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Domri Blackblade · **03-28-2015, 07:08 AM**

(03-28-2015, 07:06 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: If nothing needs to change, then nothing needs to change. However the point of this thread is to discuss possible changes.

on both sides

I'm not disputing that. I just keep seeing the argument tossed around that the community needs to change, which it very well may, and then listing under that a lot of personal shyness as a part of that. I'm saying there's not much the community can do to combat personal shyness. Not that there's nothing that community can do to be more open.

ArmachiA · **03-28-2015, 07:11 AM**

(03-28-2015, 07:08 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(03-28-2015, 07:06 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: If nothing needs to change, then nothing needs to change. However the point of this thread is to discuss possible changes.

on both sides

I'm not disputing that. I just keep seeing the argument tossed around that the community needs to change, which it very well may, and then listing under that a lot of personal shyness as a part of that. I'm saying there's not much the community can do to combat personal shyness. Not that there's nothing that community can do to be more open.

Right, I don't expect personal shyness to fall on the community (Hence why I'm against complete hand holding [obviously some hand holding is okay]) but was me actually asking for myself. I want to help shy people, since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.

Ilwe'ran · **03-28-2015, 07:15 AM**

With the speed this topic is going I'm sure that a big part of the messages which are posted by those who take the time to post big messages or are slow aren't read. It's a bit sad Undecided

Aside that, I'll repeat again the same thing :

You cannot change the community, you can only change yourself as a part of that said community or as someone who wants to break into that said community.

Everytime I read someone talking about "changing the community" I just want to go through the topic it's written, to count how many people wrote there and to compared the amount of people RPing on Balmung. As I said on my previous message, you might change the attitude of 2 or 3 people. Not the community. It's a sad truth but you have to accept it.

(03-28-2015, 07:11 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I want to help shy people, since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.

I and some others answered to this, as I said : Too many spam of the topic = unread messages or unanswered to.

Domri Blackblade · **03-28-2015, 07:19 AM**

(03-28-2015, 07:11 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Right, I don't expect personal shyness to fall on the community (Hence why I'm against complete hand holding [obviously some hand holding is okay]) but was me actually asking for myself. I want to help shy people, since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.

I'm going to throw up a disclaimer that I'm an assortment of abnormalities so what helps me might not help other people.

Though, I know something that helps me is just being friendly if and when I do apporach. It's a more passive thing, but it goes a long way. I always, always, always, stare at someone's name for a few minutes before I PM them and ask myself if I'm possibly bothering them. (ThenwhenIworkupthecouragetheyendupinaduty.) But I know most of that anxiety can be washed away by just having a friendly response.

Maybe a passing hug or hello in PMs. Doesn't have to be everyday. I don't talk to everyone everyday, nor do I expect everyone to talk to me everyday. But mostly it's just being apporachable, really. That does worlds.

ArmachiA · **03-28-2015, 07:25 AM**

(03-28-2015, 07:15 AM)Ilweran Wrote:
(03-28-2015, 07:11 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I want to help shy people, since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.

I and some others answered to this, as I said : Too many spam of the topic = unread messages or unanswered to.

I'm unsure what you're referring to but in that particular instance I was clarifying to Donri what I meant, not asking again. People did in fact answer the question and then he himself answered the question.

ArmachiA · **03-28-2015, 07:25 AM**

~Ironically posted twice~

Ilwe'ran · **03-28-2015, 07:31 AM**

*smiles at the second post*

If you want to help someone shy, get to know them OOC, include them in your RP, help them to meet your friends ? Dunno, it works for me and I can only speak for myself.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-28-2015, 07:38 AM**

(03-28-2015, 07:31 AM)Ilwe Wrote: *smiles at the second post*

If you want to help someone shy, get to know them OOC, include them in your RP, help them to meet your friends ? Dunno, it works for me and I can only speak for myself.

I kind of bodily throw myself toward them and hold them down until they stop screaming and and sobbing and then punch them with RP until they stop moving.

I can't even describe it more accurately than that

Kellach Woods · **03-28-2015, 08:49 AM**

See if I was trying to sell something on the forums at all times, perhaps I would have worded that differently. You're criticizing tone on a post made entirely out of frustration at reading 9 pages of the same RP tips tossed about without consideration to the people who've said "Yeah, that didn't work for me" - A post that had other posts written after it, one of which even offered a personal addendum to one of those because it actually worked one time for me and even when it didn't, some people scrolled up and one of them hit me up in /tell after the fact.

To me that feels like going into the Horrible PUGs thread and saying everyone there I would never RP with because their tone is horrible.

Also how would I not read anything into those words, especially after that was done to me with the implication that someone who RPs with literally almost anyone would hesitate in RPing with me?

* * *

That's the thing though - I know my personal approach style is different. I don't care much for knowing everything OOC about a character - I'll approach them on IC merits that my character has observed at the time or has legitimately heard about. That I can accept and just shrug because that's how I prefer my RP to happen.

Rumors are fair game though. Big Grin

(also i'm caving and putting ze wiki in my characters' Player Search - That's certainly a more elegant solution than having "RPer. Adventurer. Student. Caravan Escort. Not from Eorzea." in there.)

Aris · **03-28-2015, 08:49 AM**

(03-28-2015, 07:11 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Right, I don't expect personal shyness to fall on the community (Hence why I'm against complete hand holding [obviously some hand holding is okay]) but was me actually asking for myself. I want to help shy people, since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.

Approach them slowly. Toss some bait out. Don't make any sudden movements. You'll scare them away. Tongue

Um, well. As others have said, just being friendly and approachable goes a long way. Being asked a question or having a way into the conversation helps me a lot personally, because if someone talks to me I literally freeze like an animal and my mind goes blank.

If people go that extra mile as Berrod and Domri are doing, by reaching out more than just a 'hello', well that's completely awesome, because it helps break the ice completely. In Berrod's case, there is no escape. Perfect. But that is going the extra step, which I do not expect people to do because it's my problem, not theirs.

To be honest though my shyness has developed into something a bit more severe, so I might be way off the mark, but I hope it helps a bit any way.

Berrod Armstrong · **03-28-2015, 09:05 AM**

(03-28-2015, 08:49 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: See if I was trying to sell something on the forums at all times, perhaps I would have worded that differently. You're criticizing tone on a post made entirely out of frustration at reading 9 pages of the same RP tips tossed about without consideration to the people who've said "Yeah, that didn't work for me" - A post that had other posts written after it, one of which even offered a personal addendum to one of those because it actually worked one time for me and even when it didn't, some people scrolled up and one of them hit me up in /tell after the fact.

To me that feels like going into the Horrible PUGs thread and saying everyone there I would never RP with because their tone is horrible.

Also how would I not read anything into those words, especially after that was done to me with the implication that someone who RPs with literally almost anyone would hesitate in RPing with me?

* * *

That's the thing though - I know my personal approach style is different. I don't care much for knowing everything OOC about a character - I'll approach them on IC merits that my character has observed at the time or has legitimately heard about. That I can accept and just shrug because that's how I prefer my RP to happen.

Rumors are fair game though.

(also i'm caving and putting ze wiki in my characters' Player Search)

As I said, it wasn't anything to put you down (I just want to clarify that first). HOWEVER -- it is a thing that happens, and I was honest with my thoughts on it because hey, I'm only human, and other people have those thoughts too.Â

My intent was to identify yet another one of the reasons things like that happen. Sure, one can use a different tone in another post meant to captivate roleplayers, of course one may behave differently and more cordially in a game, but people still see -that one post- and it may happen that -that one post- is what makes the decision for them; based on experience or otherwise.

I've actually been in the situation where people did not want to approach me because my character was too lewd/sexual/forward, and because I cackled loudly and made dirty jokes too often in OOC chatÂ okay so maybe i still do it but i do it around a certain crowd. I had to start presenting myself a little differently.Â

Despite what I said, my views were on THAT post and on my state of mind when I read that post -- I have nothing against you/your character/your toon. That post gave me pause; and for some people that pause may be lasting. It isn't fair, it isn't pretty, but it is one of the things that happens.Â

On the other hand, I could encourage people who are put off to give folks a chance and see (I do that far more often than is wise).

Also yes good shamelessly promote the wiki, it really helps.Â

Nebbs · **03-28-2015, 09:15 AM**

There may be three scenarios here

1. Established RP helping New RPer
Well first they want to RP, all you need to do is provide open RP arms, take is slow and be gentle.
As most established folk have other commitments this tends to be moving people to the next stage in a helpful way.

2. New RPer meeting New RPer
This can be like finding your own way, a FC or friends help.

3. Established meets Established
Buyer beware

Qhora Bajihri · **03-28-2015, 09:45 AM**

There's something to be said for expectations. I'm not saying keep them low. I'm saying don't have them at all. Just pack them up and leave them at home. Don't expect anything from anyone, except what you yourself bring to the table, and you can't possibly be disappointed. Then any even tiny thing that happens is a plus and nothing is a negative.

That's not really possible in reality. Everyone has hopes for things. But keeping expectations out of the search for connections as much as possible, whether being or helping someone new, should help maintain a positive attitude and let it seem less like a chore. If you're working hard at it and expecting responses, especially certain types of or qualities of responses, you're going to be disappointed on any bad day, or series of bad days. If you're enjoying your attempts to make connections and not expecting anything beyond what you put out there, the capacity for a positive outcome increases exponentially.

Tiergan · **03-28-2015, 02:13 PM**

When it comes to the ultra-shy folks, I'm not sure if anything more can be done other than finding them a buddy to help shove them into RP (I like to think of it as an RP wingman/wingwoman :V) or just being as patient and welcoming as possible. That's a case where they really just need a good friend to act as the mentor/handholding figure for them to help them get over their anxieties, but at the same time -- no one is really obligated to take on that role for someone either, so it's a tough situation. They need a buddy who doesn't mind being that figure for them until they're more confident.

Also, when it comes to those wikis - they don't really do much all on their own after you create them. I personally only look through wikis after someone's done something or written something that caught my eye and made me more curious (or if they look really cool :V). It helps to find a way to sort of subtly attach it to your RP, so sticking it in your search info definitely can help because if you do an RP action that catches someone's interest, they can peek at your search info and then get more insight into your character.

I think this is why some folks have had success posting up writing on the forums as well -- people read their stories, get interested, and then poke at the wiki.

Tiergan · **03-28-2015, 02:47 PM**

(03-28-2015, 06:16 AM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(03-28-2015, 05:42 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: But as I've pointed out before some of the people who lace their words with sugar on this site are among the most spiteful and manipulative individuals in-game and are massive drama magnets. Despite that, their popularity and perceived status as 'gud rp' tends to protect them from any direct criticism.

On the other hand, quite a few of the 'blunt' posters who may put forth controversial and unpopular opinions have, in fact, turned out to be some of the friendliest and coolest people I've met thus far.

(03-28-2015, 06:01 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I think the best route to solve any potential misunderstands is really to just get in touch with people in-game or shoot them a private message. I mean, a lot of people parrot the phrase 'communication is important' but that should apply across the board rather than just in regards to IC affairs in my opinion!

I just feel like it's more beneficial to do that and come to some sort of compromise/informed opinion of someone through direct interaction rather than reading into people's posts or relying on what other people say about someone.

Open minds and all that!

I really don't feel I understand your stance at all. You seem to contradict yourself in a few of the points you make. Forgive me because it's 6AM and I've a fever I could cook eggs on, so I'm not going to defend the capability of my thinking parts.

However, I feel you have this huge chip on your shoulder about popularity and people who see a lot of RP. Are you not judging them based off of things like forum posts or have you spoken to every person who is 'popular' on some sort of personal level? Maybe you have specifics in mind, but the way I read your posts, it could apply to people you don't mean it to apply to. Frankly, I don't know if your words are taking a jab at me due to how vague this underlying problem you have is, but that's neither here nor there. I'd just be careful about the complaining about groups in such a vague manner cause people might not know who you are applying it to.

Okay, this is slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, but I feel like I need to get this down on the table and out in the open because I get the feeling it's a massive source of tension in conversations like these:

Graeham, I have to be honest in that every time a vague "popular group of people who are manipulative two-faced assholes" gets brought up, I pause and feel some level of anxiety over whether or not I or folks I know are getting lumped in there. I have to keep reminding myself that it's impossible (well, at least for me specifically) because you and I have never interacted outside of this website and I haven't really even been online enough for the past three months to really do much RP to begin with, but the anxiety is there nonetheless and I'm sure other people likely feel it too.

Logically, I know you probably just mean a couple of specific jerks you've encountered, but because everything is worded so vaguely, it just comes off as "Most of these established/'popular' RPers consist of heinous dickwads who are nice and sweet on the surface, but are complete assholes in game that mistreat new folks."

Toss in the fact that there is a reoccurring theme of "Popular/Veteran Members VS Newbie Members" (which I totally get because whenever you have a long established group and a new, shiny group, rifts sometimes do form that need to get bridged) and it just makes the entire conversation feel really tense and anxious.

I want to have an earnest dialogue with you and other new folks. I've agreed with things you've said on these forums before and because you ARE one of the 'new guys' and are in the ideal position to tell the community what things are like - I definitely want to keep discussing things with you to figure out how we can make things better.

BUT - I also have no idea if you're taking the time to make subtle, passive-aggressive jabs at various people in the thread or if you're literally just expressing frustration with how some folks outside of this conversation have acted because of how broad the paintstrokes are.

[Edit: Tweaked to make it clearer who I was referring to. :V]

[Edit 2: Just wanted to clarify one thing before it gets misunderstood: we ABSOLUTELY should talk about how established folks snubbing newbies is a problem. It's a negative thing that can really poison a community and if it's going on, it needs to stop.

However, if we do talk about that, we need to be wording it in a way that doesn't immediately make 80% of the established community members squint at their computers going "Wait. Who's he talking about? Did I accidentally piss someone off recently? Is he talking about me? Have I even MET this person in game?" I don't know if this will be seen as policing tone, but it makes it really stressful to have these conversations if you have no idea whether the other person actually genuinely holding out a hand and trying to have an earnest dialogue with you about how to improve things or if they're making thinly veiled jabs at you for reasons you don't really understand.]

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