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Kestrael · **01-28-2015, 11:14 AM**

Hi, everyone. I am new to the forum and FFXIV (as well as the game franchise). I picked up the game recently because a friend who plays requested it and the first character I made was a Miqo'te. This was in part because my friend was already playing that race and yes, I thought they were cute. I had no way of knowing that the server we were playing on was already heavily saturated. With that being said, this was on Lamia with no expectations of role play. I wasn't even aware there was a role play community but am very pleased to see otherwise.Â

I agree with Haeden in regards to assimilation. In each city there are large populations of refugees due to the Calamity, all cramming together in what amounts to shanty towns. When you walk through any of the cities you see all the races (NPCs) mingling together. Miqo'te hold various jobs and it seems to be implied that at least some have embraced city life. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that when they go home for the evening they don't slip back into traditional behavior but I feel it sets a certain precedent. The fact that the lore states they are solitary creatures yet have such a large NPC presence would lead me, as a newb, to believe that the population is slowly migrating away from some of their traditionally held beliefs and lifestyles.

I personally feel that both play types are appropriate and add an opportunity for interaction between the traditional and non-tradional characters. I have absolutely no intention of making one myself. Should I be able to get a spot on Balmung I have a Roegadyn planned.

***Alothia*** · **01-28-2015, 11:14 AM**

Oi vey. This is something that people need to stop doing. Projecting OUR cultural norms onto our characters...is not cool.

Just because you're not okay with it OOCly, doesn't mean that your character is against it. If it's a societal thing, then there needs to be an understanding that your character is probably not going to have a problem with it.

Now, if you want to create a reasonable reason for your character to struggle with it, that's one thing. But simply saying that your character isn't okay with it....that's another thing entirely.

Berrod Armstrong · **01-28-2015, 11:14 AM**

(01-27-2015, 03:42 PM)allgivenover Wrote: What I'm on about with "Hyur in cat ears and a tail" is that for the vast majority of Miqo'te RPers you could retcon their character into a Hyur and absolutely nothing would be different other than them no longer having ears and a tail. This holds true for a lot of long time veterans around here who are otherwise great roleplayers.

It's things like never emoting the expressiveness of these aforementioned ears, or the tail, failing to ever use the sensitive nose to emote picking up scents, ignoring the Keeper diurnal tendency entirely, and (although it's fine to have a non-traditional Miqo'te) outright ignoring the lore because many find it distasteful - at least have the character acknowledge that lore with an IC rejection, don't pretend it doesn't exist at all or be outright hostile to those who acknowledge Keeper promiscuity or the political correctness nightmare that is Seeker harems.

Most Miqo'te RPers are just Hyur in catboy/girl cosplay. And let's not spend any more time than we need too talking about the fetish crowd that permeates Miqo'te. I used to doubt how widespread some claimed it to be, but considering how often I run into Miqo'te who are just a vehicle for fetish, I had to rescind that view.

To address the first paragraph, let's take things a step further. Both miqo'te and hyur are 'races of man'. So rather than a miqo'te being a 'hyur with cat ears and a tail', a miqo'te is actually a MAN with cat ears and a tail -- similarly in a fashion of a hyur being a MAN without cat ears and a tail. There is absolutely zero pressing need to emphasize the differences; that is entirely on the discretion and style of the roleplayer and SHOULD NEVER be judged as 'right or wrong'. They're standing right in front of you wagging the damned tail, use your imagination! If roleplayers were made to adhere to this as a standard, then my Roegadyn would forever be heaving his barrel chest, my elezen would always have to draw emphasis to his neck and I would end up lacing every one of my lalafell emotes with popoto allegory.Â

For those who are accused of 'ignoring' the lore. I take that with a grain of salt. I have seen many Seeker characters who are city-born and raised, and therefore completely oblivious to the tribal culture of their race. Nothing wrong with that at all. In addition, it is entirely up to the roleplayer to decide how their character feels about the miqo'te social structures. If they decide to give them active disdain for it because they can't really take to it OOC -- that is their right. It's pretty awful to expect other people to play their characters exactly to those expectations.Â

That third point of yours is more or less a rehashing of the first. Miqo'te aren't so much a 'hyur in cosplay' as they are men with 'this and that feature'. They're men. That's the core of it. Anything else is just dressing that a roleplayer can either choose to elaborate on or not. As much as I side-eye at some of the catboy/catgirl fetishists, I've run through the MMO scene long enough (and it doesn't have to be that long!) to know that THAT GROUP of roleplayers who fetishize the race are in no way near representative of the whole. Man, every game with a hot body is gonna have someone playing the body to get off on it. It's a fact of life -- and not AT ALL in any way representative of the majority of Miqo'te roleplayers.Â

Hell, I play a highlander because GODDAMN THAT BODY -- but that's not the only reason, and it certainly doesn't define me as a roleplayer, writer or person.

I think when someone looks through the lens of expectations -- especially awfully specific ones -- they are bound to be disappointed when -- hey! Different people have different ideas, and approach things in various ways! I've been around the roleplaying block in this game a few times and seen a LOT. The things you're complaining about are not as widespread as you think. They're just very visible because they stand out -- and two out of three of them aren't really an issue at all, just a matter of player preference.Â

In conclusion: Different strokes for different folks, but don't expect the strokes to all suit you.

To clarify: 'Men' is used in the context of 'mankind' here.

Gegenji · **01-28-2015, 11:28 AM**

(01-28-2015, 11:14 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Hell, I play a highlander because GODDAMN THAT BODY -- but that's not the only reason, and it certainly doesn't define me as a roleplayer, writer or person.

I have to also wonder how much of this comes from just popularity of the race, too. I note these sorts of threads only seem to pop up (both here and on the main forums) in regards to Miqo'te, and similar hintings towards the Au Ra. Cat people and dragon people, common "attractive" things.

I wonder how many such threads would come out if it was common fact that, say, Roegadyns saw Lalafell as a delicacy. Or Lalafell were actually born from seeds planted in the ground and were pulled forth from the earth full-grown screaming and wailing.

Heck, there's things in lore for other races that people don't seem to enforce emoting about or focusing attentions on. A Dunesfolk's protective eyes, for one - sure, it creeps some players out, but how many Dunesfolk emote about those eyes? Or a Roegadyn's last name being "Son of" or "Daughter of" their father, implying importance in one's patriarchal line? How many Roes actually have put thought into the father figure their last name draws from?

Warren Castille · **01-28-2015, 11:47 AM**

(01-28-2015, 11:28 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(01-28-2015, 11:14 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Hell, I play a highlander because GODDAMN THAT BODY -- but that's not the only reason, and it certainly doesn't define me as a roleplayer, writer or person.

I have to also wonder how much of this comes from just popularity of the race, too. I note these sorts of threads only seem to pop up (both here and on the main forums) in regards to Miqo'te, and similar hintings towards the Au Ra. Cat people and dragon people, common "attractive" things.

I wonder how many such threads would come out if it was common fact that, say, Roegadyns saw Lalafell as a delicacy. Or Lalafell were actually born from seeds planted in the ground and were pulled forth from the earth full-grown screaming and wailing.

Heck, there's things in lore for other races that people don't seem to enforce emoting about or focusing attentions on. A Dunesfolk's protective eyes, for one - sure, it creeps some players out, but how many Dunesfolk emote about those eyes? Or a Roegadyn's last name being "Son of" or "Daughter of" their father, implying importance in one's patriarchal line? How many Roes actually have put thought into the father figure their last name draws from?

I do think a large portion of choosing a race is the superficial part. I mean, what do we know about the races before we start playing? We have tiny onion people, we have human guy, we have STRONG HUGE human guy, we have elf, dark elf, beargorillaman, red beargorillaman, and catgirl catboy. People are going to gravitate towards what they find pleasing, be it archetypical or aesthetically.

Cato · **01-28-2015, 11:50 AM**

I don't think there's anything wrong with picking a race based on whether or not it's conventionally attractive. I do think it raises alarm bells when a character has no depth beyond 'look how hot I am' though.

I role-play a blood elf over in WoW but that's a combination of me finding my character easy on the eyes and more importantly because I love the race's lore and culture.

FFXIV doesn't have a lot to draw on when it comes to racial lore though, as mentioned earlier.

Kinono · **01-28-2015, 11:50 AM**

(01-28-2015, 11:28 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I wonder how many such threads would come out if it was common fact that, say, Roegadyns saw Lalafell as a delicacy. Or Lalafell were actually born from seeds planted in the ground and were pulled forth from the earth full-grown screaming and wailing.

...I would have to retcon SO MUCH.

(01-28-2015, 11:28 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Heck, there's things in lore for other races that people don't seem to enforce emoting about or focusing attentions on. A Dunesfolk's protective eyes, for one - sure, it creeps some players out, but how many Dunesfolk emote about those eyes? Or a Roegadyn's last name being "Son of" or "Daughter of" their father, implying importance in one's patriarchal line? How many Roes actually have put thought into the father figure their last name draws from?

I find the phsyical features of lalafell (besides the height and rotundness, obviously) are much harder to convey. Unless the brightness of the sun is specifically brought up, I'm gonna have a hard time working protective eye film gracefully into my emotes. I do abide by the typical hatred of cold and even the occasional flight of superstition, but those are more racial personality quirks than physical features.

Sounsyy · **01-28-2015, 11:55 AM**

Merp. Sounsyy is Miqo'te because Sounsyy was Mithra in XI. Honestly no other reason. She could just as easily be played as Hyur with very little retcon. Why? Well, for one, when I created her, Miqo'te lore didn't even exist, and by the time it did, it didn't really make a lot of sense with her story.

I did add in some Seeker Miqo'te drama into the backstory, but (to keep from retconning Sounsyy's personality) most of it she is unfamiliar with or doesn't remember. And I think, for myself, that's enough. Sounsyy is a Seeker raised in Ala Mhigo, then after it was razed Gridania, Ul'dah, and Limsa. She's never interacted with a Tribe. It's not a part of her lifestyle. So naturally, she doesn't behave like a Tribal Miqo'te. She behaves like her fellow Ala Mhigans.

Is this evidence that I don't know XIV's lore? Hehehe....
No, it simply means that if I were to make Sounsyy behave/adhere to a Seeker background, I might as well scrap her and start over, but I'm not gonna do that cuz attached. I will spoiler what I did to introduce some Seeker culture into her background though:

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Iex · **01-28-2015, 11:58 AM**

(01-28-2015, 11:28 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(01-28-2015, 11:14 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Hell, I play a highlander because GODDAMN THAT BODY -- but that's not the only reason, and it certainly doesn't define me as a roleplayer, writer or person.

Heck, there's things in lore for other races that people don't seem to enforce emoting about or focusing attentions on. A Dunesfolk's protective eyes, for one - sure, it creeps some players out, but how many Dunesfolk emote about those eyes? Or a Roegadyn's last name being "Son of" or "Daughter of" their father, implying importance in one's patriarchal line? How many Roes actually have put thought into the father figure their last name draws from?

Depends... really, if the character knows who their father is. If that isn't the case, they may improvise. One of my characters hasÂ aÂ 'title' as his father, because his father was probably a drunken one night stand with his pirate mother.Â Then there are folks who dislike their father so they cut that out. Finally there are Hellguard which cut out the family name all together most the time for different reasons but in my case because Grave Shadow son of Hollow Voice would be a damn mouthful to relay every time.

As for the eyes... they are the only way my character (read me) can tell plainsfolk apart from dunesfolk. However, getting his face up in their 'grills' just too look at the eyes is a bit rude. So most the time he avoids the topic or commits social awkwardness when he can't identify them easily.

***Maril*** · **01-28-2015, 12:08 PM**

I find that my Miqo'te has actually taught me as a roleplayer quite a lot. For one he's my first male character, but secondly the lore itself has been "forcing" (It's such a strong word) me to deal with or think about some aspects of their culture and behavior that have otherwise been a taboo either IRL or in other RP communities, and I definitely do not think anyone should straight up denounce their lore because as much as it has been a bit challenging at times (Like, learning how to even Polyamory, thank goodness for the guide) I feel like I've uh. Grown a bit? and I have actually come to enjoy the generally mature-mindset that I see a lot on the RP community here. I mean, sure, some people still choke up and have a heart-attack when you mention ERP, but that is more the exception to the rule it seems. Thirdly, as a roleplayer I have always gravitated towards the standard human race in the various games, the Miqo'te is the first race that I found I could still relate to in some way but where it's still definitely not just a human - I believe that through playing my Miqo'te, I've managed to expand my horizon and see more possibilities. Maybe in future games I'll be able to take a step further and play a race that is more beast-like than human like. I really appreciate that as a roleplayer, I love learning and I don't think we ever truly stop learning and growing.Â
My Miqo'te is city born-and-raised and is as such not a deep part of the cultural norm of the keepers, but I am happy to say (because it has been fun!!) that a lot of the points where he differs have been recurring themes in his RP when it comes to reactions from others. For example, he's been looked down upon quite a bit of taking a shining to men and generally not wanting to spend his life producing as many kitts as possible.Â

I get a little miffed when people say that all Miqo'te rpers are just yaoi/yiff/anime/insert-your-fandom-fetish-here excuses, because it's a bit of a short-sighted generalization that doesn't fit 95% of the serious RP crowd that has a miqo'te. It's kind of like saying all football fans are violent hooligans. In general, I haven't been in contact with the fandoms and the fetishes that people so often compare it to - I don't watch a whole lot of Anime and I'm not big on the japaneese culture. Literally what I thought when I saw the Miqo'te was that I like cats, in the sense that I find them interesting, and felt it was kind of cool to see that kind of a mix between man and cat. Just like I'm sure there's a lot of people getting interested in the Au Ra because dragons are fucking awesome like. So that makes them interesting to them.Â

Give your local Miqo'te a chance <3

K'nahli · **01-28-2015, 12:10 PM**

(01-28-2015, 10:43 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(01-28-2015, 10:37 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: What's wrong with Seeker culture?

To take a guess:

SE handed players lore that outright said "These guys in specific get ALL the tail they want, and yes, you can play as one."

They made Sex God a playable race.

But that's such a modern societal view of it. I wonder how many tias actually see that side of it as opposed to treating it as a position of respect and honour. It defines them as the most capable hunter in the tribe and one whom bears the responsibility of siring the next generation. All I ever see are people scrutinizing it and writing it off as though it were just like:

"lol im nuhn now. all de girlz are mien."

Plus they don't really get any girl they want when they want. They obvious have to establish relationships with some of the girls that support him and not just treat them as pregnancy machine, haha.

I don't know, but I think that any miqo'te that calls the setup a harem probably wants it to be a harem if that's the only way they can see it.

(01-28-2015, 11:28 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Or Lalafell were actually born from seeds planted in the ground and were pulled forth from the earth full-grown screaming and wailing.

This is almost like.... genuinely my canon perception of how lalafel come to be, hahahahaha ;;

Warren Castille · **01-28-2015, 12:15 PM**

(01-28-2015, 12:10 PM)Knahli Wrote: But that's such a modern societal view of it. I wonder how many tias actually see that side of it as opposed to treating it as a position of respect and honour. It defines them as the most capable hunter in the tribe and one whom bears the responsibility of siring the next generation. All I ever see are people scrutinizing it and writing it off as though it were just like:

"lol im nuhn now. all de girlz are mien."

Plus they don't really get any girl they want when they want. They obvious have to establish relationships with some of the girls that support him and not just treat them as pregnancy machine, haha.

That requires nuance and reading, though. We're discussing the lowest-denominator groups who saw tails, ears and alpha male positioning and stopped reading. Good roleplayers will play good characters. I'm challenging the idea that not emoting your tail or being overtly-miqoish in emotes removes you from the "good roleplayer" side of things.

I do not think SE did themselves any favors incorporating such a taboo concept, though. It's going to draw folks who are only in it for the ass, and has.

FreelanceWizard · **01-28-2015, 12:21 PM**

So, naturally, as the player of a miqo'te main, I feel I have to chime in. Smile

I apologize in advance if this comes off as defensive.

In RP, I try to emote L'yhta's tail and ears regularly, especially when they'd be very noticeably expressive or what they're doing adds nuance to what she's saying. After all, if the emote isn't benefitting the narrative in some way, why do it? Emoting it when it doesn't add anything is, as Warren noted, somewhat redundant. I'll admit I could do a bit more in this regard, though. As for the improved sense of smell, I don't use that primarily because a trait of my character is that she's imperceptive, especially so for a miqo'te.

As for the overall lore, much of L'yhta's character concept is related to the way Seeker tribes work -- bearing in mind that there's a fairly wide variance in how that's interpreted. What I wanted to do was take a character who, by all rights, was a normal member of her culture and introduce life-changing experiences that would serve as the Call to Adventure in her story. So, I took some of the (frankly, squickier) parts of Seeker lore, combined them with the upheaval of the Calamity, and introduced a major event in her backstory that caused her to leave her home and old life. She's so loudly and obnoxiously pro-Limsa and anti-tribal culture as a way of separating herself from her prior life and attaching herself to a new culture she doesn't fully understand (reaction formation -- her favored defense mechanism). Things like eternal bond ceremonies are somewhat confusing to her because, where she grew up, they didn't have such things. It's not that she doesn't get the concept, but rather she doesn't entirely grok why you'd do them at all. That said, she adapts because she's trying to assimilate into a culture that she actively wants to be a part of, as she prefers the Bright City Lights and Adventurer's Life over a simple tribal existence.

Certainly, one can accuse me of breaking lore here, but honestly, I think a tribal miqo'te ultimately must leave the tribal culture and assimilate into city-state culture to some degree in order to succeed as a professional adventurer. I realize not everyone plays an adventurer character, but I think it's quite unfair for those of us who do -- or who for other reasons choose to have our character be part of the city-state cultures -- to be viewed as "hyur in cosplay" and written off as poor role-players who should be avoided. I like to think I have a reasonable narrative justification, informed by the lore, for why my character is the way she is and does the things she does.

All that said, I do wish there were more tribal miqo'te about, and I do wish we saw more conflict between the "city miqo'te" and the "country miqo'te." I try to rile them up when the opportunity presents itself, but since city miqo'te are more common in cities (which is, primarily, where L'yhta hangs out) and country miqo'te tend to keep to themselves (which makes sense, as a minority culture attempting to preserve itself), the opportunity is rarely presented.

Kinono · **01-28-2015, 12:21 PM**

(01-28-2015, 12:15 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: It's going to draw folks who are only in it for the ass, and has.

That's why I play lalafell exclusively in first-person, though.

Zhavi · **01-28-2015, 12:24 PM**

You know what irritates me about fantasy? The lack of attention to detail of culture. It's one thing if you have a single isolated group of a species that is the only group of that species, but to say 'all dwarves love drinking beer and mining' or 'all miqo'te of this particular subspecies are tribal' or ... hell, anything that goes 'the vast majority of this species acts this way' is supremely, supremely annoying to me. I mean, yes, we all have a tendency to be ethnocentric, but to present things as the rule rather than a part of the rule. . .

it leads to debates like this.

biology does not equal culture. And we have a wider range of species than humans that shows us this! Animals too have their own subcultures, particularly when looking at certain types of apes or even other animals like ravens. Groups will adapt to their surroundings and pick up tool uses that others don't, as well as methods of communicating with each other and how they interact with other species -- they adapt to their surroundings and learn from each other.

If you want biology to be a bigger indicator of behavior, then developers need to dig deeper than 'hurr durr this group looks different and is haughty'.

Otherwise, yeah, every single damn group is going to have similar characteristics because they're all going to be various types of (horrendously shallow) human behavior. The biggest difference is that rather than being dynamic devs are taking the lazy route and going 'well this one is like an exaggerated version of this human trait, and this one is like an exaggerated version of this human trait' etc.

So, yup, to me so long as the history of the character makes sense for the behavior (ie, did not grow up in the stupid little microcosm the devs determined to be how all of the species miraculously developed culturally), of course you're going to see some hyurs with tails.

My cat grew up in the city, and you bet your ass she acts like it. And at that point? Yeah, the only thing that truly separates her from the other species is the undeniable biological differences: good senses, a hatred of the sun, and legs suited for climbing and running.

/rant

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