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Nikolai · **10-11-2010, 12:28 PM**

Alright. Here's my two gil: in the context of "situation B", I would put in a "down payment" for half the going price of the mats, and give the buyer several prices in advance so that they know what is coming depending on the item's quality. Alternatively, if the buyer knows ahead of time that they will not be able to afford a high-quality result, the buyer can either ask the crafter to spam rapid synthesis to avoid HQs; or if the crafter has the money, the crafter may keep the HQ item and sell it later, in the meantime buying new materials (entirely with their own money now) to make the buyer a new item for the agreed NQ fee.
Either way, upon completion, the crafter then trades the buyer the finished item, who at the same time returns the down payment, along with a fee that corresponds to the quality. No surprises, and an equal risk for both the buyer and crafter, each of whom take responsibility in requesting/accepting the commission.

In nearly all cases, I prefer "situation A" (except that I would again prefer to agree on a price beforehand and hold payment until completion), but if a B-style commission comes up, that'll be my stance on it. I'll discuss it with the Anvil's members to see how they feel about it, too.

Freyar · **10-11-2010, 01:49 PM**

I personally completely disagree with the commissioned item "costing more" because of a high-quality result. If I pay you to make X and you screw it up by making it "high quality", then why the hell should I go back to you, eh? There is no extra work being done here.

Either way, we're getting distracted. People are stealing materials and investment monies, that was what this was primarily about.

Asyria · **10-11-2010, 01:53 PM**

And that's why I'm against Scammer lists.
Because it's a matter of personal opinion.

Also, I didn't "ignore" anything but most of you seem to "ignore" what I've been saying.

Chveya · **10-11-2010, 01:53 PM**

Freyar Wrote:Either way, we're getting distracted. People are stealing materials and investment monies, that was what this was primarily about.

QFT.

I think the Great Debate over "Does HQ cost more if you didn't plan to make it that way" isn't the same, at all, as people -stealing- your crap.

Nikolai · **10-11-2010, 02:00 PM**

I suppose, then, that I was merely confused as to the point of the topic. My stance is made all the same, so I'll bow out. I'll say one thing first, though; look forward to the Silver Anvil's Monthly Open Market! As it's an event exclusive to role-players, we'll be better able to monitor things and avoid scamming-- I don't expect it to be an issue though, as I trust everyone here.

/shamelessplug

Asyria · **10-11-2010, 02:06 PM**

Freyar Wrote:
Armorsmith either finishes the job, botches it, or makes an HQ item.[/list:u]

It is in fact very much on topic, since the botch or HQ seems to be considered scams.
I strongly disagree with that and am concerned as a crafter that someone would be willing to put my name on a scammer list due to different personal opinions.

However, I'll simply avoid trading anything else than gil with anyone I don't feel I can trust.
Scamming goes both ways, and so does slandering.

Chveya · **10-11-2010, 02:29 PM**

Asyria Wrote:
Freyar Wrote:
Armorsmith either finishes the job, botches it, or makes an HQ item.[/list:u]

It is in fact very much on topic, since the botch or HQ seems to be considered scams.
I strongly disagree with that and am concerned as a crafter that someone would be willing to put my name on a scammer list due to different personal opinions.

However, I'll simply avoid trading anything else than gil with anyone I don't feel I can trust.
Scamming goes both ways, and so does slandering.

A person who considers a botch to be a scam is an idiot. The ONLY exception to this is if you know, 100%, that a person should be able to make that item with one hand tied behind their back, hanging by their ankles off the Empire State Building.

With this crafting system, a botch is not a scam.

Now, since the original intent of this topic was to discuss people stealing from you and how to prevent it / what to do about it, why don't we stop insisting on nitpicking the crafting results, and focus on what to do if someone steals from you?

Nikolai · **10-11-2010, 02:33 PM**

What do you do when someone steals from you? You report it to a GM and hope action is taken. I can't think of much else that can be done.

Chveya · **10-11-2010, 02:36 PM**

Nikolai Wrote:What do you do when someone steals from you? You report it to a GM and hope action is taken. I can't think of much else that can be done.

Exactly.

Pre-trade, you follow the steps outlined way back in this post. You make sure you have everything in writing. And if it goes south, then you have verbal, written proof of what your agreement was so you can take it to the appropriate people.

Vareal · **10-11-2010, 03:25 PM**

Katara Tyme = bestest crafter EVER!!! ...

Show Content

I personally haven't had any problems with outside-the-shell crafters, as we have a crafter or two in the Linkshell. But, I will say that I've parused the shops, in Gridania and Ul'dah mostly,and it irks me when I search for 45 minutes, find something I want, buy it, then five minutes later I find the same thing for less. BAH! There needs to be some sort of search option for the bazaar's in the market wards.

Trizzip · **10-11-2010, 06:52 PM**

On the flip side, maybe we should have a list of crafters that can be trusted? That way, it has a much more positive spin on it.

Freyar · **10-11-2010, 07:13 PM**

Brin Ahlrine Wrote:On the flip side, maybe we should have a list of crafters that can be trusted? That way, it has a much more positive spin on it.

Far too easy to be abused, I'd think.

Asyria Wrote:
Freyar Wrote:
Armorsmith either finishes the job, botches it, or makes an HQ item.[/list:u]

It is in fact very much on topic, since the botch or HQ seems to be considered scams.
I strongly disagree with that and am concerned as a crafter that someone would be willing to put my name on a scammer list due to different personal opinions.

However, I'll simply avoid trading anything else than gil with anyone I don't feel I can trust.
Scamming goes both ways, and so does slandering.

While I do believe HQ price hiking is unacceptable, I included all three results as a person can potentially feel cheated in all three scenarios. You may feel slandered, Asyria, but the wording was in an attempt to address considerations with each of the three results.

Preventative work helps prevent these types of scenarios to begin with, which is better then waiting till after-the-fact.

Chveya · **10-11-2010, 08:39 PM**

Brin Ahlrine Wrote:On the flip side, maybe we should have a list of crafters that can be trusted? That way, it has a much more positive spin on it.

Actually, I don't think this is a bad idea. Think of it in terms of how you can rate an eBay seller. If Freyar has a great experience with Asyria as his crafter, he can make a post - or perhaps PM the person keeping the list up-to-date - and share that.

Likewise, if enough negative reviews were to be PM'ed about someone, they may temporarily lose their spot on the list. This would be far more fair than a blacklist, and requires more than one person who's angry about something (rightfully or just in spite) to really screw up someone's reputation.

Satrina · **10-12-2010, 05:18 PM**

Asyria Wrote:It all goes down to two situations... And I'm not sure which you're all talking about but I think you all misunderstood what I said.

Situation A: Crafter's mats. The buyer pays gil. The crafter makes the item. If the item IS better then itis WORTH more. Simple, reasonable, logical. Calling it a scam is BS. As I said above however, an honorable crafter will offer the HQ item for a higher price AND offer to make another non-HQ item at the agreed price. If they're out of mats, tough luck... Keep in mind the Crafter gains nothing if they don't make the sale due to the item becoming too expensive. And if they do make the sale, then the buuyer paid more but also GOT more.
Advice: If you want to avoid surprises, ask the crafter to not make it HQ (spamming rapid will avoid it).

Situation B: Buyer's mats. The buyer pays by providing the mats (usually +tip). The crafter makes the item.
- If the item is HQ, too bad for the crafter. He can make gil off his own stuff, but this item doesn't belong to him since the materials didn't.
- If the crafter fails, too bad for the buyer. The crafter gains nothing by failing voluntarily since the mats are spent, so calling it a scam is BS.
Advice: give the Tip once the item is completed.

It seems to me like you're disagreeing with what I said about Situation A when you have Situation B in mind.

This post is 100% fact and I agree. There's no ifs, ands or buts. Always wait to tip the crafter before they try with your mats or even theirs incase of failure.

Quote:If the synth succeeds, the Armorsmith in the case of a scam simply states he will sell it himself to whoever pays his asking price via his Bazaar. If the synth fails, the Amorsmith makes no attempts to reconcile losses (though admittedly, there is no real unwritten "norm" for the community as of yet). If the synth generates an HQ result, the Armorsmith tries to extort additional fees for the quality of the item, or sells it via his Bazaar at his asking price.

Like has been said, if they are your mats and an HQ happens and the crafter refuses to give you the item, that is in fact a ToS violation. If the item HQs and they have a NQ on their person and give you that instead, and you had no agreement before hand, well your own fault in that regard. If its the crafters mats and they HQ, that's now the crafters item and they can do what they want with it. If its the crafts mats and they fail, well you should still be tipping them because they just lost a lot of shit trying to do something for you.

I know when I repair peoples weapons sometimes I fail, and I expect to be compensated for my fail if using my own materials.

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Crafting Scammers

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes