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Mercurias · **03-09-2015, 01:26 PM**

(03-09-2015, 12:29 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I have to admit, it feels like a bit of an arms race at times. Graeham was designed to gradually learn how to defend himself over time and currently he's in the process of learning how to use a firearm in preparation for the arrival of the machinist class.

Since he's only nineteen and I intend to stick with FFXIV and my character for quite some time I have no issue with his development happening at a leisurely pace. Though I do feel as though other role-players exploit him as a punching bag or refuse to let him put the skills he does possess into play because they'd sooner stand in the spotlight at every turn.

It's very enlightening as someone who primarily role-played xperienced soldiers in other MMO's.

I typically don't ever build a character based on what he or she can do. I focus more on who he or she is as a person...Character...Concept...Thingumy.

Sato was made to be a person with an absolutely horrible past who a) believed his backstory was just fine and b) believed he would ultimately die or go insane. What compelled me about the character was that he still did his best anyway. The magic, the race, the class, all of that happened after is just flavoring the concept. Sato keeps trying because it's how he gives his life meaning, at least to himself.

Solomon was built to be a person who was the opposite. Talented, but absolutely no motivation left. He believes he has nothing left to do in his life other than drink himself to the end of it and have a lot of fun along the way. I wanted to see if he would ever find something to live for again. So far he hasn't, but he's still enjoying himself.

Soren was a SLIGHT exception in that I did want him to be an airship pilot as part of his concept. Other than that, I made to be a person escaping what he KNOWS was a bad deal and revelling every free breath he takes. Life is an adventure, and the more fun you have doing it, the more magnificent even a short life will be. Soren lives for adrenaline.Â

The best characters are the ones who aren't defined by what they do, but by who they are. :p

Imo · **03-09-2015, 01:47 PM**

(03-09-2015, 01:26 PM)Mercurias Wrote: The best characters are the ones who aren't defined by what they do, but by who they are. :p

Eh, that's a generalization. It depends heavily on the character. Look at real life - there are many people, interesting people, for whom their job is an important facet of who they are. And, to give an in-game example, a paladin whose characterization doesn't include at all what it means to be a paladin to them is a probably poor excuse of one!

OverlordOutpost · **03-09-2015, 01:56 PM**

I've always been one that played on the idea that all PCs should be relatively low power. Â It's something that's stemmed from my pen and paper days where we weren't roving bands of bad-asses fighting mobs of enemies, but low class adventurers going toe to toe with orcs and goblins, and where a trained wizard was a massive threat.

Thusly I've never played very powerful characters, or even characters there were exceptionally versatile unless I was playing a villain. Â They've always tended to be either on the weaker civilian end; or very highly specialized individuals. Â Their weaknesses came not through personality, but simply through their specializations natural weaknesses. Â Personal was developed separately with respect to why they chose to do what they do.

In FF14 in particular, my character Katiti serves mainly the role of Tataru does in the story. Â A helper, an assistant, a manager, with very weak combat skills. Â If she was to ever focus she'd be at most 15-25 level-wise if you're using that to gauge character power.

This has opened her up a lot more readily to social and event-based RP, but any form of adventuring or combat RP and she's immediately outclassed by nearly everyone without question. Â Rather than being a bit miffed at being locked out of a lot of RP because of this, or 'leveling up' to shoe-horn her in, I've worked it into her personality. Â It gives her a bit of a inferiority complex and need to be important that manifests as overcompensation.

---

In terms of powerful characters and their flaws, I'm against the personality-as-a-flaw and the Superman type of flaw for balancing. Â

Personality flaws tend to be rather samey at time (even alluded to in earlier posts) and they're flaws that don't really show up in situations where the character is powerful unless purposefully scripted in. Â These are things like Batman having no sense of humor or real social skills with his co-workers, it's a nice quirk, but it's not a balancing flaw.Â

Superman flaws tend to be very specific flaws that either come in play very rarely, or require some sort of knowledge base to be able to play off of. Â Superman's' kryptonite flaw is useless as a balancing flaw because, again, it needs to be specifically scripted in and requires characters have massive luck stumbling on it or tons of knowledge based on it.

A good balancing flaw would be something like an incredible hulk type of powerhouse running out of steam very quickly, one-and-done super types, glass-cannoning, or an obvious opening that needs to be protected. Â Flaws that a powerful character needs to be aware of and work around in a fair number of their battles. Â Think characters like Zantana, who had very obvious method to stop her magic, or even real-life Jackie Chan- amazing fight with a literal weak-point on his head that could end him.

These flaws are also great because they allow other characters to participate in protecting your weakness. Â If D'Urist has almost unparalleled short range attacks, he shouldn't be able to use his sword to deflect off or redirect arrows/magic spells. Â He should be weak to them, and needs help from Urist Uriurist to keep up a powerful magic shield on him. Â Of course Urist Uriurist has very low physical capabilities so D'Urist needs to use his combat skills to keep him covered.

This kind of back-and-forth is what people feel overpowered characters tend to miss or lack, and this back-and-forth can result in some of the best shared RP ever.

Imo · **03-09-2015, 02:09 PM**

Fun fact: I've never met someone who played a high power character and was a snob about it, going "play high power or UR DOIN IT RONG and are a bad RPer".

But low power? Quite often.

OverlordOutpost · **03-09-2015, 02:14 PM**

(03-09-2015, 02:09 PM)Imo Wrote: Fun fact: I've never met someone who played a high power character and was a snob about it, going "play high power or UR DOIN IT RONG and are a bad RPer".

But low power? Quite often.

You haven't seen two high powers getting into a screaming match about why one guy's shield piercing magic drill can't piercing the other guy's heavens shield. "My drill will pierce the heavens!" "Nuh uh, my heavens are powered by antispirals." "Your antispirals can't stand up to my spirals!" "Well, I have a special spiral dampening field!"

Mercurias · **03-09-2015, 02:14 PM**

(03-09-2015, 01:47 PM)Imo Wrote:
(03-09-2015, 01:26 PM)Mercurias Wrote: The best characters are the ones who aren't defined by what they do, but by who they are. :p

Eh, that's a generalization. It depends heavily on the character. Look at real life - there are many people, interesting people, for whom their job is an important facet of who they are. And, to give an in-game example, a paladin whose characterization doesn't include at all what it means to be a paladin to them is a probably poor excuse of one!

That's actually a very good point! I would, however, state that a class/job could certainly BE part of the essence of a character and thus be who that character is. If your character was born and raised to become a Summoner and fight the Primals, that's absolutely okay for it to be there. That character could self-identify by the struggles and lessons that have put them on such a path.Â

This is HEAVILY done with Paladins also! Everyone loves to give them that fun choice where they have to pick between the person they love and a selfish deed or the greater good and watch their beloved fall into the lava.

I actually put that into one of my examples in a roundabout way, with the Soren character being a Pilot as part of his concept. It isn't quite the same as an in-game job, but it helps define who the character is. Soren sees himself as a friggin' airship pilot, not a machinist or soldier or adventurer. He's a pilot and what he loves to do is fly.

All that being said, my previous post was primarily to say that being over-or-underpowered is not what makes a character interesting and/or engaging. One of the characters that rings most true to many people is the person who carries a cheap sword and buckler and has no idea of how to use them, but has a heart that beats for the good of others anyway. Seeing that person rise or fall is more interesting to me than how good of a swordsman he is.Â

Likewise the fallen paladin, who has to choose whether to fall deeper and subvert everything he or she used to believe in or accept that their pride will be forever tarnished by their misdeeds and attempt to struggle back up alone the path of righteousness again.

Or you could even get funky with it and play a character who has a reputation as a legendary paladin and righter of wrongs who actually just has a habit of being in the right place at the right time to get the credit with minimal effort. The pally might even believe his own hype, or could be purposefully manipulating circumstances in order to come out the hero in order to use his or her prestige to climb upwards in society where he or she can begin to battle corruption in the system with an artificially inflated hero's reputation.

"Paladin" can mean a lot of things. It's who the Paladin is that defines the character. :p

Edit: And now that there has been a lot said about OP characters and how they tend to do wrong, have you seen many of them played RIGHT? I'm curious because I have a few examples I'll share in, uh, a less dense post.

...After someone deletes the accidental double post. Sorry.

I'm failed forum science 101 in college apparently.

Chris Ganale · **03-09-2015, 02:46 PM**

(03-09-2015, 02:14 PM)OverlordOutpost Wrote: You haven't seen two high powers getting into a screaming match about why one guy's shield piercing magic drill can't piercing the other guy's heavens shield. Â "My drill will pierce the heavens!" Â "Nuh uh, my heavens are powered by antispirals." Â "Your antispirals can't stand up to my spirals!" Â "Well, I have a special spiral dampening field!"

That's not what he said. He didn't say anything about two high-powered characters in a fight. He said he's never seen a high-powered character's player shaming a low-powered character's player for being low-power. But he has seen, and I agree with him, the prevalent attitude that seems to be "you're bad if you play high-powered characters, because low-powered characters are the bee's knees."

OverlordOutpost · **03-09-2015, 02:52 PM**

(03-09-2015, 02:46 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote:
(03-09-2015, 02:14 PM)OverlordOutpost Wrote: You haven't seen two high powers getting into a screaming match about why one guy's shield piercing magic drill can't piercing the other guy's heavens shield. Â "My drill will pierce the heavens!" Â "Nuh uh, my heavens are powered by antispirals." Â "Your antispirals can't stand up to my spirals!" Â "Well, I have a special spiral dampening field!"
That's not what he said. He didn't say anything about two high-powered characters in a fight. He said he's never seen a high-powered character's player shaming a low-powered character's player for being low-power. But he has seen, and I agree with him, the prevalent attitude that seems to be "you're bad if you play high-powered characters, because low-powered characters are the bee's knees."

I was replying snark to what I perceived as snark, but I'll give what I believe is the reason.

A badly played high-power character will reduce other people not at their level into nothing more than props or background scenary.

A badly played low-power character generally won't.

Chris Ganale · **03-09-2015, 02:53 PM**

Point, but it doesn't necessarily disprove his statement.

OverlordOutpost · **03-09-2015, 02:54 PM**

(03-09-2015, 02:53 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote: Point, but it doesn't necessarily disprove his statement.

It doesn't, but it does explain why it's usually complaining upwards, and not downwards.

Mercurias · **03-09-2015, 02:57 PM**

(03-09-2015, 02:46 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote:
(03-09-2015, 02:14 PM)OverlordOutpost Wrote: You haven't seen two high powers getting into a screaming match about why one guy's shield piercing magic drill can't piercing the other guy's heavens shield. Â "My drill will pierce the heavens!" Â "Nuh uh, my heavens are powered by antispirals." Â "Your antispirals can't stand up to my spirals!" Â "Well, I have a special spiral dampening field!"
That's not what he said. He didn't say anything about two high-powered characters in a fight. He said he's never seen a high-powered character's player shaming a low-powered character's player for being low-power. But he has seen, and I agree with him, the prevalent attitude that seems to be "you're bad if you play high-powered characters, because low-powered characters are the bee's knees."

I would personally say that I avoid playing a high-powered character because it is hard to play them well.

It's like a Justice League comic. The old joke is "Why is anyone else around when Superman can do everything?"

High powered (NOT Overpowered, which is something else entirely) characters absolutely have their place. If you play a Roegadyn monk whose fists and feet are empowered by aether, you're both lore compliant and going to be strong as all hell! Punching through walls and sending people flying!

And it's easy to BE high-powered!

It's just really hard to be high-powered and know when your character needs to step back and give other characters a chance to do something important. No story is worth hearing if you know the hero is always going to win.

Hell, I RP sometimes with a character who is a paladin with an eidetic memory. He memorizes your fighting style and plans for how to beat it. He can copy signatures perfectly. In its own way, that is high powered bordering on OP, but he plays it extremely low-key. He doesn't always take the spotlight. He can stand to be there as backup, and he LOSES plenty. Not only that, but the losses actually do bother him. He's high powered, but he isn't untouchable, and he doesn't hog the stage. He's a pretty decent character overall.

If you play a high powered character and play it WELL, then I salute you. It's only one facet of a character's actual importance anyway.

Imo · **03-10-2015, 08:40 AM**

(03-09-2015, 02:14 PM)OverlordOutpost Wrote:
(03-09-2015, 02:09 PM)Imo Wrote: Fun fact: I've never met someone who played a high power character and was a snob about it, going "play high power or UR DOIN IT RONG and are a bad RPer".

But low power? Quite often.
You haven't seen two high powers getting into a screaming match about why one guy's shield piercing magic drill can't piercing the other guy's heavens shield. Â "My drill will pierce the heavens!" Â "Nuh uh, my heavens are powered by antispirals." Â "Your antispirals can't stand up to my spirals!" Â "Well, I have a special spiral dampening field!"

That's the difference between being an arrogant roleplayer, and simply a bad roleplayer. Snobs are the former, e-peen waving powergamers are the latter.
Though I've seen a few examples of reverse e-peen waving, where people try to beat each other by claiming their character is the least powerful. That usually happens on forums, though, and not in the game.

Sidenote, since you mentioned tabletop RPGs: I've been playing those for roughly 15 years now, and there were games with all kinds of power levels; in some we were ordinary children with no combat training, in others wandering adventurers, in some we were mecha pilots controlling giant robots, in others a team of superheroes who protected Earth from giant monsters. And some of the best roleplaying I had actually happened in those high-power games, while many of the low-power games were just dungeon crawls where people didn't roleplay much because they were too busy trying to stay alive.

Another term from tabletop RPGs is Stormwind Fallacy, which I think is very relevant here. It claims that having an optimized character doesn't automatically mean you're bad at roleplaying, and vice versa, being a roleplayer doesn't mean you can't play an optimized character - and anyone who thinks otherwise is committing the fallacy. Optimization is not really a thing that exists in MMO RP, but replace "optimized" with "high power" and there you go. I've seen way too many people commit the Stormwind Fallacy.

(03-09-2015, 02:57 PM)Mercurias Wrote: It's just really hard to be high-powered and know when your character needs to step back and give other characters a chance to do something important. No story is worth hearing if you know the hero is always going to win.

I don't think it's that hard, if you keep it in mind. It's a bit like parenthood - if you're worried will you be a good parent, that means you probably will, because it means you're thinking about the baby, not about yourself. And, similarily, if you're worried your character might be too powerful, then you're probably fine, because it means you're thinking about the other players, not about yourself. Eventually, like with lots of roleplaying, it boils down to "don't be a spotlight stealing jerk".

Also, 99% of the time when personal character power matters, it's combat. And when roleplaying a battle, I go with the assumption that unless a character is explicitly bad at combat, then they're going to be effective - and thus, everyone has a chance to shine. If you play your character as powerful enough to destroy a small enemy army with a single attack, then you're breaking the lore because neither the PC nor any of the NPC allies are ever shown to be able to do that, in game mechanics or cutscenes.
That's fighting against NPCs, at least. It's slightly different when it's PC vs PC combat. But like I described a few pages ago, I'm really not a fan of that.

Poll: Which Character do you relate to most? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Adventurer 1	4.76%	2	4.76%
Adventurer 2	23.81%	10	23.81%
The Voidsent Potato	42.86%	18	42.86%
The Courier	28.57%	12	28.57%
Total		42 vote(s)	100%

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