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Enteris · **12-04-2014, 01:27 PM**

My apologies if such a discussion already exists within these forums somewhere, but this has been something plaguing my mind and I'm curious to see people's thoughts. Now, before we get into this, please note that it is my intention to hold a discussion, not start a flame or pissing war. As such, please keep posts constructive and on point, rather than diving into personal attacks.

Surfing through these forums lately, a lot of posts have come up regarding different issues within the game world. Dragoon's jumping, contraceptives, healing, strength of a lalafell and a number of other things. Within these threads, a common answer continues to pop up: aether.

Now, I understand aether is like the life stream, it's naturally in (pretty much) everyone and everything. It is a source of power for many of our character's abilities and attributes.

... but when is enough, enough?

Often times, when discussing the issues mentioned above, the answer "because aether" is often brought up. This, to me, often seems like a cop out and is liken to saying "because magic." Along with this argument, a quick accompaniment of "the lore doesn't explicitly say xyz, so it works!" pops up.Â

Where is the limit? When do we say that, even though the lore says nothing for or against the topic, aether really isn't a good explanation? If Bob McBobberson says that he's capable of spinning indefinately through the air in a kicking fashion (Ryu from street fighter) through the use of his aether do we have to accept that since, to my knowledge, there's nothing in lore stating that he can't? And if so, since there's nothing in lore stating I can't, can I then turn around and say my character is capable of cloning himself through the use of aether and instantaneously tranfering his entire being to a clone the instant he dies? Lore doesn't say I can't... so maybe I can?

This is the problem we run into. Often times I see people argue "because aether" to explain a reason their character is capable of doing something, but aren't willing to put a limit on it. Or they're not willing to accept another person's "because aether" for their own character. Or, often times, the whole realism vs. fantasy (because aether) argument gets thrown around.

Where's the line? How much aether does it take to do such things? How much aether is a person capable of holding/controlling/storing? Does it differ between the races?Â

Where do we draw the line between "because aether" and realism?

Berrod Armstrong · **12-04-2014, 01:30 PM**

(12-04-2014, 01:27 PM)Enteris Wrote: My apologies if such a discussion already exists within these forums somewhere, but this has been something plaguing my mind and I'm curious to see people's thoughts. Now, before we get into this, please note that it is my intention to hold a discussion, not start a flame or pissing war. As such, please keep posts constructive and on point, rather than diving into personal attacks.

Surfing through these forums lately, a lot of posts have come up regarding different issues within the game world. Dragoon's jumping, contraceptives, healing, strength of a lalafell and a number of other things. Within these threads, a common answer continues to pop up: aether.

Now, I understand aether is like the life stream, it's naturally in (pretty much) everyone and everything. It is a source of power for many of our character's abilities and attributes.

... but when is enough, enough?

Often times, when discussing the issues mentioned above, the answer "because aether" is often brought up. This, to me, often seems like a cop out and is liken to saying "because magic." Along with this argument, a quick accompaniment of "the lore doesn't explicitly say xyz, so it works!" pops up.Â

Where is the limit? When do we say that, even though the lore says nothing for or against the topic, aether really isn't a good explanation? If Bob McBobberson says that he's capable of spinning indefinately through the air in a kicking fashion (Ryu from street fighter) through the use of his aether do we have to accept that since, to my knowledge, there's nothing in lore stating that he can't? And if so, since there's nothing in lore stating I can't, can I then turn around and say my character is capable of cloning himself through the use of aether and instantaneously tranfering his entire being to a clone the instant he dies? Lore doesn't say I can't... so maybe I can?

This is the problem we run into. Often times I see people argue "because aether" to explain a reason their character is capable of doing something, but aren't willing to put a limit on it. Or they're not willing to accept another person's "because aether" for their own character. Or, often times, the whole realism vs. fantasy (because aether) argument gets thrown around.

Where's the line? How much aether does it take to do such things? How much aether is a person capable of holding/controlling/storing? Does it differ between the races?Â

Where do we draw the line between "because aether" and realism?

Wherever we wish to, based on the purpose of our narrative.

Kage · **12-04-2014, 01:36 PM**

What Berrod said.

You limit or expand upon it based upon whatever requirements or necessities there are for your narrative. This does not mean everyone will agree on what betters your narrative which is why OOC communication will come to play. What does one player belief? What do others? if there's disagreements, what can be compromised to still do the narrative justice?

Zyrusticae · **12-04-2014, 01:41 PM**

I personally draw the line at what is actually represented in the game in some form or fashion.

For example, all class and job abilities are fair game. Some less so than others (Dragonfire Dive, Holy, and Flare being the prime examples) but generally speaking, if a PC can do it in the game, it's fair to say a player can do it in their RP.

Cloning oneself would require a far more detailed explanation because the only representation of cloning in the game makes use of high (Allagan) technology, hence it is a different matter entirely.

Similarly, a player being able to fly at-will is simply not something that is done in-universe in any case, so I would also consider that a non-starter.

I personally use aether as an explanation for all the outrageous things that actually happen in the game in combat and such, rather than a justification for things that I make up on the spot. That being said, I do also like to imagine and speculate about what other things aether could be used for, but that's more of an imaginative and/or intellectual exercise than anything else.

Warren Castille · **12-04-2014, 01:43 PM**

The limit is where we draw it. Since "we" consists of a huge tenet of different people with different philosophies with different opinions, there's no clear answer. If a group of people are roleplaying a martial arts tournament and someone wants to homage Ryu and kick someone with the Hurricane Kick, that's par for the course and not entirely impossible given how flexible the lore can be. If that person then walks into the middle of the Quicksand and attempts to do that, stirring up trouble...

Well, that'd go over as well as we all think it would.

There's nothing wrong with clever use of the loose lore. Everyone's going to have differing opinions on how things work if they aren't explained; Hell, that's the basis for real-world science and physics isn't it? The difference is we can't experiment to find out, so we're stuck arguing in circles about what can or can't be done.

I'm definitely going to tackle your clone-memory thing though, in a relatively-reasonable way.

Voidsent return to the void with their memories intact. Voidsent can possess people. Possessed people should in theory lend their knowledge and memories to the voidsent possessing someone. Fantasia can be used (maybe, depends on who you ask) to render someone's appearance differently.

I present to you the story of a voidsent who possessed someone, let's say someone like Otto Vann. Otto's world is made up of drugs, women, and finery. That sure as hell beats the Void! Demon Otto uses his considerable wealth to hire a body double and acquires enough Fantasia to make the transformation utterly complete. Then Demon Otto suddenly dies in a Syndicate plot to usurp his power.

Voidsent returns to the nether. Eventually he claws his way back into the real world. Otto's double has been living Otto's life, since the real deal was dead, and went along with the charade. Demon then possesses new Otto and reclaims his vessel, sort of.

How's that?

Gegenji · **12-04-2014, 01:49 PM**

I tend to try to limit my usage of "aether" as an explanation to situations that involve what aether is presented to be used for - magic and magical effects. Black Magic, White Magic, Arcanima, Summoning... all of that is easily pointed to as using aether.

In the MNK story quest, unlocked chakras are also tentatively linked to aether through the quest-giver. So, a lot of the superhuman aspects of MNKs I can explain away as tapping into one's one aether. Inner Beast could possibly fall under this. By extension, you could also consider any great feats of strength to either training or using one's natural aetheric resources (possibly one allowing you to do the other!)

What I try to avoid doing is using aether as the stopgap reasoning for things in place of a more thought out solution. If it can be reasonably explained with aether, that's fine. Using aether as the equivalent of a shrug, though, not so much.

Verad · **12-04-2014, 02:25 PM**

(12-04-2014, 01:27 PM)Enteris Wrote: Where do we draw the line between "because aether" and realism?

You write the words "Aether" and "Realism" next to each other.

You then draw one circle around them.

That is the line.

Nebbs · **12-04-2014, 02:37 PM**

First..

[youtube]e_DqV1xdf-Y[/youtube]

Now with that out of the way.

Ask not how much power, or even how it works. Instead ask what you do with it.

We each are responsible for playing in a cooperative RP setting and all want something from this. So explain what you do and make the effects plausible and able to progress the RP, creating depth, colour and opportunity for others to RP with.

Erik Mynhier · **12-04-2014, 02:37 PM**

"Aether" is a deus ex machina created by the lore and storytellers of the FFXIV development team in an attempt to simplify physics in a game where a wound heals with light and little people can summon a comet as a LB. Since it is such it became the basic "realism" of the game for RPers as that is the established reality of the game. Its not that a RPer is lazy I think when they say "because... aether". Its just the only real flushed out tool in this game as laws of physics go. So don't blame the RPer if they say it, at least they aren't saying "because.... Echo".

Guy Tower · **12-04-2014, 04:38 PM**

I won't discover America by saying that you should do whatever you like, as long as you have other people on your mind. Doesn't matter, Aether or anything else - when RP-ing, one needs to always think "Will that be fun not only for me, but for people around me as well?". Perso-anally, I am IC'ly careful around people I haven't befriended, carefully managing my character's ultra powahs so that nobody will cringe.

So, yeah, long story short; to me, enough is when it messes with people's fun.

Tonberry

Jazz Egi · **12-04-2014, 09:42 PM**

You have to consider as well the respective setting being played. This is Eorzea. Compared to the Garleans we are backwater ignorami with minimal understanding of the sciences. What if people blaming everything on aether is just a lack of immediate knowledge of biology, chemistry and even magic?

Dragooon jumping? That probably is aether. Its a superhuman feat. Contraception? Almost certainly a wonder of chemistry in a time of alchemy. Furthermore, the mere existence of aether means physics are different here. Not that Eorzeans can grasp advanced physics either!

Don't see it as lazy writing, see it as wistful, nostalgic ignorance to natural processes. Like a body having humours or a flat world or believing in posessing demons instead of mental illness.

Yhen Yizeh · **12-04-2014, 09:44 PM**

Roleplay is VERY serious. Please take it seriously.

Atoli · **12-05-2014, 02:01 AM**

(12-04-2014, 09:42 PM)Jazz Egi Wrote: You have to consider as well the respective setting being played. Â This is Eorzea. Â Compared to the Garleans we are backwater ignorami with minimal understanding of the sciences. Â What if people blaming everything on aether is just a lack of immediate knowledge of biology, chemistry and even magic? Â

Dragooon jumping? Â That probably is aether. Â Its a superhuman feat. Â Contraception? Â Almost certainly a wonder of chemistry in a time of alchemy. Â Furthermore, the mere existence of aether means physics are different here. Â Not that Eorzeans can grasp advanced physics either!

Don't see it as lazy writing, see it as wistful, nostalgic ignorance to natural processes. Â Like a body having humours or a flat world or believing in posessing demons instead of mental illness.

Yep, this is much how I feel about Aether as a whole, from what I've been reading!

Personally, I try and stick to realism as much as possible, because I not only find it to be occasionally an interesting challenge, but also something that can lead to danger or intrigue in roleplay. Walking off every battle due to abnormal regeneration rates would leave me feeling like I were yearning for consequences. Likewise, if someone doesn't care for my perspective, I can respect it, I simply will do as I find most fulfilling in roleplay. :D

I'd only ever use Aether as an absolute last resort, personally, but I similarly imagine class abilities to be fully accessible by players as it is in game. (There's a lot of grey areas, given, but I suppose I rather trust those I roleplay with to make a fair call on when to use or how to explain such!)

ArmachiA · **12-05-2014, 06:04 AM**

Aether is literally everything, therefore I don't really have a problem with people handwaving something as "Oh, Aether."

Super overpowered Super Saiyan Aether Vampires... well that's a different story.

Artigan · **12-05-2014, 07:28 AM**

Bruh, why are you trying to explain the "Force" in some pseudo scientific fashion?

Star Wars never did that, wait, fuck.

:throws up hands and walks out:

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

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Aether: When is enough, enough?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes