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Marisa · **03-28-2015, 03:40 AM**

It honestly amazes me that despite the staggering amount of research that goes in to FFXIV (and WoW, too) the devs know so very little about medieval armor. FFXIV does a bit better than most, but they still show off their ignorance from time to time. For example, conventional game knowledge is that plate armor is extremely heavy. I could almost certainly see them justifying the video by saying "Well, he'd have to be quite strong to move like that!". But if we look at late-period plate armor, it barely weighs anything at all, while providing even moreÂ flexibility than what the guy from the video was wearing. Personally, I think this completely invalidates the idea that magic users can't wear armor. They'd have zero reason not to at least wear a cuirass and helmet.

Cato · **03-28-2015, 04:32 AM**

Ultimately it all comes down to balance. Could a powerful mage run around in full plate? Sure - it's more likely than many would claim. On the other hand it seriously risks a case of 'all the perks, none of the drawbacks' which, in all honestly, is one of the factors that turns me off interacting with someone if it feels like they're character isn't well rounded.

I suspect that's why the developers went down the route that they chose to. It's also worth noting that Eorzea isn't the real world so our realism doesn't necessarily equal Eorzea's realism.

Aduu Avagnar · **03-28-2015, 11:55 AM**

Paladins have the ability to cast white magic,and we see sultansworn use a wand whilst in their armour (chainmail tabards), so it is possible to cast at least some basic magic within armour.

Also, Dark Knight is another class that can cast magic whilst in heavy armour, though I reserve any judgements on that till we see the lore behind it.

Kellach Woods · **03-28-2015, 11:58 AM**

(03-28-2015, 11:55 AM)Nako Wrote: Paladins have the ability to cast white magic,and we see sultansworn use a wand whilst in their armour (chainmail tabards), so it is possible to cast at least some basic magic within armour.

Gladiator/Marauder can cast even more. Besides - since magic tends to come from focii in FFXIV I don't see why it would be impossible beyond a non-physics related explanation (aether doesn't like it maybe?)

Aduu Avagnar · **03-28-2015, 06:40 PM**

(03-28-2015, 11:58 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(03-28-2015, 11:55 AM)Nako Wrote: Paladins have the ability to cast white magic,and we see sultansworn use a wand whilst in their armour (chainmail tabards), so it is possible to cast at least some basic magic within armour.

Gladiator/Marauder can cast even more. Besides - since magic tends to come from focii in FFXIV I don't see why it would be impossible beyond a non-physics related explanation (aether doesn't like it maybe?)

The reason why I brought up the paladin was more a case of we see it done in game, by a person, so it is lore rather than mechanics based, I am not sure if we see another representation however.

Kellach Woods · **03-28-2015, 07:00 PM**

I don't think there's another representation of that phenomenon that'd be lore-based.

Aduu Avagnar · **03-28-2015, 07:43 PM**

Ah well, Roll on Dark Knight, and see if that addresses the Lore, writing it as an exception, if not, then plate is fair game for casters!

Kellach Woods · **03-28-2015, 07:57 PM**

I wouldn't be saying that immediately.

Absence of lore isn't fair game for anything. Just that you can wedge stuff in.

Aduu Avagnar · **03-28-2015, 10:02 PM**

(03-28-2015, 07:57 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: I wouldn't be saying that immediately.

Absence of lore isn't fair game for anything. Just that you can wedge stuff in.

I view grey areas as fair game, if taken logically. However, with all grey areas I find it best to leave yourself some wiggle room to allow for lore dumps

Klynzahr · **03-29-2015, 12:51 AM**

(03-27-2015, 12:45 PM)Caspar Wrote: Actually, as improbable as that sounds, you can swim in full plate, again, if it's properly fitted to you. It's just not as easy.Â

Swimming in mail, however, would be much harder. With plate you can at least swim a short distance, but I'd think swimming in mail would be extremely dangerous. It can be heavier and the weight is distributed on your shoulders, pulling you down. I think the idea that it was impossible to swim in plate armor came from the fact that most medieval men couldn't swim anyway. Not to mention, if you panicked and were wearing an additional 50 pounds you wanted to get out of immediately, it was nearly impossible to do so.

Well, I will admit that I am not actually aware of the accurate weight for either mail or plate armour. That being said, I do know from personal experience that 20lbs of non-bouyant mass will carry all but the very strongest of swimmers straight to the bottom.

When training as a lifegaurd, applicants are required to lift a 10lb brick or dumbbell from the bottom of a pool and carry it a distance of 2 meters. This task is so extremely exhausting that my instructor told us it had failed more lifegaurds than every other requirement combined. We students tried many different methods of lifting this thing, including over the shoulder, at the hip, and under the arm, none really made much difference... it still required weeks of practice to achieve.
Dazed

Â Â I may have suffered nightmares involving dumbbells and diving pools...

Now in my particular certification group there was one young man, who had very little trouble. He was the captain of our local water polo team, with two national titles under his belt, and had just received full scholarship to an American university. He had basically done nothing but swim since the age of six. One day to see what he could handle, we challenged him to carry two dumbbells (totaling 40lbs). We tied them together to leave him a free hand, and watched him lift the weight and carry it half way across the pool (about 5 meters), then his head began to go under, then he began bobbing and choking, before eventually dropping the weight next to the far wall. Even a national level athlete, trained specifically in water polo could not do it.

Now I realize that that a pair of dumbbells and a suit of armour have drastically different distributions of mass. However what is advantageous on land actually becomes a hindrance in the water. Due to the extra drag and resistance on your limbs, it becomes far more difficult to create buoyancy and propel yourself upwards.

Once through some particularly poor foresight, I found myself dumped into a chilly lake, while wearing a sweater, woolen socks, light rain pants, and a windbreaker. The bulk and distribution of that outfit would probably have been comparable to a set of half-plate or short chain coat. The entire outfit soaking wet, probably weighed all of two or three pounds. I was a lifeguard, a cross country runner and an open water swimmer. I knew what to do, I was in excellent physical shape, and I was still in deep trouble. Yes, I held my head above water until a nearby power boat could fish me out, but is was a very near call.

So based on my personal experience and observations, I would say that swimming in full plate should be impossible for most individuals. For those who could survive, it would be more a matter of desperately keeping your head up and trying to make it a few feet to land.Â Â

So there is my two three five gil on the subject of swimming in clothing and plate.

The questions of stealth and agility, I will leave to those more knowledgeable in the subject.

Wink

Seriphyn · **04-04-2015, 12:40 PM**

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it already, but why would a mage want to wear heavy armour like chainmail? Is there any pressing need? Why put additional fitness requirements on yourself?

Cato · **04-04-2015, 12:52 PM**

(04-04-2015, 12:40 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned it already, but why would a mage want to wear heavy armour like chainmail? Is there any pressing need? Why put additional fitness requirements on yourself?

I can understand the appeal. After all, it's only fair when a lot of 'melee' combatants end up indulging in a bit of magic on the side. My main concern is plausibility and balance - I'm wondering what sort of weaknesses exist for the characters out there that are physically strong, well armoured and capable of using powerful magic.

Khadan · **04-04-2015, 07:05 PM**

(04-04-2015, 12:40 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned it already, but why would a mage want to wear heavy armour like chainmail? Is there any pressing need? Why put additional fitness requirements on yourself?

If I was a mage standing in the back and flinging spells I'd be guaranteed that every sharpshooter in the area would find me the most tempting of targets. Having a nice layer of metal between your heart and incoming arrows could be quite the insurance policy.

Ryanti · **04-04-2015, 07:27 PM**

It would be wise for anyone facing misconceptions to always be armed with accurate data and resources to show people if they doubt your claims.

For example, my characters fights in plate sometimes, and he also utilizes a two-handed sword in combat. Every once in a while, people accuse me that my character can't even move in his own armor without wheezing, but also that I couldn't handle my sword worth shit.

Show Content

About Heavy Armor (Sourced from Metmuseum)4. Armor is extremely heavy and renders its wearer immobile.â€”Wrong.
An entire suit of field armor (that is, armor for battle) usually weighs between 45 and 55 lbs. (20 to 25 kg), with the helmet weighing between 4 and 8 lbs. (2 to 4 kg)â€”less than the full equipment of a fireman with oxygen gear, or what most modern soldiers have carried into battle since the nineteenth century. Moreover, while most modern equipment is chiefly suspended from the shoulders or waist, the weight of a well-fitted armor is distributed all over the body. It was not until the seventeenth century that the weight of field armor was greatly increased in order to render it bulletproof against ever more accurate firearms. At the same time, however, full armor became increasingly rare and only vital parts of the body, such as the head, torso, and hands, remained protected by metal plate.

The notion that the development of plate armor (completed by about 1420â€“30) greatly impaired a wearer's mobility is also untrue. A harness of plate armor was made up of individual elements for each limb. Each element in turn consisted of lames (strips of metal) and plates, linked by movable rivets and leather straps, and thus allowing practically all of the body's movements without any impairment due to rigidity of material. The widely held view that a man in armor could hardly move, and, once he had fallen to the ground, was unable to rise again, is also without foundation. On the contrary, historical sources tell us of the famous French knight Jean de Maingre (ca. 1366â€“1421), known as MarÃ©chal Boucicault, who, in full armor, was able to climb up the underside of a ladder using only his hands. Furthermore, there are several illustrations from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance depicting men-at-arms, squires, or knights, all in full armor, mounting horses without help or instruments such as ladders or cranes. Modern experiments with genuine fifteenth- and sixteenth-century armor as well as with accurate copies have shown that even an untrained man in a properly fitted armor can mount and dismount a horse, sit or lie on the ground, get up again, run, and generally move his limbs freely and without discomfort.

There are a few exceptional instances when armor was extremely heavy or did indeed render its wearer almost "locked" in a certain position, such as armor for certain types of tournaments. Tournament armor was made for very specific occasions and would have been worn only for limited periods of time. The man-at-arms would have mounted his steed with the aid of his squire or a small step, and the last pieces of his armor could then be donned after securely sitting in the saddle.

Swords are no different in misconception. In the real world, these things are much lighter than one would think. Hell, an average ZweihÃ¤nder (Which is an absolute monster of a sword) is maybe 6 pounds, and that's a 5-6 foot blade. Ryanti's 3 foot hand-and-a-half would be half that weight - it does not take nearly as much strength as people think to handle these blades. It has to do more with legs and hips than arms anyway.

Not saying my character could do flippy acrobatics, or won't get tired after a hour of doing physical activity. But you can be perfectly capable of free and flexible movement in such a setup.

Aduu Avagnar · **04-04-2015, 07:36 PM**

As for why? Nako trained in its use for the ocassion that he may be restricted in using his magic. He would rather be a contributing member of a group tgan simply a man with a stick.

That said, he hasn't worn it in the field often. The only times being the grindstone and, lo and behold, he had lost access to most of his aether.

As for balances, he can't match a master thaumaturgist in their ability to cast thaumaturgy. he also is more restricted even then to contact or near contact spells. As a personal preference.

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Yes, you can move in full Plate Harness

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