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Faye · **11-06-2014, 08:45 PM**

(11-06-2014, 07:49 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Full disclosure: I engaged in ERP all the way back when I was... fuck it, I don't even remember, maybe 12? 13? To my knowledge absolutely no one has gotten in trouble for it and most people I engaged with didn't even realize I was a minor because I didn't tell them. You're fighting a losing battle if you're concerned about this sort of thing because you are entirely dependent on the word of your partner and if that's a major concern for you, you're better off not engaging in anything resembling ERP at all. Which is silly, mind you. Very silly.

Nononononono. I can agree that ERPing characters who are minors (post-pubescent, of course) is fine if all parties involved aren't put off by it. But OOC minors participating in RP is a huuuuuuuuuuuge no-no. Sure, chances are that if it happens, nothing awful will happen to either party. But that's certainly not always the case. Sexual contact with a minor is a very serious crime. It can get you labelled as a sex offender--which never goes away, and prevent you from living in certain areas, working in certain careers, etc. That should be a major concern. You could argue that you aren't tainting some innocent mind if you're ERPing with a 17-year-old who very obviously already knows what sex is, but even if you can write that off, you're still putting yourself out for the risk of serious trouble.

THAT IS EVERYTHING TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT.

ERPing with a minor, in the eyes of the law, is no different than having sex with a minor. You can say "But, officer, she said she was a 20-year-old catgirl!" or, "But, officer, it wasn't sexual for me at all, it was fiction, it was character development!" but law enforcement won't give one single fuck. And if you think ERPing with minors has never gotten anyone in trouble, you're wrong. A single example: an officer in my FC was actually a military investigator and once had to look into a case of someone (who, predictably, was discharged) ERPing with a minor.

Tiergan · **11-06-2014, 08:58 PM**

I am going to elaborate on the whole RPing as a minor when you're an adult thing later when I have more time, but I just wanted to second what Faye said.

Just because you or people you know didn't have anything bad happen to them when ERPing with a minor, doesn't mean serious consequences haven't happened to others. It's not smart to make light of it or say that you shouldn't bother being concerned about it even if the minor can be a huge douche and lie about their age just so they can ERP.

crowmeleon · **11-06-2014, 09:32 PM**

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. But the problem is is that the fetishization of underage characters is being normalized and pushed on people who are not comfortable with that. "Are there people out there that are only doing this sort of thing to get their rocks off? Of course, and you'd rightfully avoid them."Â Is EXACTLY what we're talking about. I DO get that the subject is a valid topic in terms of literary exploration. But that is not what is happening here. And I also understand that realistically speaking, these interactions will always exist to some degree. But are we really going to say that people playing underage characters "should be making it clear that you're not interested in it, possibly by putting a message in your search info." Â ? After all "that's actually (unfortunately) a fairly common fetish so you really shouldn't be surprised at that at all".

It's a very complicated issue but what it really boils down to is that we aren't talking about a well-thought out plot exploring coming of age and young sexuality (Which in itself is debatable) portrayed in a realistic manner. We're talking about underage characters being regularly approached and pursued sexually within the community. And people are playing purposefully sexualized minors in a fetishized (Not realistic or literary in any matter) way. Which, I guess if we're okay with that I would ask that these people at least consider that many people are extremely uncomfortable with their underage characters being sexualized.

Mae · **11-06-2014, 09:36 PM**

It doesn't matter if your supposed 15-year-old partner is from Iceland, if you're in the US and over 18(for argument's sake, most US states are 18), you could risk trouble by US authorities if the US authorities investigated you.

If you're a minor engaging in ERP, if you refrain from telling your 18+ partner, you can still get them in trouble if your parents find out and decide to press charges. And even if you lied to your partner and told them that you were old enough, if your parents have a good enough lawyer you still risk getting your partner branded as a sex offender.

As for the "only the character is a Minor" thing... it depends on so many things. Laws in the country wanting to prosecute, the explicitness of the act in question, the medium used. Big-name writers have both editors and legal teams that keep them from crossing lines, but even still some books are banned from sale (by county/town law) because they're too explicit. For example, the town I grew up in, only recently could the bookstore and public library put "Clan of the Cave Bear" on the shelves because of laws, but the rest of the Earth's Children series has been available since their original releases.
-- Random factoid I discovered on the internet: some "dating sim" games and "hentai comics" feature characters that are under 18; in their country of origin they're legal but in order for these items to be sold to other countries, localization teams change dialogues and bios to make the characters fit the regions they're selling to so consumers don't run afoul of child pornography laws.

Really, in the end, the whole topic is going to depend on lawyers. And if a lawyer can get a man a $3,000,000 settlement from an RV dealership because the dealership failed to inform the man that cruise control is not auto-pilot, and the man crashed his RV when he got up from behind the wheel in traffic on the highway to make a pot of coffee... yeah.

allgivenover · **11-06-2014, 09:46 PM**

Doubtless, fetishizing is happening and shouldn't be, but this is something that really has nothing to do with RP at all. It's just a problem imported from the outside world.

My two points of disagreement is the idea that consenting adults could get in trouble for written portrayal, and that if there's any possibility that sexually charged RP can happen that you should age your character to whatever age your local government has deemed acceptable. That's needless and ridiculous.

allgivenover · **11-06-2014, 09:47 PM**

(11-06-2014, 09:36 PM)Mae Wrote: As for the "only the character is a Minor" thing... it depends on so many things. Laws in the country wanting to prosecute, the explicitness of the act in question, the medium used. Big-name writers have both editors and legal teams that keep them from crossing lines

-- Random factoid I discovered on the internet: some "dating sim" games and "hentai comics" feature characters that are under 18; in their country of origin they're legal but in order for these items to be sold to other countries, localization teams change dialogues and bios to make the characters fit the regions they're selling to so consumers don't run afoul of child pornography laws.

No, they really don't in the United States at least. We have this thing called the first ammendment that criminalizing this would violate.

As for your random fact, it's because virtual images have since been criminalized, but not written words, no one is talking about images here.

Tiergan · **11-06-2014, 09:59 PM**

Crowmelon pretty much covered all the things I wanted to say.

I am not a prude by any means. I'm as perverted and dirty-minded as they come, but I honestly feel really irritated that I apparently shouldn't be surprised by people propositioning my 15-year old, toddler-shaped innocent girl character for sex by adult-characters and actually have to stick a "No ERP" tag in my search because it's a common fetish.

There's a reason why we look down on a guy if he's 30 years old and propositioning a 15 year old girl - it's because there is something extremely unhealthy and dangerous about that dynamic. Even if the 30-year old guy, by some miracle, actually has good positive intentions and wants to pursue the relationship the right way (is there even a 'right way' really?), there is still so much potential for it to go horribly wrong and lead to him taking advantage of the child or doing really terrible, damaging things.

All of this stuff rarely, if ever, gets addressed in RP where characters that are minors are trying to engage in ERP. It's all heavily fetishized. If that floats your boat - great, but perhaps folks shouldn't be foisting their fetishes onto other people without their consent.

PkThunda · **11-06-2014, 10:21 PM**

As someone who has clients wanting age-play: anyone who thinks that so long as the people are legal age, then it is okay to pretend otherwise is so very incredibly wrong.

It is unhealthy and enabling of fantasies that are dangerous.
Please do not do it.

Tiergan · **11-06-2014, 10:29 PM**

(11-06-2014, 10:21 PM)PkThunda Wrote: It is unhealthy and enabling of fantasies that are dangerous.

This.

I know it's just harmless RP. I know allgivenover mentioned stuff like violence, kidnapping, murder, rape, etc that we let slide - but these are all things we inherently know are wrong and terrible. People RPing out their fetishes of sexual RP with minors don't necessarily view their RP as doing something 'wrong' or at the very least, don't often RP it as something inherently wrong. It is normalizing and enabling something that, to be frank, is a pretty big problem in the world already.

allgivenover · **11-06-2014, 10:36 PM**

I think the sort of people that would do it to satisfy a fetish desire probably are not even reading this topic. They don't care about the merit of their RP, they are satisfying a fantasy.

Like I said, I'm not defending pointless ERP that involves characters under 18. I'm only saying that the idea that two consenting adults writing out text can be criminalized for it is ridiculous and the idea that it's completely untouchable because some individuals are imposing themselves on others is a little misguided and would lead to witchhunts.

crowmeleon · **11-06-2014, 10:41 PM**

(11-06-2014, 09:46 PM)allgivenover Wrote: Doubtless, fetishizing is happening and shouldn't be, but this is something that really has nothing to do with RP at all. It's just a problem imported from the outside world.

My two points of disagreement is the idea that consenting adults could get in trouble for written portrayal, and that if there's any possibility that sexually charged RP can happen that you should age your character to whatever age your local government has deemed acceptable. That's needless and ridiculous.

That's understandable but still dangerous ground to tread.Â

Written portrayals of underage children ARE illegal in some countries, such as Canada (SOURCE). Even within the USA the use of underage erotica has been prosecuted in the past, and is currently a hot issue regarding the definition of obscenity laws (SOURCE)Â and the first amendment, with both sides rallying to make an example of cases. In the past a labeled sex offender was convicted solely on the possession of graphic erotica involving childrenÂ (SOURCE). While I don't like to deal in over-extended 'what-if's, combine that with a charge of sexual conduct with a minor (who lied to you about their age) and no, it is not harmless material.Â

This is very much an issue in its infancy with little precedent to define what is or is not legal to the the legal system.Â What little precedent there is is either poorly enforced or changed completely.

The wording in the laws on both a state and federal level is vague, often referring to child pornography as "any child pornography or depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct" (SOURCEÂ : pg 1,Â 18 U.S.C. Â§Â§ 2252A. (a) (1)â€“(3)). Cited policy even differentiates between said "depictions" and "any visual depiction of child pornography" (SOURCEÂ : pg 1,Â 18 U.S.C. Â§Â§ 2252A. (a) (5)â€“(6)). That is on a federal level.

On a state level, things get even messier. Let me give just a few examples.

CALIFORNIA: "California Penal Code Â§ 311.11. Possession of obscene matterial depicting someone known to be younger than 18 years of age engaging in or simulating sexual conduct is a felony punishable by imprisonment for up to one year,Â
ore a fine of not more thatn $2,500.00, or both. " (SOURCE: pg 6,Â California Penal Code Â§ 311.11)

Well that's rather vague, let's look at the code itself. Just how do we define "obscene material?"Â

"(a) "Obscene matter" means matter, taken as a whole, that to the
average person, applying contemporary statewide standards, appeals to
the prurient interest, that, taken as a whole, depicts or describes
sexual conduct in a patently offensive way, and that, taken as a
whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific
value." (SOURCE: CA Penal Codes 311 (a))

(b) "Matter" means any book, magazine, newspaper, or other printed
or written material, or any picture, drawing, photograph, motion
picture, or other pictorial representation, or any statue or other
figure, or any recording, transcription, or mechanical, chemical, or
electrical reproduction, or any other article, equipment, machine, or
material. "Matter" also means live or recorded telephone messages if
transmitted, disseminated, or distributed as part of a commercial
transaction. (SOURCE: CA Penal Codes 311 (b))

But of course, then we have the gloriously vague "lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" (SOURCE: CA Penal Codes 311 (a)) - Under which those aforementioned books containing depictions of minors were legalized. So at what point does rp "lack seriously literary value"? And then the code contradicts itself:

Â Â (h) The Legislature expresses its approval of the holding of
People v. Cantrell, 7 Cal. App. 4th 523, that, for the purposes of
this chapter, matter that "depicts a person under the age of 18 years
personally engaging in or personally simulating sexual conduct" is
limited to visual works that depict that conduct."

This post is getting lengthy So just one more example, For Pensylvania:
18 Pa. C.S.A. Â§ 6312. © Selling, distributing,Â
disseminating, or displaying any book,Â
photograph, film, or computer depiction of aÂ
child less than 18 years old in a prohibitedÂ
sexual act or simulation is a third degree felony.Â
18 Pa. C.S.A. Â§ 6312. (d) Possession of anyÂ
book, picture, magazine, photograph, film,Â
computer depiction, or any other materialÂ
containing a child younger than 18 years old inÂ
a prohibited sexual act or simulation, is a thirdÂ
degree felony.Â
(SOURCE: 18 Pa. C.S.A. Â§ 6312. ©-(d))

My point here is not to prove the content legal or illegal in certain places in USA but to show what a royal clusterfuck the current laws concerning the material are, and contradictions not just within the codes themselves but in the actions of the courts. I don't like over-exaggerated 'what ifs' like I said, so chances are this will never be relevant to you. But to say that there is absolutely no risk just isn't true either. I'm sure I could go through the codes of every state, every province, and find these same inconsistencies and exploitable loopholes. Combine that with the risk of rping with a minor unknowingly and you could very well end up the poster-child for future policies regarding the issue.Â

Well, to say 'you', isn't right. These issues are going to be roused not by those privately and prudently engaging in roleplay of genuine literary value. But those people will still be affected and held to the same policies triggered by, for lack of a better word, idiots like those harassing underage characters in game. Not even starting on the fact that laws change- And ARE changing.Â

But at the end of the day that was not the point of this thread. The problem is that this is a theme that makes many people EXTREMELY uncomfortable, and as a community it is being normalized to the point that people playing underage characters are being regularly exposed to unwanted, unsolicited explicit advances.

allgivenover · **11-06-2014, 10:49 PM**

It's my understanding that the California law has only been used to pile on a case against someone who was already under investigation for child pornography, it has never been used against anyone who only wrote something, and if it was it would be challenged and dismissed in an appeal court.

The fears about this are completely unfounded.

EDIT: Also please don't mistake me, I'm not really getting in the discussion about if it's right or if it shouldn't be done, as that's completely up to personal opinion and doubtless there are those here who think me a monster for providing a dissenting view that I will never convince otherwise regarding this kneejerk issue.

Tiergan · **11-06-2014, 10:53 PM**

(11-06-2014, 10:41 PM)crowmeleon Wrote: But at the end of the day that was not the point of this thread. The problem is that this is a theme that makes many people EXTREMELY uncomfortable, and as a community it is being normalized to the point that people playing underage characters are being regularly exposed to unwanted, unsolicited explicit advances.

I am just going to bold all of this.

Parvacake · **11-06-2014, 10:56 PM**

(11-06-2014, 10:49 PM)allgivenover Wrote: The fears about this are completely unfounded.

Saying that they are completely unfounded may be a little harsh. I had an old friend who had started up an online relationship with a woman he thought was in her twenties and during that time they did text based erotica and RP with one another as the relationship went on.

One day I'm on the phone with him and he gets a knock on his door from the police. That twenty something was actually a sixteen year old girl whose mom read her chatlogs when she had stepped away from the computer for dinner and called the police.

It was very real and he got in trouble for it. Not enough to be convicted as a sex offender, but it still made a negative impact over his life.

Sophia_Grave · **11-06-2014, 11:02 PM**

For some people, Roleplay is just cooperative storytelling and that's great. For others, it isÂ roleplay, which, as PkThunda said, can lead down some dangerous roads.

Essentially, its intent.

However, I do want to say that, as a person with an underage character, it makes me extremely uncomfortable when players try to enter into a sexual encounter with her. I would totally be okay with a /tell asking me whether or not this was okay, but those never come. It begins like any RP session does, and I'm so exhausted of parsing each line of every RP she's involved with to find out whether or not I should bail, to point where I don't even want to enter into random RP anymore.

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