hidden, so that will be more content and I will never refuse some...

But my scary feelings, my depression over the game mechanics is going away softly. I am ready for launch and today, I will try with the help of my linkshell to craft my self a Bronze Labrys!

Gossamer · **09-11-2010, 04:43 PM**

There's a lot of little polish I still believe the game needs, and I really, really hope SE makes targeting more user friendly. But really, I am so psyched for this game. The only thing that has me worried is the amount of content that is currently available. Oh, I have no doubt that more is coming, I just wonder how long it will take after release. Tongue

Loc Talon · **09-11-2010, 05:36 PM**

Satrina Wrote:Also keep in mind, from what I can remember, no Final Fantasy game has had jumping in it. Talking free form jumping, not jumping at designated spots in the world. The reason this is not in the game would probably be due to potential problems, such as 4-6 ppl arriving at a jump spot at the same time and needing to wait in line as each person jumps across. I believe collision detection is on for characters, cant remember from beta, but that would create an issue after the jump occurred. I just see no real benefit to jumping in an MMO as it's never implemented to add an additional layer of challenge and is just cosmetic.

I'm not entirely sure about the Final Fantasy franchise, but I know that SE has released several games(Both RPG and other) that had free form jumping. What is implemented in game is what I like to call "minor collision detection". Meaning, that you are not completelly restricted from passing through people. What happens, is that when you run into someone, you stop for a little bit(as if they were a solid object), but, after less than a second, you pass on through them.

I would like to point out your last sentence...

Satrina Wrote:I just see no real benefit to jumping in an MMO as it's never implemented to add an additional layer of challenge and is just cosmetic.

This has been my arguement the whole time. As I have said, repeatedly, I am not speaking from a game mechanic point of view or giving it a definative "purpose" in the game. I am speaking in regards to aesthetic, from an RP stand point, from an immersion stand point, from a realism stand point.(yes, I'm using the realism argument again, I think I've provided more than enough valid points for this argument). From these stand points, we can jump IRL, our characters should be able to jump in-game. -Unless-, they provide some sort of official Lore as to why we cannot.

I am still not completelly sure why everything in the game has to have some definative "purpose", "benefit" or have anything to do with the game play...If that is the case...Emotes should not be in the game. The ability to sit should not be in the game. The slew of completelly empty caves(no mobs, no quarry points)...should not be in the game. 90% of the NPCs in Limsa Lominsa, should not be in the game. I can keep going, but I will stop there for the sake of length.

My point is, not everything in a game has to have a "purpose". SE has already implemented elements that have no "purpose" and have clearly thrown in purely for the sake of immersion and RP. Even the Quests(not Guildleves) have no -real- purpose to the game, other than advancing the storyline, which adds to immersion. I just finished the second story quest and it was nothing but cutscenes and dialogue. No fighting. No skill ups. No experience points. No unlocks. All you get for completing it is Gil. Not that I have an issue with this, but as far as the overall game mechanics is concerned, it serves no real purpose.

To that end, it is something that I would merely like to see implemented at some point, along with the other seven "RP Cons" that I listed on page three. Is it something that is going to prevent me from paying for the game? Not in the slightest.

I also included seven "Game Mechanic Cons" in that same post. Isolated, those Cons mentioned are not game breakers, in and of themselves. But, collectively, for me, they will determine if I continue to play the game for an extended amount of time, if left unchecked, after release. For whatever reason, the fact that I mentioned "I would like to see them add a jump button, rather than our character be forever glued to the terrain" is what everyone picked up on, out of the fourteen Cons that I had mentioned.

Satrina · **09-12-2010, 09:20 AM**

Quote:This has been my arguement the whole time. As I have said, repeatedly, I am not speaking from a game mechanic point of view or giving it a definative "purpose" in the game. I am speaking in regards to aesthetic, from an RP stand point, from an immersion stand point, from a realism stand point.(yes, I'm using the realism argument again, I think I've provided more than enough valid points for this argument). From these stand points, we can jump IRL, our characters should be able to jump in-game. -Unless-, they provide some sort of official Lore as to why we cannot.

That's fine and all, but realism in a fantasy MMO setting doesn't work sometimes. Games, movies and books require us to put aside what we know is fact about the real world and suspend our belief.

Perhaps the gravity is 20x greater in Eorzea, perhaps the armor is heavier then real armor, perhaps the fictional races are not built for jumping, perhaps our characters all have lame knees or tore a ligament in track&field. :study:

There are thousands of reasons you could even make up for why your character can not jump RPwise, and you don't need to be able to jump to RP effectively.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

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