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Warren Castille · **11-19-2014, 10:32 AM**

(11-19-2014, 10:19 AM)Gegenji Wrote: This is actually something I noticed and was bothered by back in WoW. "To run this raid, you have to have run this raid." Before the advent of the Raid Finder modes and the like, the only way to get experience on the raid content was to have an in through a friend in a raiding guild who was willing to vouch for you.

It's certainly not a field you can just waltz into, and I still remember how daunting it was as a fledgling raider back in the days of Molten Core 40 mans. At least there, the raid sizes were so bloated that you could coast along on everyone else's skill until you got the hang of things. I'm terrified to think how such things work in Coil, where there's such a difference in raider number. As such, I've only gotten to the first Coil... 2 (?) - the one before the "bouncy castle" - and that was through Duty Finder queues.

WoW's Looking for Raid difficulty is pretty great. The instant-death mechanics get turned down to raidwide damage, the raidwide damage gets reduced to far lesser numbers, and the difficulty is greatly decreased when it comes to healing/dps checks.

Of course, there's always the "problem" that an unknowledgeable tank will still explode everyone if they don't know what to do or where to stand, but even that was toned down for LFR.

Coil's got that problem, still. Even after nerfs and echo, a tank standing in the wrong place can and will kill you. Titan EX Gaols come to mind, Garuda EX placement comes to mind, Dreadnaughts in T4 will still wreck healers with cleaves...

And yes, you've done Turns 1 and 2 of the First Coil of Bahamut. Most people skip the Bounce House because there's no loot, no echo, no boss, no reasons.

Kage · **11-19-2014, 11:04 AM**

From the spoilers I've read into FCOB, there isn't just speculation but real....plots? Points? Yes I'm gonna half-heartedly slap you on this because dear fucking god do I want to be finished with T12 and T13 because what I've heard about them and what is going on is -sweeeet-.

The thing is, I'm happy they make "older" content more accessible. Honestly? I hate running T5 as just a "one off" or so with only one other person. If I don't have 6 other people (not just me and a person who needs it), it's such a pain to revisit because of the mechanics in the fight and not being able to trust said other "randoms". But when you can get a full party to wipe away at it, stick at it for a bit, you can eventually teach them how to deal with said mechanics if they're going to be raiding. I'd rather wipe with a group I know, and also prepared mentally because it can be exhausting otherwise, than do it with one or 3 people I know and the rest people that may leave in 30 minutes.

When the mechanics are messed with, the fights become almost entirely different. But sometimes those things happen just because of gear. I haven't done T7 yet since 2.41 and since the lockout was removed so this way we can go do T9 or go to T8 for farming, etc., but T7 was a completely weird and messed up fight because of gearing. We had long periods of time when we had to hold dps for a new voice or shriek because we didn't want to transition awkwardly -just because of gear-.

My opinion is that if you do care about raiding, you're most likely striving for the new content. If you do like the challenge, you reduce the gear you have to what is the ilvl requirement to queue into DF with like minded people. At those ilvls, a 3.5k hit to a mage will still hurt; it's still punishing when you take that blighted. I think the fights can still be quite challenging if you're doing it like that but if you're geared for T13 accuracy reqs and you're stuck at T5, I'm pretty sure you want to just be done with BCOB already. If you're striving for the new content and are behind (aka BCOB headed for FCOB) you might want to finish SCOB as fast as possible while T5 and T9 are still good gates.

T5 took me about 1 month (a couple of weeks of daily 1.5+hr sessions) to get comfortable with the mechanics and start clearing consistently with people, having gotten to see T5 a week or three before the lockout on T5 was removed and SCOB introduced. I've been working on T9 for maybe a month of raiding, 2-3 days a week and only just reached the sight of phase 4. I hit T9 like 2 weeks or so before 2.4 hit.

With echo, a Benediction or Lustrate is not nearly as needed on our Single Tank in T9 as it was before with Ravensbeak+kablooey it has. The double meteor streams that used to kill me are much more easily healable than before. The "your healer needs to time that Medica II better" isn't quite as jarring and needed. I walked into T9 last night with almost 6k hp as a BLM. 6000! With some of the food to boost my dps, I was almost 6100! The cleaves aren't going to one-shot me anymore due to nerfs or because the damage done is reduced. See blighted for reduced damage.

I mean, some things do come with raiding. Positioning a mob so that they don't deal massive damage to your group is a tank's job, not just getting hit in the face. There still is more to the fights than general tank and spank. Your party shouldn't just be everywhere willy-nilly taking all the damage as if they -are- a Â -tank- either.

I think T3 is good for SBing but I forgot what ilvl. That's about it. The loot is the random general dungeon loot like potions or x-ethers etc. Nothing like the drops at the end of each turn like a HA CHEST OF HEALING OR WHATEVER.

Warren Castille · **11-19-2014, 11:27 AM**

I should point out that while I'm in favor of the massive nerfs, I'm also a bit remiss that a portion of the game is now irrevocably changed. The closest thing I can liken it to is this:

The FFXI exp grind was a miserable one, with a lot of inconvenient locations, a lot of grueling grinding hours and a lot of pushing hard for your levels. Expansions came out and made it easier, but then there came a way to mass-level stuff for minimal effort and it completely removed the block that was the leveling process.

I acknowledge this was a beneficial change for the game as a whole. I understand it was a good thing.

BUT THAT WON'T STOP MY STOCKHOLM SYNDROME. Leveling was a badge of honor, until it wasn't. I'm always going to have a degree of nonsensical nostalgia for how things were when they get changed suddenly.

Also

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Inessa Hara · **11-19-2014, 11:30 AM**

SCOB T6-8 is so easy now, lol. I cleared T6 the first day of 2.4.1 patch on my first try and without knowing how to do the fight, lol.

I think they have not nerfed T9 in some way yet save Echo buff because they are still looking into what they can nerf. That or they will just keep everything as is but give echo buff to help survive and push phases. IDK. Kinda dont want them to nerf T9 though, even though I have never played or attempted it yet.

Kage · **11-19-2014, 11:39 AM**

If I remember correctly, the only things they changed in T5 were the conflags' and others' health. Other than that, as far as I'm aware, the fight stayed the same. T9 is the same just with -10%- echo.

10% is big xD When BCOB got echo, it was only 5% at first. I think it's now 25% @_@ If I take my BLM into T5, it will have 6.5k hp. That's how much my Bard has in T9. My Astral III'd Fire 1s will go from 1200 to 1500 (non crit!).

I feel like T5 and T9 are still good "raid gates". You still need to learn to raid, learning to deal with mechanics and such.

allgivenover · **11-19-2014, 11:52 AM**

Unless you cleared Second Coil before 2.4 then changes are a moot point for you anyway. Even going in with a single piece of poetics gear is missing the boat.Â

Nerfing old content when new stuff comes out has always been thier plan, I just don't think they expected to have to nerf it so heavily.

Kage · **11-19-2014, 12:03 PM**

I definitely didn't expect the nerfs to the extent that they did but then again T1-4 mechanics wise were and are no-where near the mechanics in even T6 or T7. Or even T8 pre 2.41. There weren't much mechanics to begin with in T1-4 to get nerfed. T6-8 just plain had more.

Sounsyy · **11-19-2014, 12:31 PM**

[Image: mechanics_everywhere_by_grizby9-d3c1u31.png]

(I found this and I couldn't not! Sorry not sorry!)

Kellach Woods · **11-19-2014, 12:34 PM**

I find the social aspect of raiding the crumpets of bahamoot far more of a challenge than any mechanics. Mechanics can be overcome - raiding mentality/politics, not so much.

Kage · **11-19-2014, 12:35 PM**

Walking into T6 right after the first T5 clear was so weird. AHHH THE SCREEN WENT FUZZY. AHH THESE VINES WHAT DO? WAHHH THESE ADDS ARE SHOWING UP. WAHHH WHAT'S THIS ICON OVER MY HEAD???

We didn't even make it to blighted lol

The real issue is getting a raid group together, for me. I -love- progression. I love to constantly progress each fight or week with the same people on the "leading" content. It took me so very long to find another group I loved. "Hold we need to put the kids to bed." or "Yeah we gave the kids a movie to watch" are first amusing as hell and then slightly disturbing that parents will put their kids in front of a movie so they can raid for an hour and a half on Saturday... >.>; "Hold she needs to look pretty (put a glamor on)"

Edit: Nothing beats "Team Whoever-was-not-here-when-we-pugged-the-turn-and-cleared-the-first-time"

Kellach Woods · **11-19-2014, 12:40 PM**

I find the social aspect of raiding the crumpets of bahamoot far more of a challenge than any mechanics. Mechanics can be overcome - raiding mentality/politics, not so much.

Dealt with it once in WoW, with a guild that wasn't even close to finishing current content but had all the negative aspects of a top tier raid guild. Why would I subject myself to this here is beyond me.

Although I find it kind of hilarious that you say "Youtube it" when it comes to the content - Youtubing the content doesn't give you the sweet looking gear and the desire to look awesome should never be underestimated.

Miryn · **11-19-2014, 12:46 PM**

An enormous factor in how enjoyable raids are is definitely the people. I would say the difficulty of it is 75% the people and 25% the actual fights.

Back when we only had 1st Coil, if you'd asked me if I liked raiding, I would've said no. My RL friend was the static leader and cobbled together a group from the FC, with me as one of the tanks. We were decent - got up to Twisters before 2.2 came out - but I wouldn't say we meshed all that well. A couple of people's personalities grated on me, one of them had a bad habit of starting idle chatter in Vent when we were trying to clear a phase that was giving us trouble, and we had a couple of flakes who sometimes wouldn't show up unless we found them through Facebook or someone else knew their number, and wasted a lot of time trying to get ahold of them or find a replacement the night of. Actually learning the fights was just exhausting, and the myth gear was equal to, if not better than, what dropped in the turns. I pretty much only stayed out of a sense of loyalty to my friend and FCmates and my personal policy of "if it is within my power to tank it, then point me in its direction and I'll go greet it with my face".

My friend had to take a hiatus back in May/June. A few more members left the game. Our SCH took over and we merged with another FC static that had fallen apart. If you ask me now if I like raiding, I'd tell you yes. All of my group are chill people, we never yell at each other, when we wipe we go over what went wrong and how we can do better, if our strat needs adjusting. Skill-wise, we are decent but not amazing - we raid 4-5 hours a week; it took us about 3 weeks each to beat T6-T8, and then T9 took 13 weeks... yeah, a lot of hours. A lot of wiping, a lot of food and potions, a lot of making mistakes, a lot of watching your friends make mistakes and swearing not to repeat them, then making the same mistakes anyway until it's been ingrained in the very fiber of your being "Don't do this thing! Do this other thing instead!" And when you finally down the boss and see 8 achievements hit the chat, oh man, it's euphoric.

I wouldn't have been able to stand the process if I didn't love each of my static members so much. Those wipes aren't something I view with frustration, but as some of my most hilarious stories. I know I am very fortunate in this regard. Now that Coil is fun to me and the lockout has been removed from SCoB, I'd like others to be able to experience it as well. I jump into T5-T9 learning parties quite a bit, but they remind me of how I felt with my first Coil group. Players don't quite trust each other, they don't talk about what went wrong in the previous attempts, and there is always that one flake who has to leave after 30 minutes when it took an hour to bring the group together. When you are dying over and over with people you don't like, making inches of progress if even that, patience wears thin very fast. And when that atmosphere becomes the face of raiding for someone with no static, the whole idea of raiding is just more trouble than it's worth.

I ran T7 last night as a bard for the first time and volunteered for Renaud duty. I was horrible. I missed hiding for a few shrieks and voiced about 6 people, clipped the healers with Circle of Flames, and at one point Shadowbind wore off and I had a brief moment of panic when I saw the Renaud barreling towards me before I remembered that it hits for 600 damage now instead of 14k. We had no right to win that fight had it been in its pre-nerf state, but it was completely doable now. More importantly, it was fun.

That is what raiding is to me. Wiping with friends and having fun. The nerfs did their job, IMO. But the "finding 7 others who will support you instead of rage" part will always be hard. Player skill and knowledge of mechanics can always be taught, but a teammate's attitude is nigh impossible to change. Post-2.5 I really hope SE looks into adding smaller raids, maybe 4 or 5-mans, if only to ease the process of finding good people to play with.

(Oops, that got more rambly than I meant, apologies. And people above me have pretty much said what I wanted to say, but in far fewer words...)

Warren Castille · **11-19-2014, 12:46 PM**

(11-19-2014, 12:40 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Although I find it kind of hilarious that you say "Youtube it" when it comes to the content - Youtubing the content doesn't give you the sweet looking gear and the desire to look awesome should never be underestimated.

That's the rub, though. If you want the gear you need to earn it. I don't raid because my schedule and lifestyle no longer match the demands that progression asks. I just accept that I'm not going to get X Y Z thing until it gets nerfed. I'm okay with this, because that's how games work.

Kellach Woods · **11-19-2014, 12:52 PM**

(11-19-2014, 12:46 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: That's the rub, though. If you want the gear you need to earn it. I don't raid because my schedule and lifestyle no longer match the demands that progression asks. I just accept that I'm not going to get X Y Z thing until it gets nerfed. I'm okay with this, because that's how games work.

I've no problems with them nerfing it later down the line for those of us who can't commit.

I've a large chip on my shoulder for those whining that they did for whatever reason.

Sounsyy · **11-19-2014, 12:53 PM**

(11-19-2014, 12:34 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: I find the social aspect of raiding the crumpets of bahamoot far more of a challenge than any mechanics. Mechanics can be overcome - raiding mentality, not so much.

I mean... It's just like RP in my mind. If you don't like the mentality of the people you're RPing with, you find new people to RP with. Plenty of fish in the sea. The same or similar approach should be taken when scoping out a raiding static.

Find a group you jive well with. It took me several bum groups to find a static I was pleased with. Though our progression has been kinda marred by having to replace a healer almost every month, (seriously we've been through like 5 healers) I couldn't ask for a better attitude towards content. So such groups are out there.

I think what sets raiding slightly apart and what builds that "elitist" attitude, that so many consider a curse word, is that this end game content does require a certain amount of focus and strategy. And let's face it, some people lack the focus to give 110% to a single Turn for 2-3 hours 2-3 nights a week. And that's not to be negative to those who can't or don't have the desire to do so, but at the same time it isn't conducive to mastering content, especially new content or content at gear level.

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RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes