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Kellach Woods · **12-23-2014, 01:45 AM**

(12-23-2014, 01:31 AM)Faye Wrote: Gonna have to agree with this. As a woman myself, I don't understand why everyone is so upset about the female Au Ra being more pretty/small/human looking. Whether a character is bad ass is based on their portrayal and actions, not physical appearance. In a game where we have Highlanders and Roegadyn, I don't really feel slighted in terms of big, bad ass, muscled Amazonian women.

People seem to think it's misogynistic to make female characters dainty, petite and overall feminine. I disagree. Rather, I find it misogynistic to imply that if a woman is dainty, petite, and overall feminine, that she must be weak, or less interesting, or what have you.

Also gonna throw in... if anyone thinks the male Au Ra aren't sexualized eye candy... you are oh so very, very wrong (or maybe just turned off by a little scales and horns).

I just want it to look like they actually are of the same race.

I mean, we've got roe/lala height difference between the two. If it's the biggest dude with the smallest gal, then fine pretty much 80% of my complaints are null and void because even if the horns aren't "big enough" on the gals (and even then I'd wager horn slider can make those suckers real big) that's less of a stretch than, well, the height difference to me.

All the races except Lala are eyecandy to someone.

Iex · **12-23-2014, 01:46 AM**

Before you attempt to present a series of quotes to try to prove that a lot of folks dislike the race and as a 'movement' to change something consider the following:

Lot of peopleÂ dislike howÂ Miqo'te look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Elezen look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Roegadyn look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Midlanders look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Highlanders look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Lalafell look.

Also, on those same commentary from the sites you linkedÂ I can find as many positive reactions to the race as well... so it shows that the race has both positive and negative reactions... kind ofÂ like how itÂ is for every race?

(Edit: Below this is directed toward the topic not just one person)

There are reasons there are more than one race, becauseÂ a raceÂ does not appeal to everyone. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and on the internet folks are far from scared to share it, so here is mine:

If game developers and game artists listened to everything fans wanted from the game, they would never be able to release it. I am fairly certain the artists, who designed the new race, designed it how the producer and the artists wanted it to look, andÂ what would fit into their world. I am fairly certain the put a lot of effort into making what they imagined fit into the game. I am fairly certain they wanted an certainÂ aesthetic and they would not release it unless they were happy with it. FFXIV 1.0 failed on account of several factors some of whichÂ were artistic (I recall copy pasted zones and textures)*, and FFXIV is succeeding greatly in 2.0. I do not think they will halfÂ do anything for laziness.

If we are absolutely honest, nothing in FFXIV is created forÂ the individual. It is created for theÂ community of everyone, as well as to fulfill the desire of those developing it. That being said SE did not personallyÂ 'let down' fans by how they designed the new race because they did not promise anything, some of the fans just did not like what they produced. I believe if that was not the caseÂ in an MMO... something would be seriously wrong because people's definition of beauty and even of beastliness are very varied, nothing will be perfect with everything.

In my opinion the complaints about the how the female looks compared to the male are unfounded except for height and the horns. My previous posts explained the dimorphic nature of all the races in all the major aspects. Not everyone agreed with me. However, are you wrong in your opinion? I guess an opinion on a silly thing like thisÂ really cannot be wrong. The bigger issue I have seen is folks seriously getting heated about how the new race appears to presented. It is like being angry that theÂ /free/ gift you are getting isn't the gift you made yourself believe you are getting.Â

The fact of the matter is, theÂ Au Ra are as they are, designed how they are by the artists, developers, and producer. An individual may not like the race and are free to express why they don't; however, the heated anger about how SE was lazy and made a mistake, seems to me out of line. If we are realistic, a call for them to 'fix it' will fall on deaf ears because if they fix it for some people it will be broken for others, as such they can only do what the artists who designed them wanted.

People expected something they were never promised and if you do that you end up feeling as though you were personally attacked by a company that doesn't even know your name. Your idea of what it should be is under attack by what realityÂ it is. You may not like the reality, but it is honestly not SE's fault.

You may not like how it looks, because you think the women should have more 'beast features' though they share the same as the males. However, instead of just trying to compare the race to what you expected, try to find something you do like about them and what you don't like about them rather than what they 'should' be.

I don't think anyone is trying here is trying to tell other folks they can't have an opinion, or denying that some people dislike it. I believe the existence of this thread actually proves some people don't like them and others do. Attempting to prove someone's opinion of if a race would look better as A rather than B, is rather absurd. It is like telling someone who doesn't like mushrooms they are simply incorrect about their tastes. No one made a mistake in how the designed the races, folks just either like them or not.

We are all slaves to the aesthetics of the game developers so all we can do is have opinionsÂ on thatÂ aestheticÂ and work with what weÂ are given, and just by looking around theÂ Quicksand... people are really good at that.Â Â

My apologies if I presented myself in a way that seems like I am sayingÂ what you dislike or likeÂ about the realityÂ is wrong.

Ashren Dotharl · **12-23-2014, 01:49 AM**

(12-23-2014, 01:45 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-23-2014, 01:31 AM)Faye Wrote: Gonna have to agree with this. As a woman myself, I don't understand why everyone is so upset about the female Au Ra being more pretty/small/human looking. Whether a character is bad ass is based on their portrayal and actions, not physical appearance. In a game where we have Highlanders and Roegadyn, I don't really feel slighted in terms of big, bad ass, muscled Amazonian women.

People seem to think it's misogynistic to make female characters dainty, petite and overall feminine. I disagree. Rather, I find it misogynistic to imply that if a woman is dainty, petite, and overall feminine, that she must be weak, or less interesting, or what have you.

Also gonna throw in... if anyone thinks the male Au Ra aren't sexualized eye candy... you are oh so very, very wrong (or maybe just turned off by a little scales and horns).

I just want it to look like they actually are of the same race.

I mean, we've got roe/lala height difference between the two.

I think this is a massive, massiveÂ over exaggeration. Is there a height difference? Yes, no one can deny that. But the difference isn't so extreme that they look completely different. I think people are just trying to make big ol' mountains out of tiny little mole hills here.

Faye · **12-23-2014, 01:49 AM**

(12-23-2014, 01:45 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-23-2014, 01:31 AM)Faye Wrote: Gonna have to agree with this. As a woman myself, I don't understand why everyone is so upset about the female Au Ra being more pretty/small/human looking. Whether a character is bad ass is based on their portrayal and actions, not physical appearance. In a game where we have Highlanders and Roegadyn, I don't really feel slighted in terms of big, bad ass, muscled Amazonian women.

People seem to think it's misogynistic to make female characters dainty, petite and overall feminine. I disagree. Rather, I find it misogynistic to imply that if a woman is dainty, petite, and overall feminine, that she must be weak, or less interesting, or what have you.

Also gonna throw in... if anyone thinks the male Au Ra aren't sexualized eye candy... you are oh so very, very wrong (or maybe just turned off by a little scales and horns).

I just want it to look like they actually are of the same race.

I mean, we've got roe/lala height difference between the two. If it's the biggest dude with the smallest gal, then fine pretty much 80% of my complaints are null and void because even if the horns aren't "big enough" on the gals (and even then I'd wager horn slider can make those suckers real big) that's less of a stretch than, well, the height difference to me.

All the races except Lala are eyecandy to someone.

I like the drastic difference! It makes it interesting to me. For all the other races (aside from Lalafells who barely have a difference...), males and females look the same aside from the expected differences (females being slightly smaller, having breasts and obviously more feminine features). It's interesting to finally see a race where the only difference isn't a few inches in height and some curves. And yeah, like Ashren said, I don't think the height difference is quite that extreme.

Zyrusticae · **12-23-2014, 01:55 AM**

Let me clarify.

The problem is that there is a larger industry trend to relegate female characters to secondary or tertiary roles and to play them up for sex appeal above anything else. In isolation this isn't really a big problem, but in aggregate it becomes very obvious and very annoying for anyone who wants to see female characters obtain more prominent roles and/or obtain anywhere NEAR the build variety that male characters are allowed to have by dint of being the 'default'.

I would argue that the male and the female versions of Au Ra should be either different races entirely or at least different sub-races (the latter would actually be really cool because the differences between sub-races as they stand are very minimal) with roughly equivalent male and female versions instead of this huuuge divide. Of course this would be more work - twice as much, even - so it's not happening, but if such a thing did occur it would go a long way towards satisfying many of the detractors.

(12-23-2014, 01:37 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: FFXIV reportedly has more than 2 million subscribers world wide, and your best argument to show to me that there is more than just a vocal minority of people who don't like them is to show me a few posts that have less than 0.001% of the total user base showing their dislike?

First of all, we only know registered users, not active subscribers. Secondly, yes. As long as the sample size is large enough we can extrapolate the general reception from there. Combine my above post with all the feedback from all the rest of the sites on the Internet and that gives us a pretty good idea, though obviously we can assume that positive feedback is going to be underrepresented due to the nature of the Internet.

Mind you, I have no idea how much negative feedback a more bestial version of the race would have garnered. And neither do you. It's all speculation at this point. All we have is what's in front of us, and what's in front of us is not exactly the prettiest picture.

Kellach Woods · **12-23-2014, 01:56 AM**

(12-23-2014, 01:49 AM)Faye Wrote: I like the drastic difference! It makes it interesting to me. For all the other races (aside from Lalafells who barely have a difference...), males and females look the same aside from the expected differences (females being slightly smaller, having breasts and obviously more feminine features). It's interesting to finally see a race where the only difference isn't a few inches in height and some curves. And yeah, like Ashren said, I don't think the height difference is quite that extreme.

Still think they could have marked that difference... differently than just a massive size difference. To tread old ground I'd say that's almost lazy thought Tongue

It's pretty much a more extreme interpretation of that very same difference you note : Females are different because they're smaller, have feminine features and breasts. The difference is just more noticed because of the height difference... but it's the same damn thing in the end!

Different horn styles, though not necessarily in size, would also have been a good idea.

I am also down with a female muscle slider. I mean, they did it for Hyurs, why not the Au Ra?

Ashren Dotharl · **12-23-2014, 02:06 AM**

(12-23-2014, 01:55 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: As long as the sample size is large enough we can extrapolate the general reception from there.

Even if a few hundred people all voiced their dislike for the race, that is still barely a fraction of the total number of people who either like the race and haven't spoken up, like the race and have spoken up, or just don't give a shit enough to comment one way or the other.

Zyrusticae · **12-23-2014, 02:06 AM**

(12-23-2014, 01:46 AM)Iex Wrote: Before you attempt to present a series of quotes to try to prove that a lot of folks dislike the race and as a 'movement' to change something consider the following:

Lot of peopleÂ dislike howÂ Miqo'te look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Elezen look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Roegadyn look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Midlanders look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Highlanders look.
Lot of peopleÂ dislike how Lalafell look.

Also, on those same commentary from the sites you linkedÂ I can find as many positive reactions to the race as well... so it shows that the race has both positive and negative reactions... kind ofÂ like how itÂ is for every race?

The problem here is that the race is... more of the same.

I mean, look, if the next race for 4.0 ends up being more of the same I can guarantee you the negative feedback will be even more concentrated than it is for the Au Ra. Lots of players are very invested into this game yet find themselves feeling underserved by the available options, so naturally they're hoping for something different. The longer they have to wait, the more they keep serving the same niche over and over again, the greater the volume of negative feedback they will receive. It's cumulative.

Certainly, every race has its detractors, but look at how much of the feedback is along the lines of "oh it's a Hyur/Elezen with some scale patches and horns, how staid!" That's something you only get when you're retreading old ground, and boy howdy are they doing that now. We already have 5 races, 10 subraces, of slight variations on humanity, so please forgive me and the rest of the detractors if we're getting gradually more irritated over Square Enix's inability to break out of that very same overused mold.

Ashren Dotharl · **12-23-2014, 02:16 AM**

I think honestly at this point everyone in here is just arguing in a bloody circle, so the only thing I have left to say on the matter before I stop checking this thread is simply this:Â

A.) If you don't like the new race, then you are completely unaffected by the addition of it because (presumably) you are happy with what you have and will just stick with it.

B.) For those of us whoÂ do like the new race, we are overjoyed because for some of us it offers an option we will enjoy much more than the currently available options, and for others it offers a new opportunity to play something else not previously available.Â

C.) If you are unhappy with all available options already existing, and also don't like the current race... why the hell are you playing this game?

In short, if you are fine with you have but don't like the Au Ra, then just don't play them. If you are excited for the Au Ra, then sweet I look forward to joining all my new lizard brothers and sisters in 3.0! If you don't like anything, new or old, maybe it's time to find a new game?

Faye · **12-23-2014, 02:18 AM**

(12-23-2014, 01:56 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Still think they could have marked that difference... differently than just a massive size difference. To tread old ground I'd say that's almost lazy thought

It's pretty much a more extreme interpretation of that very same difference you note : Females are different because they're smaller, have feminine features and breasts. The difference is just more noticed because of the height difference... but it's the same damn thing in the end!

I'd disagree! The males and females of the same races generally have the same motif: Highlanders are buff looking, Lalafell are cute, Midlanders are average blank slates, Elezen are lanky and elegant, Miqo'te are sporty and a little feral looking, Roegadyn are big with very square features... it doesn't vary any by gender. Male and female Au Ra, however, give off very different vibes. The men are fierce and ferocious and gruff looking, sharp and narrow features. The women are dainty and petite and elegant and doll-like, little and round features. I really enjoy the contrast. I like the contrast of the female Au Ra in themselves even--dragon girls with scales and bestial horns... and super girlish features.

Iex · **12-23-2014, 02:25 AM**

(12-23-2014, 02:06 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(12-23-2014, 01:46 AM)Iex Wrote: Something I said.
The problem here is that the race is... more of the same.

I mean, look, if the next race for 4.0 ends up being more of the same I can guarantee you the negative feedback will be even more concentrated than it is for the Au Ra. Lots of players are very invested into this game yet find themselves feeling underserved by the available options, so naturally they're hoping for something different. The longer they have to wait, the more they keep serving the same niche over and over again, the greater the volume of negative feedback they will receive. It's cumulative.

Certainly, every race has its detractors, but look at how much of the feedback is along the lines of "oh it's a Hyur/Elezen with some scale patches and horns, how staid!" That's something you only get when you're retreading old ground, and boy howdy are they doing that now. We already have 5 races, 10 subraces, of slight variations on humanity, so please forgive me and the rest of the detractors if we're getting gradually more irritated over Square Enix's inability to break out of that very same overused mold.

Are you not happy with the races you have?

By the August 2014 official census of the races. Hyur (aka human) consist of around 34% and Miqo'te 33% The less human looking they got the smaller population played it, right down Roegadyn at measly 5% short of Lalafell they are the least human looking, but Lalafell have the Cute small thing bump (like the female animal people of Tera being the MOST popular).

If we go by a direct numbers game.... people prefer more human looking races in FFXIV. So it would make sense they would want to make a race that appealed to the mass majority of the current players by the number games. A human with some beast like traits. So....

and http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...ensus-2014

for the numbers.

Naunet · **12-23-2014, 02:46 AM**

(12-23-2014, 01:55 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I would argue that the male and the female versions of Au Ra should be either different races entirely or at least different sub-races (the latter would actually be really cool because the differences between sub-races as they stand are very minimal) with roughly equivalent male and female versions instead of this huuuge divide.

Oh this would have been very cool.

Flickering Ember · **12-23-2014, 02:51 AM**

(12-23-2014, 12:36 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(12-22-2014, 11:40 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: The Western idea of beauty can often times be much more rugged, even for females.

People tend to be far less critical of what Male characters look like in video games because it's incredibly difficult to go wrong with them. If male characters almost all look the same, or fit into certain stereotypes or follow certain societal standards nobody really gives a shit. If the same thing happens with Female character models people lose their freaking minds over it.

Off topic, but I wanted to throw this in here: [Image: video-game-protagonists-kids-love-brown-...00x377.jpg]

As for the rest of your post, while I know SE is trying to be conscious about what each region likes gameplay wise, I don't know if we can say the same visual wise. I have no evidence either way. That is something I will have to find out with time. I figure it is easy to not change the aesthetics much though. As Berrod pointed out, fans of the game know the art style and the Au Ra conform to the art style. I'm not expecting them to act on feedback in this area.

I am not good at wording this so I'm only going to try so much. There is a big difference in how female characters are represented in not only Japanese art but also the story. I attribute these to cultural differences. A good chunk of the folks that play Final Fantasy XIV are likely to be anime fans, and thus, more attuned to the cultural differences. Because Final Fantasy XIV attracts a niche of people already into Japanese media, I think it is more likely for those people to get behind the Au Ra concept.

(12-23-2014, 01:19 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(12-23-2014, 12:51 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: This is because there is a ubiquitous trend to make the male characters capable and "badass" while the females are made to be doted on and fawned over.

Quite frankly, it's condescending and super-irritating to be relegated to that kind of role again and again and again and again, so yeah, people (women mostly) WILL lose their shit over it, because it's blatantly and unequivocally sexist.

Who's forcing you into that role other than yourself? It's about how a character acts, not how they appear that defines them in that way. Looks can be incredibly deceiving, or so the cliche goes.

Oh come on, you can't really think that this:

[Image: PHN1JnF.jpg]

...gives you the same perception of the character as...

[Image: dragon_age_inquisition_e3_trailer_0008.png]

...this. Same character, modeled differently. You can have a waifu girl who can slay bad guys in one hit or defeat men 10 times her size in an arm wrestling match. But it's not nearly as convincing as watching a muscled woman do those things.Who do you think looks more battle hardened? It's not just personality, appearance says a whole lot about a person and how that person is perceived. For example, like it or not, historically role-play characters from small races, such as a lalafell, are not taken as seriously as the taller characters.

You can have a perfectly pretty female character kick a lot of ass (Asami from Legend of Korra) but how they do their ass kicking and how convincing or intimidating that person is comes down to appearance. We can tell, by appearance alone, that Korra from the same franchise fights and behaves a lot differently from Asami.

Differences in art style change how we perceive the character. Like so:
Â [Image: elfen-lied-8.jpg]

In this comparison, we can tell that the first depiction is harsh and intimidating while the second depiction is cute and peaceful. Can you really fault someone for wanting their characters to look as badass as theyÂ portray them?

Your character's appearance: It does affect your roleplay, what other characters think of your character, and what other players think of your character.

g0ne · **12-23-2014, 03:05 AM**

Everyone, please calm down and take it easy. Relax! Deep breaths, or maybe go jump into some ice cold water, heck, go outside and roll around in the snow! Be nice and respect other people's opinions, and don't try to impose yours on them. Just be happy, and positive, and nice, and friendly, and sweet, and SMILE! (Or anything else I might have forgotten, as long as it is a good thing)

Please...?

Why is everything getting so heated...?

Gone. · **12-23-2014, 03:28 AM**

(12-23-2014, 02:51 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Oh come on, you can't really think that this:

...gives you the same perception of the character as...

...this. Same character, modeled differently. You can have a waifu girl who can slay bad guys in one hit or defeat men 10 times her size in an arm wrestling match. But it's not nearly as convincing as watching a muscled woman do those things.Who do you think looks more battle hardened? It's not just personality, appearance says a whole lot about a person and how that person is perceived. For example, like it or not, historically role-play characters from small races, such as a lalafell, are not taken as seriously as the taller characters.

You can have a perfectly pretty female character kick a lot of ass (Asami from Legend of Korra) but how they do their ass kicking and how convincing or intimidating that person is comes down to appearance. We can tell, by appearance alone, that Korra from the same franchise fights and behaves a lot differently from Asami.

Differences in art style change how we perceive the character. Like so:
Â

In this comparison, we can tell that the first depiction is harsh and intimidating while the second depiction is cute and peaceful. Can you really fault someone for wanting their characters to look as badass as theyÂ portray them?

Your character's appearance: It does affect your roleplay, what other characters think of your character, and what other players think of your character.

All I got out of this is that you care more for appearance than you do personality and actions. That's fine and all, but please don't speak for others on the subject; itt's condescending at best. The bottom line is that a character can be both feminine and tough. One need not resort to an androgynous stereotype dripping with tokenism to make the point.

(and for the record, both of those portrayals paint the picture of someone that's strong and competent, irregardless of aesthetics so *shrug*)

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Thoughts on the Au Ra?

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