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Aya · **08-28-2014, 07:01 PM**

(08-28-2014, 06:41 PM)Melkire Wrote: Definitely agree with Limsa having the best chance of coming out on top.

I'm still a little baffled as to how anyone is supposed to besiege Ul'dah, given how many ground troops they can field. Yes, they're the most vulnerable to a siege once you lock them down because lack of food and water will eventually take its toll once the stockpiles run out and the wells run dry... but getting them into that position seems near-impossible. I'd give a fight on an open, neutral field like Thanalan to thaumaturges behind a shieldwall rather than archers out in the open, so there goes any hope of a Gridanian siege short of Ishgard backing them up. Limsa might manage it, but I can't see them shelling the city from across Western Thanalan, and I'm not certain of the distances involved between Ul'dah and the seas to the south and the east.

P.S. Thanks for the lore dump, Sounsyy. I was almost certain I'd read something about Elementals killing indiscriminately when enraged, but I didn't know where to go to find that information again. IIRC, there's some ARR mentions/allusions toÂ the previous occurrences somewhere in either the MSQ or the CNJ class quests.

Why does a Gridanian siege of Ul'dah fill my head with the vision of Ents marching over an open desert until they steadily catch fire from the heat of the sun one-by-one...

McBeefâ„¢ · **08-28-2014, 07:27 PM**

(08-28-2014, 07:01 PM)Aya Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 06:41 PM)Melkire Wrote: Definitely agree with Limsa having the best chance of coming out on top.

I'm still a little baffled as to how anyone is supposed to besiege Ul'dah, given how many ground troops they can field. Yes, they're the most vulnerable to a siege once you lock them down because lack of food and water will eventually take its toll once the stockpiles run out and the wells run dry... but getting them into that position seems near-impossible. I'd give a fight on an open, neutral field like Thanalan to thaumaturges behind a shieldwall rather than archers out in the open, so there goes any hope of a Gridanian siege short of Ishgard backing them up. Limsa might manage it, but I can't see them shelling the city from across Western Thanalan, and I'm not certain of the distances involved between Ul'dah and the seas to the south and the east.

P.S. Thanks for the lore dump, Sounsyy. I was almost certain I'd read something about Elementals killing indiscriminately when enraged, but I didn't know where to go to find that information again. IIRC, there's some ARR mentions/allusions toÂ the previous occurrences somewhere in either the MSQ or the CNJ class quests.

Why does a Gridanian siege of Ul'dah fill my head with the vision of Ents marching over an open desert until they steadily catch fire from the heat of the sun one-by-one...

Lolorito cackles and pulls off the sheet, revealing a giant magnifying glass on the height of Ul'dah's grand dome.

"BURN!" He shouts, "BURN LIKE THE INSECTS YOU ARE."

Melkire · **08-28-2014, 08:14 PM**

(08-28-2014, 07:27 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 07:01 PM)Aya Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 06:41 PM)Melkire Wrote: Definitely agree with Limsa having the best chance of coming out on top.

I'm still a little baffled as to how anyone is supposed to besiege Ul'dah, given how many ground troops they can field. Yes, they're the most vulnerable to a siege once you lock them down because lack of food and water will eventually take its toll once the stockpiles run out and the wells run dry... but getting them into that position seems near-impossible. I'd give a fight on an open, neutral field like Thanalan to thaumaturges behind a shieldwall rather than archers out in the open, so there goes any hope of a Gridanian siege short of Ishgard backing them up. Limsa might manage it, but I can't see them shelling the city from across Western Thanalan, and I'm not certain of the distances involved between Ul'dah and the seas to the south and the east.

P.S. Thanks for the lore dump, Sounsyy. I was almost certain I'd read something about Elementals killing indiscriminately when enraged, but I didn't know where to go to find that information again. IIRC, there's some ARR mentions/allusions toÂ the previous occurrences somewhere in either the MSQ or the CNJ class quests.

Why does a Gridanian siege of Ul'dah fill my head with the vision of Ents marching over an open desert until they steadily catch fire from the heat of the sun one-by-one...

Lolorito cackles and pulls off the sheet, revealing a giant magnifying glass on the height of Ul'dah's grand dome.

"BURN!" He shouts, "BURN LIKE THE INSECTS YOU ARE."

Lolorito: the hero Saruman needed, but not the one he deserved.

LiadansWhisper · **08-28-2014, 10:32 PM**

(08-28-2014, 06:12 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Not that I think it ultimately makes a difference in Ul'dah's chances, but they do actually have a Healing guild. Frondale's Phrontistery (the Alchemist's Guild) is a hospital and Alchemists by lore are chirurgeons/doctors.

See, when I was doing the quests for Alchemy, they honestly came off as more mad scientists than doctors or chirurgeons. Â But perhaps that's a 2.0 change.

Sounsyy · **08-28-2014, 11:43 PM**

(08-28-2014, 10:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: See, when I was doing the quests for Alchemy, they honestly came off as more mad scientists than doctors or chirurgeons. Â But perhaps that's a 2.0 change.

FFXIV Court in the Sands
(Skip to 13:58 for Phrontistery lore.)

Might be 2.0 change then. As I said in that other thread, almost all Ul'dah lore was wiped out in 2.0. Alchemists are doctors, Pugilists are debt collectors, and Thaumaturges are Ul'dah's lawmakers and morticians.

LiadansWhisper · **08-28-2014, 11:54 PM**

(08-28-2014, 11:43 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 10:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: See, when I was doing the quests for Alchemy, they honestly came off as more mad scientists than doctors or chirurgeons. Â But perhaps that's a 2.0 change.

FFXIV Court in the Sands
(Skip to 13:58 for Phrontistery lore.)

Might be 2.0 change then. As I said in that other thread, almost all Ul'dah lore was wiped out in 2.0. Alchemists are doctors, Pugilists are debt collectors, and Thaumaturges are Ul'dah's lawmakers and morticians.

Every time you tell me about the lore from 1.0 and I look at the lore from 2.0, I want to go into a corner and cry. Â Cry

Marisa · **08-29-2014, 02:01 AM**

With the elementals watching over Gridania, I have no clue how one would stage a successful invasion of the Shroud. However, Limsa is in a position to completely devastate Ul'dah. Much of their trade does come from overseas (keep in mind that Eorzea isn't the entire world, and the only thing left to the East is the Empire). Frankly, the Maelstrom wouldn't even be required to put boots on the ground, assuming the goal was to destroy rather than capture. All that would be needed is to set up a naval blockade, then tell the privateers that Ul'dahn settlements are fair game. Then sit back and watch as port after port burns to the ground. Sure, the Ul'dahn army would slaughter wave after wave of pirates. But that sort of wealth is too great to pass up, and eventually they would succumb to the sheer number of crews from around the globe looking to grab a piece of that sweet desert gold.Â

Not to mention that Limsans are experts in powder weapons. Ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a good musket.

LiadansWhisper · **08-29-2014, 02:22 AM**

(08-29-2014, 02:01 AM)Ryoko Wrote: With the elementals watching over Gridania, I have no clue how one would stage a successful invasion of the Shroud.

I don't think it would be successful, but it could very well destroy Gridania, as well. Â When the Shroud is in the Greenwrath, it isn't picky about what it's killing. Â If the Great One in Everschade were to waken, for instance, the White Mage questline Â seems to indicate that he could level most of the Shroud. Â And that he wouldn't really care who he killed in the process.

Marisa · **08-29-2014, 04:14 AM**

(08-29-2014, 02:22 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-29-2014, 02:01 AM)Ryoko Wrote: With the elementals watching over Gridania, I have no clue how one would stage a successful invasion of the Shroud.

I don't think it would be successful, but it could very well destroy Gridania, as well. Â When the Shroud is in the Greenwrath, it isn't picky about what it's killing. Â If the Great One in Everschade were to waken, for instance, the White Mage questline Â seems to indicate that he could level most of the Shroud. Â And that he wouldn't really care who he killed in the process.

It's possible that a sabotage mission could cause the shroud to self-destruct, but at that point there's no gain to anyone. Better to let them live their lives isolated in their silly little forest than to kill them simply out of spite.

Sounsyy · **08-29-2014, 10:14 AM**

(08-28-2014, 11:54 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Every time you tell me about the lore from 1.0 and I look at the lore from 2.0, I want to go into a corner and cry. Â

1.0 was a good time to be alive.

(08-29-2014, 04:14 AM)Ryoko Wrote: It's possible that a sabotage mission could cause the shroud to self-destruct, but at that point there's no gain to anyone. Better to let them live their lives isolated in their silly little forest than to kill them simply out of spite.

The problem with trying to occupy Gridania is that no matter how you defeat them, you're never going to get access to the resources of the Twelveswood. Regardless of whether you set off the Greenswrath or just kill them out right in battle. If you slaughter the Padjal, the Elementals will never let another Race of Man into the Wood. Ever. They'd sooner destroy the world again.

When Garlemald attempted to burn down the Twelveswood pre-Calamity, they did so because they had no interest in its natural resources. They only saw the forest as a natural barrier to a land-based invasion. Solution: burn it down and get rid of it. Let the fire kill the Elementals and let the Elementals kill the Gridanians. Minimal loss of life on the Garlean side.

The issue is that people outside of the Shroud don't actually believe in the existence of the Elementals. So while you and I both know what the Elementals are capable of, Ul'dah and Limsa probably do not... and I think the Syndicate might be just dumb enough to try invading Gridania. Which would not end well for either side.

Berrod Armstrong · **08-29-2014, 10:28 AM**

On a slight tangent -- Shroud lore buffs, help me out here. What if the Shroud -doesn't- decide to help the Gridanians? What if the Elementals decide "Wow ok these guys are tearing our forest down to get to YOU guys. GTFO We don't need this!"

...What happens then? Is that even a possibility? The thought crossed my mind and now I'm both intrigued and curious.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **08-29-2014, 10:47 AM**

(08-29-2014, 10:28 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: On a slight tangent -- Shroud lore buffs, help me out here. What if the Shroud -doesn't- decide to help the Gridanians? What if the Elementals decide "Wow ok these guys are tearing our forest down to get to YOU guys. GTFO We don't need this!"

...What happens then? Is that even a possibility? The thought crossed my mind and now I'm both intrigued and curious.

Chances are, the Elementals would't /just/ go after the Gridanians though. They'd lash out at everything. They're about as controllable as fire. (Which is this case, would probably be the cause of their rage as well). From what I remember of the 1.0 storyline (never got too far), they pretty much just get enraged, destroy, and either calm down, or get calmed down. But they don't judge. They just attack.

allgivenover · **08-29-2014, 11:19 AM**

(08-29-2014, 10:28 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: On a slight tangent -- Shroud lore buffs, help me out here. What if the Shroud -doesn't- decide to help the Gridanians? What if the Elementals decide "Wow ok these guys are tearing our forest down to get to YOU guys. GTFO We don't need this!"

...What happens then? Is that even a possibility? The thought crossed my mind and now I'm both intrigued and curious.

They would destroy Gridania, withdraw their bond from the Padjal, and kill anyone that tried to remain.Â

The Shroud from 1.0 was probably strong enough to do this without destroying itself. Hell, even wandering the Wood without approval was dangerous as the opening cut-scene for Gridanian characters in 1.0 demonstrated.

[youtube]0xnhhJisWNs[/youtube]

The Shroud post Calamity? I'm not so sure it could do that without nearly destroying itself and leaving it vulnerable to the Garleans. What lies beneath the Evershade could level the entire forest in its rage - but that would not be a good thing for the Wood.

I'm not sure the Elementals would ever come to such a decision, although they think in such an alien way compared to mortals, they understand that they also /need/ Gridania. They need the mortals to solve the mortal problems that will inevitably come to their door regardless of Gridania's presence.

CrookedTarot · **08-29-2014, 11:37 AM**

(08-28-2014, 01:19 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I can see it now.

One thousand years after declaring war on one another, the three nations sit idly by waiting for the first casualty. Ul'dah has reinforced its walls waiting for invasion, Limsa's navy has been sitting with cannons pointed waiting for a force to move, and the Gridanians are sipping tea with the elementals.

War is hell.

"War...War never changes..."

allgivenover · **08-29-2014, 11:43 AM**

As for "who would win", it's difficult to consider Gridania as easily as the other two nations. It is literally a theocracy that's "religion" is really /real/, the other two nations are not built on a magical superpower. Being smote by the Elementals is a real danger, not an abstraction, and Gridania's existence is so tied to the Wood that they're really the same thing at this point. So attempting to destroy Gridania is the same as attempting to destroy the Wood.Â

If we're reducing the argument to "which side can obliterate the other", then the way to beat Gridania is by convincing the Wood that it doesn't want it anymore (which may be impossible without just destroying the Wood entirely). This would be a very difficult thing to do, and maybe impossible, the Wood is huge, much larger than what is depicted in game. The Calamity was able to burn some of it, and I doubt whatever fires Ul'dah or Limsa tried to set compares to Bahamut's fury. So Gridania may be impossible to destroy without Gridanian resistance, and with the Gridanians working to thwart your efforts it's definitely impossible without leveraging something like Allagan super-weapons.

But it also cant really destroy anyone else, so it can't "win" either. Gridania is only interested in external threats. They're largely self-sufficient and don't really even need trade to sustain themselves, because of that their military is structured mostly for defensive purposes. I can't see the might of Gridania being able to destroy Ul'dah or Limsa Lominsa. Ul'dah or Limsa Lominsa could destroy /each other/, and then be in a stalemate with Gridania, but that's where it'd pretty much stop.

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The three nations are at war, who wins?

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