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Freyar · **09-09-2010, 08:39 AM**

Gerick Wrote:
Skye Wrote:I for one am glad we are unable to jump.
Coming from WoW, I've seen enough perma-jump idiots for a lifetime
But what will I do whenI'm bored waiting for a group?! :bounce:

If you're Lalafell? Run around like Cleveland Brown, Jr.?

Gerick · **09-09-2010, 08:42 AM**

Freyar Wrote:
Gerick Wrote:
Skye Wrote:I for one am glad we are unable to jump.
Coming from WoW, I've seen enough perma-jump idiots for a lifetime
But what will I do whenI'm bored waiting for a group?! :bounce:

If you're Lalafell? Run around like Cleveland Brown, Jr.?

I'm Hyur, so I guess all I can do is stand around and look pretty.

Freyar · **09-09-2010, 08:45 AM**

Gerick Wrote:I'm Hyur, so I guess all I can do is stand around and look pretty.

God, talk about boring! Tongue

Gerick · **09-09-2010, 08:49 AM**

Freyar Wrote:
Gerick Wrote:I'm Hyur, so I guess all I can do is stand around and look pretty.

God, talk about boring!

Gerick · **09-09-2010, 08:49 AM**

Gerick Wrote:
Freyar Wrote:
Gerick Wrote:I'm Hyur, so I guess all I can do is stand around and look pretty.

God, talk about boring!

Edit: Damn it I quoted myself instead of editing >.>

Loc Talon · **09-09-2010, 01:49 PM**

Skye Wrote:I for one am glad we are unable to jump.
Coming from WoW, I've seen enough perma-jump idiots for a lifetime

I can see where you come from, having also come from five years of WoW. But, I try not to look at it that way. There were also alot of perma-naked dancing idiots in WoW, does that mean that we should not be able to manually remove pieces of equipment or be able to dance?

I mean, not being able to jump is certainly not a game-breaker, by any means, but it would certainly add a more sense of realism to the game if our characters could move as we do IRL. There isn't some magical force holding to the ground as is, if you wanted to you could jump.

I ccompletelly agree, whole-heartedly, about the abundance of "perma-jump idiots" in WoW. But, I don't feel that we should limit ourselves based on the simple-minded actions of others, if we had any any control over it that is. Big Grin

Satisiun · **09-09-2010, 02:03 PM**

Loc Talon Wrote:I can see where you come from, having also come from five years of WoW. But, I try not to look at it that way. There were also alot of perma-naked dancing idiots in WoW, does that mean that we should not be able to manually remove pieces of equipment or be able to dance?

I mean, not being able to jump is certainly not a game-breaker, by any means, but it would certainly add a more sense of realism to the game if our characters could move as we do IRL. There isn't some magical force holding to the ground as is, if you wanted to you could jump.

I ccompletelly agree, whole-heartedly, about the abundance of "perma-jump idiots" in WoW. But, I don't feel that we should limit ourselves based on the simple-minded actions of others, if we had any any control over it that is.

Well. If you really want to use the realism defense ...

Have you considered, however, the vast difference between styles of graphics and character coordination and movements between games like WoW, Aion, and FFXIV?

Look, for example, at how characters in the former two games basically jump on a dime. There's no sort of motion to it, no realism, or visible representation of the character pushing off of their feet and jumping. Largely due to those game's lesser graphics (and yes, I say that about Aion, since the only thing special was character customization and "OH GOD HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ON MY SCREEN AT ONCE!" during forts), they're incapable (or unwilling) to implement the motion of a character pushing off the ground in an actual jumping motion. They just suddenly are off the ground, arms in the air.

Look at FFXIV. Notice how basically even just turning one way to another requires the character to push off of a foot, or veer back? Or how about how they actually slow to a trot and then stop, instead of stopping the split second you let go of the key you're pressing to move them forward, back, or side to side.

This might all sound somewhat tangent-y, but basically the point I am making is that FFXIV is aiming for more realistic motions of characters than either of those games. Because of this, whether jumping should or should not be implemented is less the question, and whether it can or can't be implemented in a way that keeps the realistic movements the game is aiming for with characters in motion.

I don't mean any offense by saying all this, of course. I respect that some people want jumping. But based off the style of game this is, and again, the way the characters are designed to move, I have to also respectfully disagree.

Vond · **09-09-2010, 02:36 PM**

I think I've settled firmly into the large camp of, "I like the feel of the game and am enjoying getting into it, but I think some basic design improvements are drastically needed." Mainly, as others have brought up, a way to manage action bars (and hopefully gear sets) for your different classes without having to concoct macros (and thus having to rework those macros every new job rank that gives you an ability). Right now it is a time-consuming annoyance. At higher levels, with more abilities (especially cross-class abilities that you would want to edit into multiple jobs) and more specialized gear sets, we could be talking three/four macros worth of frustration for every class you want to invest in. I would much rather spend that time exploring new abilities and gear, finding out how they work and how I can apply them to gameplay. The difficulty level is fine, and the involved setup system is fine... just give me a streamlined way to save those setups, please.

This is coming from the perspective of someone who typically invests roughly 50/50 in RP/gameplay. I will say I spent a little time yesterday running around in a part of 3 with friends and that was fun. I think it seems promising, and I look forward to making a stronger party and being able to explore further. We've occasionally stumbled across some gave or island full of scary but interesting monsters we don't stand a chance against yet.

Loc Talon · **09-09-2010, 03:39 PM**

Satisiun Wrote:Well. If you really want to use the realism defense ...

Have you considered, however, the vast difference between styles of graphics and character coordination and movements between games like WoW, Aion, and FFXIV?

Look, for example, at how characters in the former two games basically jump on a dime. There's no sort of motion to it, no realism, or visible representation of the character pushing off of their feet and jumping. Largely due to those game's lesser graphics (and yes, I say that about Aion, since the only thing special was character customization and "OH GOD HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ON MY SCREEN AT ONCE!" during forts), they're incapable (or unwilling) to implement the motion of a character pushing off the ground in an actual jumping motion. They just suddenly are off the ground, arms in the air.

Look at FFXIV. Notice how basically even just turning one way to another requires the character to push off of a foot, or veer back? Or how about how they actually slow to a trot and then stop, instead of stopping the split second you let go of the key you're pressing to move them forward, back, or side to side.

This might all sound somewhat tangent-y, but basically the point I am making is that FFXIV is aiming for more realistic motions of characters than either of those games. Because of this, whether jumping should or should not be implemented is less the question, and whether it can or can't be implemented in a way that keeps the realistic movements the game is aiming for with characters in motion.

I don't mean any offense by saying all this, of course. I respect that some people want jumping. But based off the style of game this is, and again, the way the characters are designed to move, I have to also respectfully disagree.

I would have to disagree. We have already seen videos that depict characters jumping in various cutscenes, as well as the fact that there are several in-game actions that depict jumping(Pugilist's Seismic Wave attack, for example). The animations are there, which is the most difficult aspect of implementing new actions into a game. It's just a matter applying those animations to code and binding them to a key. Taking the amount of detail that have been implemented into the game thus far and the intricacies of the various actions already implement, I would say that it's safe to assume that SquareEnix is more than capable of a simple jumping action.

But, regardless, this is merely something that I would -like- to see implemented and is, in no way, something is "Ohmahgawd, game breaker". I would much rather them fix the design flaws in the Game mechanics before they go on to implement new actions. If it does end up getting implemented, great. If not, that's fine too, so long as the other issues are addressed.

Satrina · **09-09-2010, 08:00 PM**

Lukoya Wrote:Im having Mixed opinions, But my sister has given her opinion about it. Which seems to be clear

"1) I can't redefine my keys to anything meaningful for me rendering it playable.
2) The game crawls even in enclosed buildings unless I turn the settings down to mega low.
3) The downloader is broken as all fuck.
4) The mouse makes it unplayable to play and I still haven't seen any responce that it would be fixed yet.
5) They couldn't even keep a server up for longer than 5 minutes to give out keys, this doesn't bode well for anything pertaining to a game come release.
6) I have not read a single thing about how the game actually plays in practice that is positive. Everything I've read that's negative goes into great detail and everything I've read that's positive just says "IT'S NOT THAT BAD YOU GUYS" without actually debunking anything.
7) From SE's track record with FFIX I'm pretty sure the game will not be fixed."

Just to harp on these points: *Ahem*

1- Keybinding seems to be a possibility now with the menu option. The keys arnt that horrible really right now but I love to keybind as well
2-That's a computer issue not the game, the game is meant for very high end systems right now, just like FFXI was. WoW is the polar opposite and can be played on your grandmothers Win95 Dell.
3-This is annoying, luckily you can easily work around it by using the torrents
4-Mouse doesn't make it unplayable, you don't really even need the mouse, and I have had no issue with it so far. If anything there will more then likely be a hardware mouse that fans create
5-Nothing new here, most if not all companies do not have a server that can work that amount of traffic all at once. There were 10's of thousands of people trying to burst through at once, the site WILL go down.
6-85% of all negative press is a result of misinformation. The other 15% is legit and we have been told is being worked on in some parts. No MMO has ever launched at 100% efficiency. Even WoW launched as a shitpile.
7-Their track record of them fixing some major issues with FFXI? A lot of the early complaints when RoZ was the only expansion were tweaked eventually. It did take a long time but SE seems to have wised up on this and understand that unhappy players will leave and most likely not come back. Does that mean the game should cater 100% to your likes? No, that's ignorant.

Quote:I would have to disagree. We have already seen videos that depict characters jumping in various cutscenes, as well as the fact that there are several in-game actions that depict jumping(Pugilist's Seismic Wave attack, for example). The animations are there, which is the most difficult aspect of implementing new actions into a game. It's just a matter applying those animations to code and binding them to a key. Taking the amount of detail that have been implemented into the game thus far and the intricacies of the various actions already implement, I would say that it's safe to assume that SquareEnix is more than capable of a simple jumping action.

They would have to go back and rescale a lot of the environment currently so that you could still not bypass if you jumped. Why is jumping such a big deal? It's never put ANYTHING into the game other then 1 or 2 jumping puzzles in a dungeon that screw over people who might lag "Hi Draupnirs Cave!". There's no reason you HAVE to jump...ever. How often are you jumping around in real life? Ever tried doing that in full body armor or a robe? Which raises another issue, clothing would have to be tweaked so it didn't clip while doing a jump animation or it would just look sloppy. I

Name me 1 reason jumping should be a standard in MMOs. Coming from WoW 99% of the time I used the jump key it was out of boredom and bouncing around.

Loc Talon · **09-09-2010, 08:56 PM**

Satrina Wrote:They would have to go back and rescale a lot of the environment currently so that you could still not bypass if you jumped. Why is jumping such a big deal? It's never put ANYTHING into the game other then 1 or 2 jumping puzzles in a dungeon that screw over people who might lag "Hi Draupnirs Cave!". There's no reason you HAVE to jump...ever.

First of all, I would like to, once again, mention that it is something that I would -like- to see. I would also like to point out my orginial post that the topic "to jump or not to jump" was spawned from and the fact that it was listed under "RP Cons", meaning...It's something that I would like to see to compliment to the realism and immersion that they have already incorporated, not for game mechanics.

I will also go ahead and address the common rebutal to this...

"Why do you need jumping to RP?"
You don't. But, I feel that it adds to immersion for your character to physically be able to jump, without an emote and have a visual representation. I can provide a list of instances where a jumping animation would benefit RP, if need be.

Satrina Wrote:How often are you jumping around in real life?

When you are in live combat, I can assure you, that you are jumping quite a bit.
When you are scaling cliffs, there are situations that call for jumping.
I went cliff diving two days ago that required a good deal of jumping.
That is just three of many examples that I could provide.

Satrina Wrote:Ever tried doing that in full body armor or a robe?

I'm assuming that you are referring to the weight of "full body armor" in this question...
Contrary to popular belief, the suits of armor that Knights wore in combat, between the 14th and 16th century were. The typical full suit of armor, worn in combat, during those times was between
60 and 70 lbs and the combatants were trained from a young age to jump, crawl, climb, etc. In their full attire.(I can provide sources if necissary). The whole "Armor suits weigh hundreds of pounds" is a myth that was partially due to the fact that sport armor(for jousting, etc.) was significantly heavy than the actual open battle attire, due to various, obvious, reasons.

I'm not sure what the robe reference was for...assuming it's made from cloth, and not weigh much more than your typical clothes, and thus really wouldn't be that hard to jump in.

Satrina Wrote:Which raises another issue, clothing would have to be tweaked so it didn't clip while doing a jump animation or it would just look sloppy.

I'm still not entirely sure what you were trying to say here...In 3D Graphic Animation, all "clipping" is, is removing parts of a given scene, of which there are two types External and Interanl. Mostly used in game for the rendering of landscape detail(the effect that takes place when foliage disappears beyond a certain view distance), which is used for system performance optimization and decreasing lag. I don't understand how this method has anything to do with the polygons of an object and how they would respond to a given animation. Also, it would only look sloppy if they had a crappy 3D animator, which clearly the game shows that the animators they've chosen are quite animated. I would also, once again, like to point out that there are already jumping elements in-game(again, pugilist's Seismic Shock, for example). When your character jumps in that animation it does not look "sloppy" and looks, to me, to be rather seamless with the rest of the graphic design.

Satrina Wrote:Name me 1 reason jumping should be a standard in MMOs. Coming from WoW 99% of the time I used the jump key it was out of boredom and bouncing around.

To jump down cliffs and embankments, so that you don't have to run a mile down the road just to find an opening in the landscape, so that you can get to the mob or nod that you need for that leve quest. I can't tell you how many times I've been mining, and I find the node that I need, just a couple feet underneath me. But, due to the lack of jumping and abundance of invisible walls, I was forced to run alllll the way around, to the other side of the gigantic crater, and then back up the other side to mine the node. A 5-10 minutes wasted that could have been avoided, providing the aforemention conditions were not in place. But, like I said, my wish is purely for the sake of aesthetic and not game mechanics.

EDIT: I went back and read this and I would like to apologize for "smug" overtone in it. Was not my intended tone. Curse you text based communications! <3

Nikolai · **09-09-2010, 09:13 PM**

They also have the unrealistic lack of a falling motion, similar to FFXI. On cliffs that you CAN drop down from, your character just awkwardly descends, and it looks funky. You don't even skip a beat in your running animation. Angry

Hayden · **09-10-2010, 12:58 AM**

Just managed to get some play time in the Beta yesterday and today. I must say all if not MOST of my fears and worries have been put to rest. I am really enjoying the game. It's beautiful, it's intuitive and its fun. No complaints from me really.

Tagyr · **09-10-2010, 01:53 AM**

Adding jumping would be useful for crossing those small cliffs and such. Even if it was restricted to FF13s level, Where you interact with areas to jump across rather than jump on the stop for no reason like in WoW. Basically only jumping where they want you to jump. That way they can retain the areas they don't want people to somehow jump to, and allow people to get to one place or another quicker.

Adding a jump key somehow brings me a vision of hundreds of lalafell jumping all over the place, as they have to be tweaked in order to be able to jump as high as other races, which brings a funny image to my head.

Freyar · **09-10-2010, 02:03 AM**

Tagyr Wrote:Adding jumping would be useful for crossing those small cliffs and such. Even if it was restricted to FF13s level, Where you interact with areas to jump across rather than jump on the stop for no reason like in WoW. Basically only jumping where they want you to jump. That way they can retain the areas they don't want people to somehow jump to, and allow people to get to one place or another quicker.

Adding a jump key somehow brings me a vision of hundreds of lalafell jumping all over the place, as they have to be tweaked in order to be able to jump as high as other races, which brings a funny image to my head.

The problem with XIII's method is that it didn't integrate well. It was far too removed from a natural flow from the animation. I really don't think the team doing XIV would be able to do that properly.

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