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C'kayah Polaali · **04-03-2015, 03:01 PM**

I think ultimately the biggest problem with fundraising events is that they're fundraising events.

As others have pointed out, things can get ugly when gil is involved. The canonical case of the date auction where one person makes millions and another makes nothing is a perfect example. We're all roleplayers because we love the creative, chaotic, artistic craft of making stories together. This is a fundamentally fuzzy thing, and wholly different than anything else in the game because it is unscored.

Think about it.

If you go run Ramuh, you can time your run parse your DPS or whatever you want to do and use that as a score with which to compare your performance to someone else. If you run Coil, you can compare which turn you run with other people. They're scores, and we love scores. Scores tap into our competitive impulses and our egos.

And what is gil but another score?

Erik has been running Royal Balls in Ul'dah for a couple of years. He works very hard, plans a nice event, and people enjoy them. He doesn't see a single gil from any of that, aside from any gil people donate to him to show their appreciation.

In comparison, are there any date auctions that don't actually take real gil? Would people go to a date auction if the money were all pretend? I mean, ICly C'kayah is about as wealthy as Otto Vann. We've both established this in our backstories and our RP and it's pretty well accepted by the people we RP with. If they were both at the same date auction, they could afford to pony up huge bids. OOCly, on the other hand, Otto is one rich m**********r, while I hover around half a million because I don't care about making gil. So going to a real date auction, there's no way C'kayah could afford to make the same sort of bids. Using real gil puts the date auction firmly into the category of "fourth wall, it is broken".

I'm not calling out balls and date auctions specifically, by the way. I'm only using them as examples.

Adding complexity to things is the fact that roleplaying takes time, and time (in MMOs as well as real life) is money. Every hour I spend roleplaying is an hour I'm not crafting, or running CT, any other of a number of things that bring tangible in-game benefits worth gil. We roleplayers are poorer than we would be if we played the same number of hours and didn't roleplay. At the same time, one of the biggest things that sets a roleplaying FC apart as "serious" is a house, and houses are huge ticket items in this game. Moreso on Balmung, where housing is in such short supply that any potential buyer has to factor in an additional cost to pay the previous holder of the house so that they can even have an opportunity to buy the house.

And so the date auctions. So the host events. So all the plethora of gil-making things that play to our strengths as roleplayers. They can get an up-and-coming new FC the gil for that small house. They can get serious roleplayers enough for a personal house. They can finance that upgrade by a bigger FC into a medium or large house.

I can assure you, it is a real draw. Tylwyth Narah, for instance, has been around for almost a year. For that whole time we've focused on medium-to-heavy RP as villains in other people's arcs, in bottoms-up (scriptless, extemporaneous) RP with other people, and just in general trying to improve things for everyone by providing part of the living atmosphere of the game.

This, of course, brings us nothing in gil.

We've been fortunate and managed to buy a small house, and we make use of it all the time. At the same time, we've got over 50 people in the group (with about 30 in the FC), so we're starting to think about moving into a medium. Grinding the gil for the small was tough, and it took us quite a while to get our RP legs back after taking all that time away from stories. The jump from a small to a medium would require at least the same effort.

It makes the idea of holding a date auction really, really tempting. Despite all the potential pitfalls. Despite the inevitable bad feelings and squicky interaction and the overall poke-it-with-a-stick response that it produces in some people.

And I think that's why you're seeing so many of them now. Not because people don't have the creativity to do other things as fundraisers (hell, if you want an RP event with us, just say something. We're sort of a low-level continuously running event), but because they're a proven way to RP your way to enough gil to make up for the gil deficit you've already accepted.

Melkire · **04-03-2015, 03:10 PM**

(04-03-2015, 03:01 PM)Ckayah Polaali Wrote: In comparison, are there any date auctions that don't actually take real gil? Would people go to a date auction if the money were all pretend?

Haven't <<DOVE>> and a few other FCs done this?

C'kayah Polaali · **04-03-2015, 03:20 PM**

(04-03-2015, 03:10 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-03-2015, 03:01 PM)Ckayah Polaali Wrote: In comparison, are there any date auctions that don't actually take real gil? Would people go to a date auction if the money were all pretend?

Haven't <<DOVE>> and a few other FCs done this?

I don't think so. The DOVE auction that Rock Shattermountain ran went to help fund their new house. If there are other FCs that have done date auctions that didn't use actual gil, I'd be really curious to know about them.

Erik Mynhier · **04-03-2015, 04:00 PM**

(04-03-2015, 03:01 PM)Ckayah Polaali Wrote: Erik has been running Royal Balls in Ul'dah for a couple of years. He works very hard, plans a nice event, and people enjoy them. He doesn't see a single gil from any of that, aside from any gil people donate to him to show their appreciation.

Show Content

Ok then back on topic and side-topic.

Topic: Ideas
How about a big game of hide and seek? One trusted person hides while everyone seeks them in a zone.

Side-Topic: Fundraiser Morality
The epic quest for gil. I am not above wanting/needing gil. Clio is the one with the discipline to farm mats and all for gil. My schedule doesn't allow it really. So even though I have never done a fundraiser due in part to the limitations of what my character would do. That doesn't mean I would not or won't in the future. My FC is growing, and is set to really jump in the coming weeks/month. We may outgrow our little home and if/when we do, its not my FC's responsibility to raise funds, its mine. That's something I feel is important but did not enforce like I should have before. I learned the lessons of trust and now make it known to my people that I will raise the funds for the house. So on that I understand the draw on someone like me that values this game but has real life as a constant, and far more important level. (read: real life is far more important then this game, but I still want to do well here.)

That said as Kayah pointed out money changes people and also I feel that as he described, it breaks a rule I use when RPing, the Justice League Rule.

"The what Rule?" you ask? Well a long time ago in comic books, Superman was well... Superman. And everyone else was lame compared to him. Batman, Wonderwoman, all of them were baby birds out of a nest compared to him. He had gotten so powerful it got to a point that no other comics were read. Why bother? Superman can do anything and these other characters are useless.

So the head of DC comics at the time instituted a rule, the writers had to clip Superman, give logical restrictions to his power and might through the Justice League. The rule stated that the writers had to figure out a way for each of the main members of the JL to beat Superman in a 1v1 fight. This is where you started getting stories about Batman having Kryptonite in his belt and things. The reason was the same as it is in RP, its no fun to have a few gods and the rest peeons. There can be power, but there also needs balance. Even if my character has a skill unique, it must allow for another to overpower them.

Now that whole comic history lesson to say this lol. Money messes with the balance. You fool with the RP when you allow cults of personality to determine the power of any given character, ie one make more then another in a date auction.

I see both but am unsure if there is anything to be done. People will always want/need gil, and for many a fundraiser is the best way, and for them a fun way. I guess we have to accept that different people like different things, and that its ok for us to have these differences as long as we have respect for those we disagree with be it on real life, or the morality of fundraisers in an mmo.

Berrod Armstrong · **04-03-2015, 04:30 PM**

Well, I suppose I can put my opinion in very simple terms.

I think that people should do and organize as they like, original and otherwise; those who are not interested, unimpressed or not keen on the notion have the option to not attend or participate.Â

That's just my mind. The opinions I've seen on here are rather interesting.

Blue · **04-03-2015, 04:35 PM**

I've always and only RPd gil/item transactions as pretend, without actually trading any in-game thing with other RPers, and that is how I shall keep doing it. I'm one of those who not only cringes at date auctions events, but at any auction event that actually asks for actual gil transactions. I don't know... I guess that since I consider RP as in-game content, and am a firm opponent to mercing and people who "sell wins" or "sell spots" to in-game raids and other game content, the comparison is probably what makes these things a no-no to me. We're all in there, we're all doing the same thing, we're all enjoying ourselves.. why should someone get profit off the other for that?

But again, that is just me. Happy gaming to whoever has a different view on this.

(Oh and yes, we did make one fundraising event with no gil transactions! It was the theater play Archrangers Return!)

And as far as activity goes, at least on my part, we (ToH) run one every week. We just don't post them on the calendar because it's MSQ RP events and we prefer to avoid griefing. We do put non-MSQ-related RP events on the calendar, and so far we've done only two of those, I admit. We don't do many of them because every time it's such a struggle to get even a handful of people to show up x_X .... we get discouraged easily and end up preferring to just do our own thing.

Faye · **04-03-2015, 04:38 PM**

(04-03-2015, 11:25 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: /em puts on his snooty dick-shaped hat.

So far, I'm seeing a lot of ideas from people on what they want to see in events, and besides the Murder Mystery thing, not a single person lifting a finger to actually do anything. As someone who's ostensibly an event planner somehow with the Grindstone, it's frustrating to read vague criticism that might be leveraged at the show I'm running by people who don't attend. Not showing up because you don't like the premise/theme/time/whatever is one thing, but going full hipster and saying you don't go because the Populars run it or attend is something entirely different.

/em removes the dick hat.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Quoted for maximum truth.

I also think C'kayah hit the nail on the head. I personally don't agree with villainizing people seeking to make money through role-play. Housing is immensely expensive in this game, especially now that all the plots are taking and you must pay to even get someone to relinquish their plot. For a heavy RP FC, the members typically spend more time role-playing than anything else. That's less time for farming, or crafting, or running dungeons--doing things that actually bring you gil. Role-play sadly doesn't earn you any gil, and yet it's what keeps our community here alive. And yet, the irony of it is that a group of heavy RPers have more use for a house than anything else, but more difficulty affording one. So why not do what they do--what they're good at--to make gil to ensure their RP will keep going strong for themselves and everyone else for whom they provide RP? And ultimately, in the end--no one is forced to donate their gil. The people who do willingly choose to pay both for the RP/IC reward as well as to simply help the cause OOC. Attacking the idea of fundraising RP events is essentially fighting a battle in the name of people who don't care for it to be fought to begin with. It's in the same vain as people getting mad about PvErs for "selling wins"--don't attack someone who's willing to sell something that someone else is willing to buy. If you try to make them stop, you're doing a disservice to seller and buyer alike. The victims you're defending are imaginary.

Aldotsk · **04-03-2015, 04:54 PM**

Honestly, it's a player's choice of whether they want to pay or not pay for the event. There are plenty of other events that won't even charge gil for participation, so my suggestion is to seek for those.Â

All of these events are really just optional thing for people to enjoy for themselves, but most of the fundraising purpose is to get FC housing or help them to make crafting gears and get materias for Zodiacs.

Most RP FCs that I've seen so far from their fundraising events have not done anything to "steal" gil from other players for their own personal advantage but to help out their FC to shape better.

Neither did Grindstone. Because you pretty much get your gil back if you win, but the entry fee is really small. You can literally earn 10k gil in a day or two.

Warren Castille · **04-03-2015, 04:56 PM**

(04-03-2015, 04:54 PM)Aldotsk Wrote: Neither did Grindstone. Because you pretty much get your gil back if you win, but the entry fee is really small. You can literally earn 10k gil in a day or two.

Grindstone hasn't charged an entry fee in months. It's a free one-in-whatever shot at 50k.

C'kayah Polaali · **04-03-2015, 05:00 PM**

(04-03-2015, 04:00 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: ...My FC is growing, and is set to really jump in the coming weeks/month. We may outgrow our little home and if/when we do, its not my FC's responsibility to raise funds, its mine.

Erik, I want to take exception to this. I think taking the position that you (as FC leader) are the only one responsible for raising funds for a house is both harmful to yourself as well as to the sense of community within your FC.

A house costs a tremendous amount of money. A small is perhaps kind of sort of reasonable for one very dedicated player, but a medium or large approaches an order of magnitude difference. If you take the attitude that you're responsible for raising that money, you'll both never get it done as well as burning yourself out.

At the same time, you're depriving your FC of something really valuable: the opportunity to feel invested in the FC. There are a lot of FCs out there where the individual members feel like replaceable parts in the leadership's thang. Now, I don't normally make a lot of value judgements, but I'll make one here: These sorts of FCs are bad. You don't want that. What you want instead is a FC where the people who join it feel like it's their FC. Where they feel like they're a part of something cool, and that they matter to it, and that it's success is partially because of their efforts. Fundraising for a house is a significant way to let everyone in the FC be a part of this. If the whole FC comes together over time and works up the money for a bigger house, then when you get that house they'll all feel proud of it. They helped make it a reality.

Khadan · **04-03-2015, 05:14 PM**

(04-03-2015, 04:30 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:
Well, I suppose I can put my opinion in very simple terms.

I think that people should do and organize as they like, original and otherwise; those who are not interested, unimpressed or not keen on the notion have the option to not attend or participate.Â

That's just my mind. The opinions I've seen on here are rather interesting.

Just kind of echoing Berrod here on this and to add in my own two gil.

The main thrust of this whole thing seems to be a case made about "whodunnit first" and then kind of add in some ideas so that "people can do other things without stepping on the 'firstcomers' mojo".Â

This is inherently flawed. There are no original ideas, no unique thoughts when it comes to fundraising. Everything has been done before and no one is special for having done it first or doing it 'better'.Â

In that vein people should do whatever they want to do. If you want to run a gil-paid fundraiser event then by all means, do so. The -only- thing that separates a good gil-paid event from a bad one is the amount of gil earned and even that is arguable; realistically it's whether or not people enjoyed it.

Anyway, if you've a mind to run a charity event, date auction, brothel service, paid stage play, treasure hunt, or what-have-you then you should do it and have the ability to do so no matter what 'popular opinion' actually is. Do what you want cuz a pirate is free, I guessÂ Thumbsup

Domri Blackblade · **04-03-2015, 05:25 PM**

(04-03-2015, 05:14 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Anyway, if you've a mind to run a charity event, date auction, brothel service, paid stage play, treasure hunt, or what-have-you then you should do it and have the ability to do so no matter what 'popular opinion' actually is. Do what you want cuz a pirate is free, I guessÂ

Just gonna echo this myself. It's your event, run it how you like. Don't worry about doing what others want you do do and stick to your vision.

Do what vision you have in mind. I play a character who is significantly poorer than I am and those that know me know how much I actually have sitting in my retainers. I never let people pay him in gil even though they have offered.

However, I personally prefer gil-tied events because I find sometimes when there is no restriction, you have people throwing around hundreds of millions of million whatever currency like it's nothing and I feel like it takes away from the weight of the economy. I try to keep my IC economics a little believable based on vendor prices and all that.

Then again, Domri is almost never at any of these events anyway, so I don't have to worry about it, but both are completely valid.

Faye · **04-03-2015, 05:26 PM**

I don't think "whodunnit first" was ever brought up in this thread, save for people taking away from the actual idea of it. It's wholly irrelevant. Date auctions have been a thing for a while now--on Balmung, in XIV, in MMO's, in real life. It's not about innovation or originality. To go back and quote what Sastra said, "What mostly matters to me is that there isn't 5x the same event by different people in a row." The question isn't, "Has it been done before?" but rather, "Have there already been five of these this month?" I believe there's a difference before doing an event that's been done before as opposed to jumping on a bandwagon.

(04-03-2015, 04:00 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: We may outgrow our little home and if/when we do, its not my FC's responsibility to raise funds, its mine. That's something I feel is important but did not enforce like I should have before. I learned the lessons of trust and now make it known to my people that I will raise the funds for the house.

I'm on the same boat as C'kayah with this. One person cannot support a whole group! I know because I used to feel the same, and frankly, HoD got nowhere because of it. You'll run yourself ragged and in such actually be there less for your FC. People like to help, and they should be pulling their own weight! I know it's tempting to say, "It's my FC so all the work is my responsibility," but at the end of the day you can't keep it all running smoothly on your own. I have some great officers now who remind me of that when I slip back into that line of thinking myself. Blush

Faye · **04-03-2015, 05:32 PM**

(04-03-2015, 05:25 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: However, I personally prefer gil-tied events because I find sometimes when there is no restriction, you have people throwing around hundreds of millions of million whatever currency like it's nothing and I feel like it takes away from the weight of the economy. I try to keep my IC economics a little believable based on vendor prices and all that.

This is why I've always been iffy on things involving "IC only gil" (barring some small sums for things like a cheap entrance fee, or payment for a drink). I think it makes more sense and is less hassle to either not involve gil, or use real gil. A date auction using only IC gil, for example, could easily involve an endless bidding war of "who has the most imaginary currency?" that will surely end in some IC discord, OOC arguments, and a lot of time wasted.

Khadan · **04-03-2015, 05:40 PM**

(04-03-2015, 05:26 PM)Faye Wrote: I don't think "whodunnit first" was ever brought up in this thread, save for people taking away from the actual idea of it. It's wholly irrelevant. Date auctions have been a thing for a while now--on Balmung, in XIV, in MMO's, in real life. It's not about innovation or originality. To go back and quote what Sastra said, "What mostly matters to me is that there isn't 5x the same event by different people in a row." The question isn't, "Has it been done before?" but rather, "Have there already been five of these this month?" I believe there's a difference before doing an event that's been done before as opposed to jumping on a bandwagon.

see that doesn't actually matter. If people want to do five date auctions in a row then that's their prerogative; not yours. The community doesn't need to be told what to do or how to do it. It doesn't even need to be suggested at, either. If everyone does their own thing then none of it really matters. If five date auctions happen on one weekend then fine! Social Darwinism will settle it out accordingly.

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Fundraising RP Events

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