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Ashren Dotharl · **02-20-2015, 05:40 PM**

(02-20-2015, 05:23 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(02-20-2015, 04:35 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(02-20-2015, 07:17 AM)Zelmanov Wrote: I'm sure as hell trying to help cultivate an inclusive RP community to bring to Ishgard
The irony of this statement is that Ishgardians are anything but inclusive.

We seem to be doing okay with the Gridanians being traditionally xenophobic as well as the Ul'Dahn socio-economic good ol' boys club that likes to dump on Ala Mhigans and treat them little better than unwanted slaves.

At least Ishgard looks to be having a change of heart. I doubt you'll ever change the Ul'Dahns and Gridanians, though.Â

The xenophobic attitude the Gridanians are supposed to be known for is almost completely unapparent in the game outside of the Archer quests and the initial cutscene for those who started there. Most Gridanian NPCs are all too happy to talk and help out outsiders it seems, and there are even Ul'dah merchants there now. I think once they had to accept aid from Ul'dah to start reconstruction they lost their attitude towards outsiders for the most part.

As for Ul'dah, I actually expect a change in their socio-political climate soon with the way the storyline is going (I won't post spoilers), but even then Ul'dah only treats one group of people with any sort of disdain, that being refugees. Ishgard treats everyone not from Ishgard with disdain, and even goes as far as to call all outsiders and anyone who help them heretics in at least one case.

One thing you REALLY have to take into consideration is just because a few people in Ishgard like the Warrior of Light, does not mean they will suddenly become accepting of any random person who wants to come into their city. This is probably the most important fact to consider.

Seriphyn · **02-20-2015, 06:24 PM**

Ul'dah is the most welcoming to immigrants so long as you can earn your keep. Refugees are disliked because they are perceived as those who failed to work hard.

The fact the Flame General is Ala Mhigan (as well as the Grand Flame Marshal being Ishgardian), we have numerous Ala Mhigan/Highlander soldiers in from Sultansworn to Brass Blade, and that there are two Ala Mhigan/Highlanders on the Syndicate (incl. Flame General) suggests that everyone is welcome in Ul'dah presuming you can work hard.

Ishgard will probably become like Gridania where outsiders are disliked but nonetheless needed on a practical level.

Khadan · **02-20-2015, 07:21 PM**

(02-20-2015, 05:40 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(02-20-2015, 05:23 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(02-20-2015, 04:35 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(02-20-2015, 07:17 AM)Zelmanov Wrote: I'm sure as hell trying to help cultivate an inclusive RP community to bring to Ishgard
The irony of this statement is that Ishgardians are anything but inclusive.

We seem to be doing okay with the Gridanians being traditionally xenophobic as well as the Ul'Dahn socio-economic good ol' boys club that likes to dump on Ala Mhigans and treat them little better than unwanted slaves.

At least Ishgard looks to be having a change of heart. I doubt you'll ever change the Ul'Dahns and Gridanians, though.Â
The xenophobic attitude the Gridanians are supposed to be known for is almost completely unapparent in the game outside of the Archer quests and the initial cutscene for those who started there. Most Gridanian NPCs are all too happy to talk and help out outsiders it seems, and there are even Ul'dah merchants there now. I think once they had to accept aid from Ul'dah to start reconstruction they lost their attitude towards outsiders for the most part.

As for Ul'dah, I actually expect a change in their socio-political climate soon with the way the storyline is going (I won't post spoilers), but even then Ul'dah only treats one group of people with any sort of disdain, that being refugees. Ishgard treats everyone not from Ishgard with disdain, and even goes as far as to call all outsiders and anyone who help them heretics in at least one case.

One thing you REALLY have to take into consideration is just because a few people in Ishgard like the Warrior of Light, does not mean they will suddenly become accepting of any random person who wants to come into their city. This is probably the most important fact to consider.

I think that you're ignoring some very important factors here and basing an conclusion off of some salty gate guard NPC. We don't let the doorman tell us how the movie is inside; we go and see it for ourselves! Nor do we allow a single person to dictate to us the representative attitude and/or culture of an entire people.

Just because we as the de facto warrior of light do not experience the xenophobic contempt of the Gridanians does not in any way erase that part of their culture. Gridanians have routinely in the past been very unwelcoming and even booted out the aforementioned Ala Mhigan refugees. Their attitude has likely not changed one bit and I would go so far as to say that you, again as the de facto WoL do not experience that, but anyone and likely everyone would probably be met with suspicion if not passive-aggressive hostility. Much in the way that the Feudal Japanese might act towards a house guest that they didn't particularly like. Will you be polite to them? Yes because societal norms dictate that that is just how things are done. Will you talk mad crap about them after they leave? You betcha. I imagine that the Gridanians as described in lore and backed up by the screenshots inÂ Ansemaru's Gridanian censusÂ are all about saving face and avoiding shame in public.

With respect to Ul'dah,Â I highly doubt anything will change there. The City of Sin which bases its culture almost entirely off of the concept of things being bought and sold (including people, though any would likely say that slavery is illegal but everyone knows that there are different kinds of 'slavery'), even their religion is based in it with the primary worship of Nald'Thal. Fun fact: When your culture shifts towards hyper-capitalism, it does so at the expense of widespread fundamental values. I.e. an Ul'dahn is unlikely to ever utter the phrase "Ask not what your country can do for you; but what you can do for your country". Rather it would be societally expected that your country pay you for any service rendered no matter how menial or patriotic. All things have a price in Ul'Dah. I'm sure there's even an NPC or two who will echo that but I can't be bothered to look it up right now.Â

As far as the Ala Mhigans are concerned, the only way that their lot in life within Thanalan will improve is by conquering Ul'dah from within (unlikely) or by peacing out (more likely and practical assuming that they have the means to do so). Will Ul'Dah's chief money grubbers eventually be brought to task for their despicable behavior thus far? I hope so. But it won't change that the general opinion of Ul'Dah with respect to the Ala Mhigan refugees is one of base contempt and near-disgust. The more things change; the more they will stay the same.Â

In conclusion I will simply cite that your own words back at you with respect to Ul'dah and Gridania:
"just because a few people in Ishgard like the Warrior of Light, does not mean they will suddenly become accepting of any random person who wants to come into their city."

Replace Ishgard with Ul'dah/Gridania and suddenly the view is expounded in all directions. A few words of wisdom with regards to Theocratic nations and societies. These people don't fear strangers or even outsiders all that much. Sociologically what they fear is outsiders judging them for their beliefs or attempting to change said beliefs. They fear, if fear can be used as the appropriate term, having to fight for their own beliefs. There's obviously a great deal of contempt for those that do not believe in a similar fashion, which in the case of Ishgard is the following of Halone's Enchiridion and the worship of the Fury herself a the patron deity of the entire nation. Will they respect the belief in the other 11 gods? I'm sure they will but they will likely not think better of you for it. This is both a source of national pride and international exclusion. In the case of Ishgard's Holy See, not only a powerful theological and military force on its own without the support of the four great houses, you see an odd middle-ground between theocracy and ecclesiocracy. Regardless, you will find that in societies like that of Ishgard, it is not the outsider that they will 'fear', rather what the outsiders represent. This is usually dispelled by a good old-fashioned rubbing of elbows. And, you know, having a thousand year-old enemy constantly threatening to burn your nation to the ground and being in dire need of help doesn't hurt that much, either.

Apologies, I didn't intend for a small reply to turn into a full on lectured beat-down D=

edit: tried to edit for brevity but the spoiler tags hate me so whatever. =X

V'aleera · **02-20-2015, 07:23 PM**

(02-20-2015, 06:24 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Ul'dah is the most welcoming to immigrants so long as you can earn your keep.

Unless you're like the guy in the Ul'dah MSQ, and you try to earn a little too much keep for your own good. Then you get squashed by whatever Syndicate member feels most offended by the fact that you wanna be rich too.

Atoli · **02-20-2015, 07:31 PM**

(02-20-2015, 07:23 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(02-20-2015, 06:24 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Ul'dah is the most welcoming to immigrants so long as you can earn your keep.
Unless you're like the guy in the Ul'dah MSQ, and you try to earn a little too much keep for your own good. Then you get squashed by whatever Syndicate member feels most offended by the fact that you wanna be rich too.

Ul'dah MSQ? You mean the guy that got stomped right in front of Momodi for not paying back his debts to a loanshark? :o *Has made too many new characters in the past*

V'aleera · **02-20-2015, 07:34 PM**

No, the one Lolorito tried to cross off right before the Ascian with the golem showed up.

Atoli · **02-20-2015, 07:35 PM**

(02-20-2015, 07:34 PM)Intaki Wrote: No, the one Lolorito tried to cross off right before the Ascian with the golem showed up.

Ohh! Jeeze, totally forgot about that one xD

Ashren Dotharl · **02-21-2015, 08:29 AM**

(02-20-2015, 07:21 PM)Kayllen Wrote: snip~

Your post is unfortunately insanely long and difficult to respond to because you kinda just throw a lot of points out there, so I'll just try to break it all up and respond to it as best I can.

(02-20-2015, 07:21 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I think that you're ignoring some very important factors here and basing an conclusion off of some salty gate guard NPC. We don't let the doorman tell us how the movie is inside; we go and see it for ourselves! Nor do we allow a single person to dictate to us the representative attitude and/or culture of an entire people.

So for your first point, I'm not really sure what you're talking about here sadly. What gate guard are you referring to that you think I'm basing my opinion on? Are we talking about Ishgard? If so, then no... everything we know about them is that they are a hyper zealous nation who absolutely loathe outsiders as a whole (this is excluding the few individuals who will help you, or do like you) and have been all to happy to tell the rest of Eorzea to piss off with all their troubles because it didn't involve them.

(02-20-2015, 07:21 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Just because we as the de facto warrior of light do not experience the xenophobic contempt of the Gridanians does not in any way erase that part of their culture. Gridanians have routinely in the past been very unwelcoming and even booted out the aforementioned Ala Mhigan refugees. Their attitude has likely not changed one bit and I would go so far as to say that you, again as the de facto WoL do not experience that, but anyone and likely everyone would probably be met with suspicion if not passive-aggressive hostility. Much in the way that the Feudal Japanese might act towards a house guest that they didn't particularly like. Will you be polite to them? Yes because societal norms dictate that that is just how things are done. Will you talk mad crap about them after they leave? You betcha. I imagine that the Gridanians as described in lore and backed up by the screenshots inÂ Ansemaru's Gridanian censusÂ are all about saving face and avoiding shame in public.

Now on to your second point, I would like to start by saying that the primary reason that the Ala Mhigo refugees were turned away likely had nothing to do with the demeanor of the Gridanians, but more to do with the fact that it was not THAT long ago that Ala Mhigo attempted to invade and conquer Gridania. Not only that, but Gridania was supposedly hit harder by the Calamity than any other citystate and has been forced to rely on the assistance of the other nations to keep them from buckling under their own weight, they more than anyone else could not support a population of refugees.

I would also like to point out that you don't begin the game as the Warrior of Light, you begin the game as a mere adventurer and outside of a few isolated incidents with the Wood Wailers getting all butt hurt over adventurer's most Gridanians have a friendly and welcoming demeanor so long as you respect their ways. As I pointed out in my previous response, there is at least one Ul'dahn merchant selling her wares in Gridania, I believe Buscarron was originally from Limsa Lominsa if I'm not mistaken. Really the only group they show any outright disdain for are the Poachers in South Shroud.

(02-20-2015, 07:21 PM)Kayllen Wrote: With respect to Ul'dah,Â I highly doubt anything will change there. The City of Sin which bases its culture almost entirely off of the concept of things being bought and sold (including people, though any would likely say that slavery is illegal but everyone knows that there are different kinds of 'slavery'), even their religion is based in it with the primary worship of Nald'Thal. Fun fact: When your culture shifts towards hyper-capitalism, it does so at the expense of widespread fundamental values. I.e. an Ul'dahn is unlikely to ever utter the phrase "Ask not what your country can do for you; but what you can do for your country". Rather it would be societally expected that your country pay you for any service rendered no matter how menial or patriotic. All things have a price in Ul'Dah. I'm sure there's even an NPC or two who will echo that but I can't be bothered to look it up right now.Â

As far as the Ala Mhigans are concerned, the only way that their lot in life within Thanalan will improve is by conquering Ul'dah from within (unlikely) or by peacing out (more likely and practical assuming that they have the means to do so). Will Ul'Dah's chief money grubbers eventually be brought to task for their despicable behavior thus far? I hope so. But it won't change that the general opinion of Ul'Dah with respect to the Ala Mhigan refugees is one of base contempt and near-disgust. The more things change; the more they will stay the same.

All I can really say to this without spoilers is pay more attention to what is happening in the MSQ, and look forward to 2.55.

In conclusion you really haven't proven anything to mean, especially that Ishgardians are not a completely isolated nation who do not wish to be inclusive with the outside world, thus the original respond about the post being ironic still stands. Gridania may be a bit stubborn when it comes to outsiders, but the fact that they have an active Adventurer's Guild, airship traffic, and they pretty much host almost every holiday event now it seems shows they are still open to working with outsiders so long as they are respectful to the ways of Gridania and the Shroud.

As far as Ul'dah goes... well there really isn't any comparison, so not really sure why we need to bring them into this. What is happening between the Syndicate and the Refugees has nothing to do with them not being inclusive, that is just a strict caste system basically.

Ishgard is barely willing to help the Scions, and only then because of all the help you have provided them, they do not have an Adventurer's Guild (maybe this will change in 3.0?), they do not allow outsiders into the city properly, they barely tolerate outsiders in Coerthas. What about any of this makes you think that they are inclusive in any way?

Khoure · **02-21-2015, 09:02 AM**

in regards to the above discussion, I always thought that Ishgard just had approximately the same problems as Gridania, only stronger? Like I always got a similar, although more zealous feel to Ishgardians as compared to Gridanians. I mean, Ishgard has that big religious thing but if you replace that with 'the elementals' you can see the parallels.

Ashren Dotharl · **02-21-2015, 09:16 AM**

(02-21-2015, 09:02 AM)Khoure Wrote: in regards to the above discussion, I always thought that Ishgard just had approximately the same problems as Gridania, only stronger? Like I always got a similar, although more zealous feel to Ishgardians as compared to Gridanians. I mean, Ishgard has that big religious thing but if you replace that with 'the elementals' you can see the parallels.

The big difference though is that Gridania doesn't shun the outside world. They willingly participated in the Eorzea Alliance before and after the Calamity, they took part in Project Archon, they actively enlist the aid of adventurer's through their resident adventurer's guild. Ishgard does none of these things, and the only reason they were EVER a part of the Eorzea Alliance was because everyone else convinced them that Ala Mhigo would come for them next after conquering Gridania as the next closest citystate.

Khadan · **02-21-2015, 09:17 AM**

In the interest of keeping this from turning into a zebra posting war of who's opinion about $made up thing is right, I'll try to keep this as concise as possible.

1: there's no need to express exasperation at a lengthy reply; if you cannot counter said points then simply concede said points and move on to those that you can.

2: yes I am referring to the guard at the gates of judgment. Him and perhaps 3 or 4 other npcs are the only ones even remotely derisive to the WoL. All other Coerthan npcs are neutral or grateful for your help. Especially in the case of aurum vale and dzemael darkhold. Therefore by default the "everything we know" statement is fallacious from thebeginning because we don't know everything yet. In fact we know very little. This was addressed in my original post though, no sense in rehashing it here.

3: your point is that they aren't xenophobic because they are xenophobic?Â
3.5: I linked an imgur album taken by an rpc member showing the myriad ways that Gridanians think and feel about others. You've failed to address that in favor of doubling down on your original statement of the subjective view as the WoL.

4: caste systems are almost by definition based around excluding others.

my original statement was never that Ishgard is inclusive. In fact I made several points as to why they are exclusive and how a theocratic people might view others as well as how those societies become accepting of other peoples.Â

You don't know whether or not they have an adventurers guild; why wouldn't they? It would just be full of Ishgardian adventurers. Lastly it seems obvious to me that Aymeric is entertaining negotiations with the Eorzean Alliance to jockey for a better position or end rssult. That's simple negotiating strategy. Also the MSQ almost blatantly shoves in your face that there is third and perhaps even fourth party manipulation going on. The left hand may not know what the right is doing.

Doing this on my tablet while in bed so eff the formatting police; I do what I want.

Khadan · **02-21-2015, 09:19 AM**

(02-21-2015, 09:02 AM)Khoure Wrote: in regards to the above discussion, I always thought that Ishgard just had approximately the same problems as Gridania, only stronger? Like I always got a similar, although more zealous feel to Ishgardians as compared to Gridanians. I mean, Ishgard has that big religious thing but if you replace that with 'the elementals' you can see the parallels.

You've essentially nailed the crux of the matter.Â Thumbsup

V'aleera · **02-21-2015, 12:17 PM**

(02-21-2015, 09:16 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: The big difference though is that Gridania doesn't shun the outside world. They willingly participated in the Eorzea Alliance before

Technically so did Ishgard. A reeeeeally long time ago.

Inessa Hara · **02-21-2015, 03:50 PM**

(02-20-2015, 06:24 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Ul'dah is the most welcoming to immigrants so long as you can earn your keep. Refugees are disliked because they are perceived as those who failed to work hard.

The fact the Flame General is Ala Mhigan (as well as the Grand Flame Marshal being Ishgardian), we have numerous Ala Mhigan/Highlander soldiers in from Sultansworn to Brass Blade, and that there are two Ala Mhigan/Highlanders on the Syndicate (incl. Flame General) suggests that everyone is welcome in Ul'dah presuming you can work hard.

This is actually pretty accurate. As long as you have a marketable skill or your willing to become a soldier for the most part, most people will leave you alone.

Alot of people forget about Ul'dah is its kind of like the capitalist mindset of america. If you dont want to work or you dont have a marketable skill and you refuse to get a skill and expect handouts, people will piss all over you, not because your poor but because you dont want to get up and actually work.

Atoli · **02-21-2015, 04:04 PM**

(02-21-2015, 09:17 AM)Kayllen Wrote: 3: your point is that they aren't xenophobic because they are xenophobic?Â
3.5: I linked an imgur album taken by an rpc member showing the myriad ways that Gridanians think and feel about others. You've failed to address that in favor of doubling down on your original statement of the subjective view as the WoL.

I don't think Ashren was trying to say they weren't xenophobic, merely pointing out that Ala Mhigans were a bad example due to their terrible standing with one another brought upon then by their rocky relations in the past. Its pretty obvious they wouldn't like Ala Mhigans after that whole shebang blew up in Ala Mhigo's face. That example alone is quite a reasonable one, so its not the soundest example of xebophobia simply because its quite justified and rational.

This is all super off-topic though :S

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