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Ashren Dotharl · **12-12-2014, 11:16 PM**

(12-12-2014, 10:16 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(12-12-2014, 09:05 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: The mindset that people should be giving away what they spent a ton of gil on just because we're all in the same community is a poisonous one,

I don't really see how it's "giving away" when the person leaving the house already intends to leave it and the person buying the house has to buy it from the game anyway (not you).

It is giving it away though, because whether they intend to move out and go elsewhere or not, until they do it is still their plot.

Aya · **12-12-2014, 11:24 PM**

What you're really selling is timing.You're saying, if you pay me the right amount of gil, I will relinquish this plot at a time of your chosing. Â That really isn't the same as selling physical property or a building upon that property. I'm not really sure how I feel about that, Â but I guess these sorts of things tend to develop commerce naturally in mmos since there is demand for it Smile

Kage · **12-12-2014, 11:25 PM**

It's not the same thing because housing mechanics but... if I buy a new car, I'm not going to just give away my old car... Not when I've only had it for a few months/a year.

Ashren Dotharl · **12-12-2014, 11:28 PM**

(12-12-2014, 11:24 PM)Aya Wrote: What you're really selling is timing.You're saying, if you pay me the right amount of gil, I will relinquish this plot at a time of your chosing. Â That really isn't the same as selling physical property or a building upon that property. I'm not really sure how I feel about that, Â but I guess these sorts of things tend to develop commerce naturally in mmos since there is demand for it

I guess you could consider it a reservation fee perhaps?

Aya · **12-12-2014, 11:32 PM**

Yeah, the car example is really just entirely unrelated to "property" commerce in FF. You would have to go through so much work to make a hypothetical that actually made them comparable that it would be silly I think.

Since what you're actually selling is a permit allowing someone to own a car, but they still have to buy the car themselves (yours having been scrapped when you relinquish the permit). Â Except that you're not actually exchanging the permit, since that has to go through the DMV. Â So what you're doing is agreeing on the time you will take your permit down to the DMV to return it to them (in exchange for nothing), and doing so in exchange for cash. Â This doesn't sound much like selling your used car anymore does it?

Aya · **12-12-2014, 11:35 PM**

(12-12-2014, 11:28 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(12-12-2014, 11:24 PM)Aya Wrote: What you're really selling is timing.You're saying, if you pay me the right amount of gil, I will relinquish this plot at a time of your chosing. Â That really isn't the same as selling physical property or a building upon that property. I'm not really sure how I feel about that, Â but I guess these sorts of things tend to develop commerce naturally in mmos since there is demand for it
I guess you could consider it a reservation fee perhaps?

I don't know what it is beyond being a service of artficially limited supply but high demand that therefore is worth money to people Smile

Marisa · **12-12-2014, 11:44 PM**

This could all be solved if you could just sell plots to other players. You know, like how housing works in real life.

Kage · **12-13-2014, 12:01 AM**

As I said it's an issue with the system not the sellers. (Not to mention the fact that the onus is on the sellers to go and make sure the title is changed and whatnot otherwise free accidents for the buyer~)

The fact is that FFXIV's system does not allow you to recuperate any of your lost costs if you decide you want a new house, a bigger house, or do not want one at all. If I was fortunate enough to own a plot of land and the house built on it I sure as hell would make someone buy both the house -and- the plot of land. This is a real life example. I'm not going to just give away a plot of land.

FFXIV is unfortunately harsh on the buyer in cases of player to player transactions.
You have several cases and they're all shorting the buyer just a little bit.
A) You have an FC owned plot. In order to move on up you have to demolish and relinquish the plot. You spent most likely around 5mil gil on the land but you can't just easily make that up so you sell it. Otherwise it's very possible you can't get the other plot you really want in time. So you relinquish it but the buyer will have to pay for the plot, the permit, and you.

B) You have an FC owned plot and are willing to give up the FC. Easy, you transfer and the least amount of gil is exchanged -but- the seller has to keep the FC name. Not too bad.

C) You own a personal plot. You've spent that amount of money but in order to let go of it or sell it you -need- to relinquish the plot. The house must be destroyed essentially. You have no other options but you can't just let go of 4+mil gil that easily. So unfortunately, the seller must both buy the plot, the permit and pay you for it.

It's not peoples' fault. It's the way the game -is-.

C'kayah Polaali · **12-13-2014, 12:21 AM**

My apologies for causing rancor. Please go back to your regular discussions.

V'aleera · **12-13-2014, 01:11 AM**

(12-12-2014, 07:47 PM)C Wrote:
(12-12-2014, 07:39 PM)Yhen Yizeh Wrote: It's hardly "predatory" or "trollish" as you put it. It's prioritizing people the right to get this thing that's in demand.Â

Supply and demand, my dear.Â

If you're going to be passive-aggressive about me selling my plot, go ahead and buy the other small plot!

Oh wait.

Actually, I was calling the Eve community (And I've played Eve off and on for a decade, so I do know about it) predatory and trolling. I very specifically said I wasn't singling you out. In fact, I took pains to call out that it's been going on long enough that your sale of your plot was an accepted thing.

If we want to be the sort of community that feels that this is acceptable, then that's our choice. And we, as a community, will still have a long ways to go before I'll draw serious parallels with the Eve community.

Frankly, I don't think you need to apologize or skirt the issue. This kind of economic play within this kind of setting and context is by definition predatory. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion. Some people think the playing field should be fair, some think advantages exist to be exploited. Most people are somewhere in the middle.

But if someone is getting upset at simply having their activity appropriately labeled, that's a personal issue.

As far as the subject at hand, there doesn't seem like much too be done without dev interference, other than simply hoping the market reaches an equilibrium that's more fair to buyers than it presently is.

Blue · **12-13-2014, 01:57 AM**

The most reasonable solution is: do not buy the plot from them and just wait for them to leave. If they're upgrading their house they'll HAVE to sooner or later.

Kage · **12-13-2014, 02:45 AM**

(12-13-2014, 12:21 AM)C Wrote: Does that mean that when that buyer turns around and sells it, the next buyer should be expected to pay them 8 mil, plus paying SE 4 for the plot?

It's not the way the game is, Kage. The game just says "the relinquisher doesn't get a refund, the new owner pays the housing broker for the plot". Selling the time of relinquishment is entirely a player construct. Blaming the game is a cop out.

Why would someone ever need to pay them 8 mil plus SE for the plot? A person ever needs to get the cost of the plot and that's it. If the buyer is retarded enough to spend over 2x what the plot is worth, that's on the buyer. If someone wants something out of what they paid for, they're allowed to. Simple as that. They are not being greedy. It's not just a thing. It's the way it is if people want to recuperate it. If the game allowed people to sell houses directly, sure as hell would be cheaper. But -the game- does not allow it.

Kellach Woods · **12-13-2014, 03:16 AM**

Player Housing.

where the only way to have fun is not to play.

Aya · **12-13-2014, 05:43 AM**

(12-13-2014, 03:16 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Player Housing.

where the only way to have fun is not to play.

Or just to play in other people's houses! Â That's my favorite way ^_^

Parvacake · **12-13-2014, 05:59 AM**

I'll add in my two cents as well, since this applies somewhat to my own FC and our position about a month ago when we got our medium.

For us (DOVE) personally it was about getting back some of the costs. As well as helping some of our members get their personal rooms by having gil available to reimburse since many people are RPers first and foremost and weren't apt at playing the market and making enough for furniture costs AND room fee.Â

Plus, the plot we wanted was in high demand and some others were looking to get it since it was in a popular RP ward in the LB. So that few extra million on top of what we had would help us get the house and all that we needed faster. In the end, we sold it to a raid like FC who could afford the extra few million on top of SE, and they were doing dances in the front yard like tribal children. Everyone was happy.

But I have to agree with Kage: Because the game doesn't allow a friendlier system to sell houses directly and its all on SE, we make do with what we have. If I was able to sell the house directly to someone, I'd have made it cheaper then what SE did.

However, it's just not a thing. At least not now anyways. I don't look down on anyone for doing it, and those who can afford to do it will do it and those who can afford to pay will pay. That's ultimately on them. I can see why it's disheartening, but I personally plan to work with what the game and SE gives me and make the most out of it for myself and especially for my FC members.

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So this is a thing now?

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