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McBeefâ„¢ · **03-02-2015, 04:35 PM**

So.

Sure are a lot of catgirls out there.

Amirite peoples?!

McBeefâ„¢ · **03-02-2015, 04:36 PM**

Like a damn animal shelter.

Cato · **03-02-2015, 04:38 PM**

(03-02-2015, 03:44 PM)Presidio Wrote: Every MMO community I've RPed in recently has had a gender imbalance skewed in favor of female characters. When I first noticed this in Wildstar I assumed there were more women OOC at first, but after awhile I started to notice a pattern and took some surveys. The end conclusion I came to is somewhat obvious: there are tons of men playing as lesbians (and bisexual women) as a kind of fantasy fulfillment.

Is this a problem? That discussion brings up a broad set of issues and there is no one answer to that question. It depends on your priorities. Where I'm coming from however, I have a pretty simple answer: yes. Putting it simply, and in the broadest terms possible, it's a kind of virtual 'blackface' problem but with a set of lesbian-queer identities.

Men fundamentally lack the real world experience to know what it's like to be a woman in a culture of restrictive gender norms AND heteronormativity. We live in a society where lesbians in pornography exist almost solely for non-demographic consumers (straight men). It results in a product which incorrectly characterizes those relationships on so many levels (sexual and otherwise). Scissoring, long nails, out-of-the-mouth tongue fondling; most men's exposure to lesbians is deeply inaccurate to the average picture. And of course the problems go far beyond sex.

Even when women are straight, the way men RP them is often ham-fisted and insulting. Popular depictions often have subtle sexist roots. For example, I've seen men RPing women have their characters act horrendously socially incompetent only to fall back on the horribly misogynistic "I was on my period" excuse.

None of this means female characters played by men HAVE to be badly done. Many aren't. But many are too, and I think that's something people need to hear and think about.

I know people will disagree with me. I know many will get defensive. I hope it was food for thought none the less.

That's not an issue exclusive to female characters though. Some women are very guilty of making their male characters bisexual or gay and then pulling it off in as cringe-worthy a fashion as the men portraying wish-fulfillment lesbians. Or they'll consider a male character to only be masculine if they're super muscular, violent and stupid.

Gegenji · **03-02-2015, 04:45 PM**

I've... actually never played a female character. I've written for some in various stories (including a younger sister mechanical genius and a stressed, overworked apartment owner/college student), but never actually tried to play one in an tabletop RPG or in an MMO. I'm... not entire sure why.

I guess it just never occurred to me. I'm a guy, so I play a guy. Simple, straightforward. But this thread actually has me looking back on it and going "well, why not?" Can't come up with a good reason, either.

Maybe I'm just worried I'd screw up somewhere. That can stop me dead easily enough. Worry that I'll make a mistake and/or upset people by playing the character... wrong, somehow. Or perhaps it's the stigma that's been attached to the idea of a guy playing a girl character for so long that detracts me. I dunno.

IvikBlack · **03-02-2015, 04:45 PM**

(03-02-2015, 04:38 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: That's not an issue exclusive to female characters though. Some women are very guilty of making their male characters bisexual or gay and then pulling it off in as cringe-worthy a fashion as the men portraying wish-fulfillment lesbians. Or they'll consider a male character to only be masculine if they're super muscular, violent and stupid.

I agree that it's also very important for women playing male characters to attempt to understand the social context of masculine gender roles in writing their character as well.

Verad · **03-02-2015, 04:46 PM**

(03-02-2015, 04:25 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(03-02-2015, 03:44 PM)Presidio Wrote: [...]
Men fundamentally lack the real world experience to know what it's like to be a woman in a culture of restrictive gender norms AND heteronormativity. [...]
Well, looks like this particular cat's out of the bag, so I guess I'll discuss it now anyways.

So, yeah, this is something I notice quite a bit as I grow older. Where I take the perspective of "what would my character logically and rationally conclude at this particularly moment in time, given the sum total of their experiences, knowledge, and emotional state?", a number of people transparently use their characters as vehicles for sexual wish-fulfillment. That on its own is not necessarily bad, but it does tend to get irritating when those same people defend some really sexist depictions (being vague here because, well, it's a lot of crap) purely because they happen to find those things appealing to their libido, while completely disregarding how the characters in question would actually do things. It's bad writing and it's bad RP, and it's really annoying running into it for the hundred thousandth time.

The fact that you state the number of times you've run into it is telling. How much of an onus is there on any one player to depict anything in a particular way?

McBeefâ„¢ · **03-02-2015, 04:49 PM**

How about no one has a responsibility to accurately portray anything, and if you don't like it you can go RP with someone else.

I don't give a damn about the normative heterocrapfart butt poop.

I just play the char I want to play.

I really don't like the tone in this thread that unless you are a thing, or have a doctorate in it, you can't RP that thing.

IvikBlack · **03-02-2015, 04:49 PM**

If individual RPers don't want to have the onus for socially conscious RP placed on them, then it will ultimately result in a negative climate. If you don't ask individuals to be responsible for how they depict tricky things like gender and sexuality then the average depiction of those things will often be slapdash and upsetting.

McBeefâ„¢ · **03-02-2015, 04:53 PM**

(03-02-2015, 04:49 PM)Presidio Wrote: If individual RPers don't want to have the onus for socially conscious RP placed on them, then it will ultimately result in a negative climate. If you don't ask individuals to be responsible for how they depict tricky things like gender and sexuality then the average depiction of those things will often be slapdash and upsetting.

Welp, that's on you. If it is upsetting for someone they can remove themselves from it.

For example, I'm transgender. I don't give half a fuck about how people RP trans characters, it's fictional characters in a fantasy world.

It's just make believe yo.

Caspar · **03-02-2015, 04:53 PM**

(03-02-2015, 04:49 PM)Presidio Wrote: If individual RPers don't want to have the onus for socially conscious RP placed on them, then it will ultimately result in a negative climate. If you don't ask individuals to be responsible for how they depict tricky things like gender and sexuality then the average depiction of those things will often be slapdash and upsetting.

That's a fair expectation to have, I think, on a personal level, and I would suggest you voice those concerns to people you play with. It's not unreasonable to expect other players to behave in a way that would make you feel comfortable if they want to play with you; this about having fun, after all is said and done, and I wouldn't want someone to feel discomforted by the way I play, ever.

I just think that should be something you voice directly, rather than engage everyone in it even if they don't want to be involved.

Verad · **03-02-2015, 04:53 PM**

(03-02-2015, 04:49 PM)Presidio Wrote: If individual RPers don't want to have the onus for socially conscious RP placed on them, then it will ultimately result in a negative climate. If you don't ask individuals to be responsible for how they depict tricky things like gender and sexuality then the average depiction of those things will often be slapdash and upsetting.

Often these things can be slapdash and upsetting because individuals have examined their reasons for portraying a character in such a way, and created plausible reasons for doing so. Somebody can do this even while fully aware of and in opposition to heteronormative culture.

McBeefâ„¢ · **03-02-2015, 04:56 PM**

(03-02-2015, 04:53 PM)Verad Wrote:
(03-02-2015, 04:49 PM)Presidio Wrote: If individual RPers don't want to have the onus for socially conscious RP placed on them, then it will ultimately result in a negative climate. If you don't ask individuals to be responsible for how they depict tricky things like gender and sexuality then the average depiction of those things will often be slapdash and upsetting.

Often these things can be slapdash and upsetting because individuals have examined their reasons for portraying a character in such a way, and created plausible reasons for doing so. Somebody can do this even while fully aware of and in opposition to heteronormative culture.

For example, someone could play a trans character who only wanted to fool straight men, and wanted to just sneak into women's potties, and blah blah blah.

Is that a healthy portrayal? No, but those people /do/ exist. If you want to RP one, that's kind of weird, but whatever, more power to you.

No one has to RP the embodiment of what is best and most progressive about a given group of people.

bolded for emphasis.

Gegenji · **03-02-2015, 04:56 PM**

And what about couch potatoes? How do they figure into the numbers?

And on a more serious note, we talk about male and female ratios, but there's other skewed ratios as well. What about young and old? How many legitimately old characters are in game? I know there's Tellah in the Red Wings and, of course, there's JUDGE... but I haven't seen many others that go beyond... like.... 30.

I'm 30, does that mean I'm too old to be a hero? :<

And what about thin and fat? In fact, there's absolutely no way to play a fat Roegadyn. What if you want to be a fat, jolly old merchant? Not to mention that being overweight was actually a sign of high social standing in the past.

IvikBlack · **03-02-2015, 04:56 PM**

By slapdash I meant not thought out. If you make a character that's intentionally upsetting that's a different thing altogether. I fully support making characters that behave in crappy ways. I guess the kind of RPers I want to be involved with and the kind of RPers I don't can be summed up like this: is the regressive attitude coming from an OOC place or an IC place? If it's the former, I probably don't want to play with you.

And that's okay; I don't expect the world to be shaped according to my wants and desires. Thus my original cavaet of "whether or not this is a problem is up to your personal priorities."

Zyrusticae · **03-02-2015, 04:58 PM**

(03-02-2015, 04:38 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: That's not an issue exclusive to female characters though. Some women are very guilty of making their male characters bisexual or gay and then pulling it off in as cringe-worthy a fashion as the men portraying wish-fulfillment lesbians. Or they'll consider a male character to only be masculine if they're super muscular, violent and stupid.

Hah, yes. Sexism does work both ways, after all.

It's one of those reasons why I could never really understand the pushback against feminism. Fixing this stuff helps everybody, after all. As soon as femininity (or being "effeminate") is no longer considered negative, everyone is free to be whatever they want to be.

(03-02-2015, 04:53 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Welp, that's on you. If it is upsetting for someone they can remove themselves from it.

For example, I'm transgender. I don't give half a fuck about how people RP trans characters, it's fictional characters in a fantasy world.

It's just make believe yo.

Seriously, this is dumb. Please stop using this argument.

All you're trying to do is shut down any form of criticism, and that's not cool. No one in this thread, at least to my knowledge, has even been toxic in any way. We're allowed to point out instances of bad RP/writing we've seen and talk about the things that make them bad without you trying to shut down ALL DISCUSSION on the subject because you don't care for it.

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Female to Male Ratio

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