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Bryn · **03-18-2015, 11:19 PM**

(03-18-2015, 11:13 PM)Telluride Wrote: Here's what I'm looking at:

"I expect better from the RP community, but clearly my standards are too damn high. And this despite the literacy rate here being far, far higher than most other corners of the Internet.

I don't even know where to begin. I just... I can't. I can't. "

Trying to start a discussion and quickly suggesting that all the potential audience is somehow inferior is a bad, bad sign, and that is exactly what I fear is demonstrated here. It too greatly suggests a brazen challenge and insult to the intelligence of people who may simply wish to maintain a peaceful forum.

We're critiquing the critique. And doing so calmly. Look, it can be done!

Yeah. I took that quote to be directed at those who are asking if 'Mary Sue' is sexist, due to Zyrusticae's earlier point about the issue raised in the Tumblr post obscuring the 'real issues', which is a point made in many posts in this thread.

Edvyn · **03-18-2015, 11:21 PM**

(03-18-2015, 11:19 PM)Bryn Wrote:
(03-18-2015, 11:13 PM)Telluride Wrote: Here's what I'm looking at:

"I expect better from the RP community, but clearly my standards are too damn high. And this despite the literacy rate here being far, far higher than most other corners of the Internet.

I don't even know where to begin. I just... I can't. I can't. "

Trying to start a discussion and quickly suggesting that all the potential audience is somehow inferior is a bad, bad sign, and that is exactly what I fear is demonstrated here. It too greatly suggests a brazen challenge and insult to the intelligence of people who may simply wish to maintain a peaceful forum.

We're critiquing the critique. And doing so calmly. Look, it can be done!

Yeah. I took that quote to be directed at those who are asking if 'Mary Sue' is sexist, due to Zyrusticae's earlier point about the issue raised in the Tumblr post obscuring the 'real issues', which is a point made in many posts in this thread.

it doesn't really matter who it's directed at it's still a bad idea

Telluride · **03-18-2015, 11:26 PM**

(03-18-2015, 11:21 PM)Edvyn Wrote:
(03-18-2015, 11:19 PM)Bryn Wrote:
(03-18-2015, 11:13 PM)Telluride Wrote: Here's what I'm looking at:

"I expect better from the RP community, but clearly my standards are too damn high. And this despite the literacy rate here being far, far higher than most other corners of the Internet.

I don't even know where to begin. I just... I can't. I can't. "

Trying to start a discussion and quickly suggesting that all the potential audience is somehow inferior is a bad, bad sign, and that is exactly what I fear is demonstrated here. It too greatly suggests a brazen challenge and insult to the intelligence of people who may simply wish to maintain a peaceful forum.

We're critiquing the critique. And doing so calmly. Look, it can be done!

Yeah. I took that quote to be directed at those who are asking if 'Mary Sue' is sexist, due to Zyrusticae's earlier point about the issue raised in the Tumblr post obscuring the 'real issues', which is a point made in many posts in this thread.
it doesn't really matter who it's directed at it's still a bad idea

It sets a bad precedent. It suggests that a debater has already WON all the discussions, and is much more likely to shake a finger in arrogant disdain at any who ask for more and better arguments.

In short, it Begs The Question, to use the official phrase in its actual meaning.

If you would know what I dread, it is this, and it is more like Zyrusticae's likely intent than I think the post could express:

[Image: mjaxmi1mntlhnmewmzayothmyjjm.png?w=604]

[Image: mjaxmi1mntlhnmewmzayothmyjjm.png?w=604]

Bryn · **03-18-2015, 11:30 PM**

(03-18-2015, 11:26 PM)Telluride Wrote: It sets a bad precedent. It suggests that a debater has already WON all the discussions, and is much more likely to shake a finger in arrogant disdain at any who ask for more and better arguments.

In short, it Begs The Question, to use the official phrase in its actual meaning.

If you would know what I dread, it is this, and it is more like Zyrusticae's likely intent than I think the post could express:

Alas, that image is so true.

And I agree re: the bad precedent. We seem to have made broadly the same point, and somehow arrived at an amiable resolution to a debate involving gender politics.

If a pig doesn't fly past my bus when I'm heading to work in the morning, I'll be sorely disappointed.

FreelanceWizard · **03-18-2015, 11:30 PM**

While I greatly appreciate just about everyone being generally calm given the very real potential for this to spiral out of control, I'd appreciate if everyone stayed on topic (specifically, the term "Mary Sue," its current use, its historical context, the gender politics associated with it, and so on). Thanks.

#magicAdminHat

Flashhelix · **03-18-2015, 11:32 PM**

i'm a mary sue

Zyrusticae · **03-18-2015, 11:57 PM**

Well, I WOULD make a serious post concerning the various responses made to my own but clearly that is too off-topic and I can say nothing more than that.

At some point the whole 'stay on-topic' has to be given a rest, because there's just no way to hold a discussion like this.

ChewableMorphine · **03-19-2015, 12:11 AM**

(03-18-2015, 11:57 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Well, I WOULD make a serious post concerning the various responses made to my own but clearly that is too off-topic and I can say nothing more than that.

At some point the whole 'stay on-topic' has to be given a rest, because there's just no way to hold a discussion like this.

RuleÂ 25 of the internet: Relation to the original topic decreases with every single post

PerkPrincess · **03-19-2015, 12:24 AM**

Ignoring a lot of the bullhonkery going on in the thread, I will put in on my two cents, as this is actually a really old article. This was going around maybe two years ago. And at first I was on the side of "No" until I spent more time to really digest it and process it.

Because my immediate thought was to go "but we have gary stu's..." But the fact is - no one actually ever -uses- Gary Stu. It's Mary Sue. And it's been that way since the term first came around, which was used to put down a lot of early/younger fanfiction writers, much who were predominately female.

So. I don't know? I've mixed feelings ultimately about it. At best I think it's a microagression more than a more typical sexism. It's just something we've all come to accept as ~part of our culture~, despite the fact it's just kind of problematic by itself. It's just an outdated relic of an era where webrings were still the best way to get into fandom.

To be honest I've kind of grown away from even using the term, because it's just kind of spiteful by itself and mean hearted. Roleplay and write what interests you.

Cato · **03-19-2015, 12:40 AM**

It's only problematic if people think too deeply into what isn't there. It's a term frequently applied to both female and male characters. Sometimes the 'Gary Stu' term is used instead but the meaning doesn't change even when it is.

It has little relevance to a character's gender. Plus it's overused from time to time but generally serves to describe particularly jarring and problematic characters in various stories.

I'm more inclined to suggest that the allergy many people harbour towards any criticism is the problem rather than anything regarding 'sexism'.

Verad · **03-19-2015, 12:48 AM**

(03-19-2015, 12:40 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I'm more inclined to suggest that the allergy many people harbour towards any criticism is the problem rather than anything regarding 'sexism'.

Allergy to criticism like, say, critiquing the implications of a commonly used term in RP theory?

Zyrusticae · **03-19-2015, 12:51 AM**

To be clear, Mary Sue refers to characters that are not just abnormally 'perfect' in most regards, but are also looked up upon by the rest of the cast as being so perfect.

Characters that are ONLY the former but are otherwise accosted by other characters are merely superheroes and, in RP, are usually godmoding (yes, godmoding with one 'd', because I grew up with video games where 'god mode' was a thing and I will always read it that way). I don't think it's actually possible to accurately refer to an RP character as a 'Mary Sue' outside of one-shot stories where NPCs are written in.

I, personally, have never referred to someone else's character as a 'Mary Sue', instead preferring more specific criticisms wherever applicable. Then again, I rarely comment on other peoples' characters to begin with...

Cato · **03-19-2015, 12:57 AM**

The last time I referred to a character as a 'Mary Sue' would be when describing Thrall back when I played World of Warcraft. It's a term that is still very much applicable and not something that needs to be eroded away entirely.

ChewableMorphine · **03-19-2015, 12:58 AM**

(03-19-2015, 12:51 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I don't think it's actually possible to accurately refer to an RP character as a 'Mary Sue' outside of one-shot stories where NPCs are written in.

I'll take "Canon OCs" for 300, Alex.

g0ne · **03-19-2015, 01:35 AM**

I'm so confused...

*sits down and starts eating chocolate*

I don't even know what to say regarding this! I'm trying! It's not working! DxÂ

*continues eating*

Poll: Is the term "Mary Sue" sexist? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Yes, it is.	3.48%	4	3.48%
No, it isn't.	84.35%	97	84.35%
I'm a bit mixed.	9.57%	11	9.57%
Other, see response below,	2.61%	3	2.61%
Total		115 vote(s)	100%

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Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes