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OttoVann · **11-08-2014, 02:01 AM**

Title alludes to it.

Allow me to explain further. I RP Otto as an 'aloof' playboy. Rich beyond compare IC (and ooc), extremely talented Artisan who knows how to create works of art with his hands. Hes physically large and powerful and dominating but he lacks combat prowess. AKA a punch would hurt and his grip is impressive - but he lacks martial training. He is also very well entrenched and connected to Syndicate affiliations with a subtle and non-implied emphasis on the ability to lean on those connections mafia-style to get the task done, whatever that may be.

So this leads me to how to handle dilemmas ICly.

For example tomorrow, if random cool-dude shithead goes out of their way to pick a fight with Otto and even hurt/hit him....what then? OOC/IC I could summon easily over a dozen people to fuck and fuck and fuck with this person IC to the point where it could be considered harassment almost. However, is that so wrong considering that would be the consequence of their IC actions?

Otto doesn't fight, at all. If tomorrow cool-dude X kicked his ass, he would dare cool-dude X to kill him because he if he doesn't the reaction will be severe and very real (ic and ooc).

My dilemma is...what do I do? Do I sick the hounds on them if organic RP leads to them laying hands on me or do I spare them being 'bullied' and fucked with for touching me by my connections? Its very easy to say "Well its up to them and how they consent." True but its also easy for me to retort with that if someone is pushing a fight onto Otto and they are /very/ clearly beside themselves with their aggression. What sort of IC consequences should they face, if any?

Ermine · **11-08-2014, 02:05 AM**

From what you've shared, Otto seems like, if he's the villain and the hero says "YOU WON'T GET AWAY WITH THIS" Otto's the villain who turns to his right hand man and says, "Please ensure I get away with this."

That's really easy to say, if someone has it in to really force you into writing Otto in this situation, it's not likely to be that easy, but I also think someone who's THAT INVESTED in forcing Otto into a situation like that is someone you RP with or want to tell that sort of story with, or someone you'll be happier having on your block list, though.

FreelanceWizard · **11-08-2014, 02:33 AM**

In the end, it does all come down to communication and consent. Smile

These sorts of situations are tricky in RP that isn't associated with a group with rules and social standards, as the only recourse you have a person not agreeing to an IC consequence is to non-consent and walk away. There's no way to enforce consequences.

That said, the way I handle it (and the way Mysterium handles reciprocal consent in our charter) is that a person consents to receive the same level of action from a person and their immediate peer group as they delivered to that person. We delineate four levels of action: social interaction (to which everyone automatically consents), use of powers/abilities whether or not they cause character changes, temporary character changes, and permanent character changes (including death). A person has to ask for consent before escalating a situation to a "higher" level.

So, in your example, if Otto were to consent to getting hit by Mr. Badass, Otto's experienced either a use of abilities or a temporary character change, depending on the level of injury. Then, Otto and his peer group (or minions, I suppose) get to do the same level of thing to Mr. Badass, as he automatically consents to the same level of action. That could mean pushing him around (use of abilities) or roughing him up (temporary character change) for one scene, if Mr. Badass only interacted with Otto for one scene. If it's a pattern of behavior, then Otto and his buddies/minions get to exhibit the same pattern of behavior. If it might escalate into a permanent character change (say, by breaking his will or his back), Mr. Badass has to ask consent -- and if Otto gives it, then Otto and his minions can retaliate with lethal force.

The levels of action, the reciprocal consent (aka "auto-consent"), and the time limitations are all there to ensure fairness in conflict RP, and to provide justification for the enforcement of ICA = ICC. Everyone knows that if they escalate a conflict as an IC action, auto-consent ensures that they have to accept the equivalent action as an IC consequence -- and if not, there's OOC consequences for violating the consent rules in the charter. Of course, this only works well in a group where you have some control. Outside of that... all you can do is negotiate and avoid people who won't be reasonable. I have found, though, that following these principles tends to get people to agree to IC consequences of their actions as they feel it's "fair;" you can't hit them with a consequence that's worse than what they did to you.

crowmeleon · **11-08-2014, 03:00 AM**

(11-08-2014, 02:01 AM)OttoVann Wrote: Title alludes to it. Â

Allow me to explain further. Â I RP Otto as an 'aloof' playboy. Â Rich beyond compare IC (and ooc), extremely talented Artisan who knows how to create works of art with his hands. Â Hes physically large and powerful and dominating but he lacks combat prowess. Â AKA a punch would hurt and his grip is impressive - but he lacks martial training. Â He is also very well entrenched and connected to Syndicate affiliations with a subtle and non-implied emphasis on the ability to lean on those connections mafia-style to get the task done, whatever that may be.

So this leads me to how to handle dilemmas ICly. Â

For example tomorrow, if random cool-dude shithead goes out of their way to pick a fight with Otto and even hurt/hit him....what then? Â OOC/IC I could summon easily over a dozen people to fuck and fuck and fuck with this person IC to the point where it could be considered harassment almost. Â However, is that so wrong considering that would be the consequence of their IC actions?

Otto doesn't fight, at all. Â If tomorrow cool-dude X kicked his ass, he would dare cool-dude X to kill him because he if he doesn't the reaction will be severe and very real (ic and ooc).

My dilemma is...what do I do? Â Do I sick the hounds on them if organic RP leads to them laying hands on me or do I spare them being 'bullied' and fucked with for touching me by my connections? Â Its very easy to say "Well its up to them and how they consent." Â True but its also easy for me to retort with that if someone is pushing a fight onto Otto and they are /very/ clearly beside themselves with their aggression. Â What sort of IC consequences should they face, if any?

I would bring it back to OOC communication. Just politely discuss the matter with the person OOC, letting them know you and your contacts have it arranged so that conflicts with Otto may result in the consequences listed. Some people love that kind of thing, so as long as they're aware they'll be happy to participate.Â

But being completely realistic? Such actions could have repercussions as to your personal reputation depending on how the people you deal with feel about the matter. For a lot of people, depending on how you handle it, it could come off as a borderline overpowered character. In general people don't enjoy engaging in conflicts that one party has already decided the outcome of, whether directly or indirectly by design of their character. That quickly turns into people not really wanting to engage in rp at all. Not out of spite, but because they can't for risk they'll be faced with conflict with consequences they are not comfortable with.Â

It can be a strange catch-22 in which the more powerful your character the less wiling people are to fall prey to your character's influence.Â

It's a difficult subject I've thought about quite a bit myself when considering a similar character. Though he's far more keen on false airs and underhanded manipulation than direct conflict, I still find myself in a dilemma. Because while he's a good deal of fun for me to play, as well as other people 'in' on the dynamic or plot... I can see where were I to realistically hold other rpers to his IC influence, many of them would probably cease having fun. And at the end of the day, people want to enjoy the rp they're involved in. But NOT realistically holding others to his influence belittles that influence, so I instead have to work around it. I treat him as an alt/NPC, though, so it's even harder when it's your main.Â

It reminds me very much of playing villains in smaller campaigns. One of the easiest follies to fall into is forgetting that the other people involved are in it to 'win' as well. So no matter how impressive your villain or elaborate their shenanigans, at the end of the day if you don't make the party feel like they've received their fair share of victory, they're going to end up dissatisfied.

I really don't know Otto or the context of these conflicts so I can't offer much more advice, but I think it really comes down to polite OOC communication. And in matters like these, phrasing is everything. Good luck!

Titor · **11-08-2014, 03:13 AM**

If someone picks a fight with Otto ICly and you harass/get people to harass the player OOCly that is kind of a terrible thing to do.

Verad · **11-08-2014, 03:50 AM**

Edit: It's late, so I would rather not frame this in the form of question and answer on my part. A more complete response:

You handle conflict RP by acknowledging that you may have to bend your concept a bit to make conflict work. As it stands,Â you portray the character, both in-game and in your IC fiction, as having no real weaknesses that can't be compensated for by his wealth and his network of employees and contacts. That makes for boring conflicts.

It's also slightly disingenuous of you to say that the character lacks martial training, because you have also been on record as preferring a grounded, realistic approach to combat, in which size and strength can outweigh skill - and have then framed your character as having a great deal of both in comparison to most other people.

Between the two, you may have written yourself into a corner with regards to conflicts, into a situation in which a fight between yourself and random-cool-guy-X (take note, too, of the way you frame the possibility of random conflicts, both in this question and in your IC fiction) has to end either fatally for Otto or the other guy, or not have such things happen at all. If you want to avoid these, seriously consider dialing back the things that make Otto a difficult character for this purpose.

Kellach Woods · **11-08-2014, 04:01 AM**

(11-08-2014, 03:13 AM)Titor Wrote: If someone picks a fight with Otto ICly and you harass/get people to harass the player OOCly that is kind of a terrible thing to do.

More importantly, GM actionable.

Jazz Egi · **11-08-2014, 06:54 AM**

In my experience OOC dialogue is all but essential for any rp conflict. There are many issues to be considered such as consequences and character power. Without stats or a DM there is no hope for unscripted combat.

Lucky for me nobody wants to hit Tally. She's pretty weaksauce even for a magician.

Nebbs · **11-08-2014, 08:13 AM**

Well as a seasoned and established man of means and intellect I would think you would have such things already worked out and such a situation not to be surprising. While IC you can probably assert resources to actually get that to stick with other players can be a problem.Â

So best would be an ooc agreement with the other player on what may happen and how it is handled. You may consider an independent GM and some simple resource and action rules (your opponent can hit you in moments, your hired help takes time to get there etc..)

However, in a more open and maybe ooc antagonistic RP then you are left with controlling just your own character. So some ideas are:

1. Have extraction body guards rather than attack guards, you get whisked out. This could be before or after any fight.

2. Offset the pain by arranging to fight at a time and place, and consider a champion or a substitute (full plate can hide many things), or you could end up otherwise engaged

3. Play to your strengths and pay them off, maybe even get them to take a fall (could be gil or favours)

etc..

OttoVann · **11-08-2014, 11:35 AM**

(11-08-2014, 03:13 AM)Titor Wrote: If someone picks a fight with Otto ICly and you harass/get people to harass the player OOCly that is kind of a terrible thing to do.

I dont think I implied this, more along the lines of OOC the person may wonder or be surprised so miuch would come their way IC. Which may or may not be the problem. I'm not looking to 'hold people accountable' or be an ass. I suppose the only real course of action would be to establish with them something along the lines of "You know if you seriously hurt me IC I would expect you to receive shit back your way."

I guess the problem is how much do they receive? Its complicated.

I've dealt with this on a small scale already and those that work with me, even they said "It needs to be IC for IC reasons and everyone agrees."

Actually all of this brings up another question I'm wondering then. IC stalking akin to being spied on or having someone spied on. How does that work, should you only and always get consent before you have people casually and very much not-obviously follow to get information? Myself I've been stalked/spied on...4 times now at various RP events I think. Half the time I was given a headsup, half the time I just noticed the same person constantly targetting me after an hour or two and moved around in a way to confirm that was their goal. None of it bothered me, but it made me wonder what sort of shit I was in. However, what is the 'best' way to handle or go about doing that myself to other people since everyone keeps bringing up GMs now.

FreelanceWizard · **11-08-2014, 11:47 AM**

IC spying is a little trickier, but typically I consider it a form of social interaction. That means there's really no retribution to apply besides talking to them or, if at an event, the event's IC security. An RP event usually has some rules, and while all they can do to a person who doesn't follow them is complain OOCly and tell people to ignore the rule-breaker, most people seem to play nice in that regard. While L'yhta is thoroughly oblivious, in other games, I've gone right up to the spy/stalker and engaged them in RP. Sometimes they run off, sometimes they tell me OOC that they thought my character was interesting and they were just listening OOC, and sometimes they RP the situation. It's hard to tell why a person is keeping an eye on you without asking them IC or OOC. Smile

In Mysterium, we have a rule about auto-consenting to the reasonable declared defensive mechanisms of a character's "sanctum," which typically refers to private locations of their creation and under their control such as FC house rooms. So, if someone follows you around and spies on you out in public, that's an IC social interaction (assuming they don't hide themselves by, say, using magic on you) for which there can be IC social responses. However, if they were to follow you into your house, where you've stated you have guards, magitek locks, and a magitek cannon set to fire on unauthorized visitors (for example), they automatically consent to those guards booting them out, the lock keeping them out, or the cannon giving them an extremely bad day.

Kylin · **11-08-2014, 04:00 PM**

Had a long post ready to post but it was getting waaay off topic and seemed to be shifting focus to the "wealthy/powerful family" angle and ways to RP it without overstepping bounds. So gonna trim this down to be more on topic xD.

In the case you mentioned of a random person starting the fight, it's a bit trickier than with someone you already know. So there are best two routes to take in this circumstance, in my opinion were I in the same situation.

--Go with the flow, making sure the other player knows that there may be consequences (letting them know in detail what kind of consequences in advance) and see what they would want to do with this, if anything.

If the player doesn't agree to your terms, you can cease the RP session and both go separate ways, taking note of each other's conflicting style for the future.

OR

--Let the fight happen, take a whipping, and just assume you were unable to find out who the person was and thus can't exact your revenge. Then ICly take out your anger on your buddies or something to rebuild ego Tongue

.

Nebbs's suggestions are also valid means to deal with the situation.

OOC communication is always crucial in IC conflict (especially actual fighting). It doesn't matter if one of the characters is wealthy, poor, powerful, etc. The only reasons you don't OOC communicate with the other party is if you're apathetic to the outcome, or you're comfortable with the other party.

C'kayah Polaali · **11-08-2014, 04:52 PM**

Everything that has already been said: +1.

For me, it all comes down to OOC communication where needed. Granted, I prefer bottom-up RP (where there isn't an OOCly communicated plot), but that doesn't mean that there isn't any OOC communication about what is and is not okay.

The conflict should only exist ICly. OOCly, you and your opponent should be on the same side - the side that creates an enjoyable story.

Titor · **11-08-2014, 08:13 PM**

(11-08-2014, 11:35 AM)OttoVann Wrote: I dont think I implied this,Â

Ah the line
Â "if he doesn't the reaction will be severe and very real (ic and ooc)."
Kind of sounded like an OOC threat to me, sorry.

Vysce the Lad · **11-08-2014, 08:43 PM**

Personally, I think that any rper should understand that their actions will sometimes bring upon certain effects that come to bite them. For example, I'm currently trying to roleplay this Ala Mhigan refugee who's anger towards losing his home has turned him into a bit of a jerk. There was a time where he was in a mood and shoved a guy who he shouldn't had shoved over an opinion he didn't agree with, and my character got the snot beaten out of him (with dice rolls).

I think the same would happen in settings like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and Skyrim. It does, in fact. Also in real life, if you are a jerk to a bigger person they will sometimes squash you. I saw a film about it.

>.< Uhm, funniness aside, I think it would be kinda fitting if Otto's "thugs" went after this guy. Like some Ul'dahn mobsters that corner him and are all, "Hey, don't ever do that again or we'll pound you into mush, see?" There a difference between doing that and sending your guys to harass this character over and over again. No one wants that. Aside from bad writing, it's just annoying, and keep in mind that there is a person on the other side of that character who still wants to do his thing and play the game.Â

Most rpers tend to follow invisible guidelines for rping anyway. At the end of the day, you could always whisper the other guy and and maybe come up with some sort of scenario to get back at this bout of fisticuffs. Not saying make a time and write a script out (unless... you're into that Undecided

), but there's never anything wrong with an ooc whisper.

Good luck to you though~ I think impromptu consequences are the best parts about rp. It lets my character really grow with the choices they make.Â Moogle

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I don't know how to handle conflict RP at all

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