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Seriphyn · **04-15-2015, 04:16 AM**

For my latest instigation, I wanted to bring up a topic which bothers me mildly. Not quite the promised topic about the possible whitewashing of Miqo'te tribal lore, alas. This particular topic concerns playing characters who are not the native race of the nation they hail from.Â

Yes, immediately, we can cite examples of exceptional cases existing within the lore. That's fine; I'm not denying the existence of such cases. As I've said before, it's not a law of physics, so it's not impossible. Instead, rather than impossible it's just be very unlikely at most, or generally considered strange in-universe. Again, fine. The argument is from a character-building perspective; not questioning the validity but the authenticity.

Let's take the egregious, caricature example of the Miqo'te Dragoon. My immediate response is that players who construct these characters are a textbook case of wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They want to play a pretty cat race and a badass spearman famed within the Final Fantasy mythos. I might be wrong, hence why I'm creating this thread to begin with!

But my issue is this; if I wanted to play an authentic English Knight, I would play a fair-skinned Briton. If I wanted to play an authentic Samurai, I would play a Japanese gentleman. If I wanted to play an authentic Maasai chieftain, I would play a dark-skinned Kenyan. Similarly, if I wanted to play an authentic Ishgardian Dragoon, I would play an Elezen or Hyur. If I wanted to play an authentic Ala Mhigan, I would play a Highlander. And so on. I don't believe in the argument "It makes it more interesting", because I don't believe that an exotic race or exotic occupation is needed to make your character interesting (it is your character's character which makes your character interesting!). Moreover, if being a race that defies that nation's norm is intended to make the character more interesting, why is it always Miqo'te?

While citing examples of exceptions existing in real-life history to the cited real-life analogies is fine, that doesn't change the reality of the fact that these cultures exist accordingly because of a majority demographic. Nations like Ishgard are explicitly portrayed as being Elezen-dominant, so why not play an Elezen? You can play the exception, fine, but is there a reason you did not pick the main race? That is the question I am putting forward!Â

Ultimately, this doesn't really change whether or not I'm going to roleplay with someone or not, because I roleplay with everyone regardless. If someone wants to play a pretty cat and be something, then, well, go ahead! I've heard stories of people being bothered in whispers about lorebreaking by random people not even roleplaying with them, but just in the general area, and I really want to keep my name far from that sort of behavior. In the face of the above exceptions, my character will react accordingly, but otherwise? I still love all of you!

Bryn · **04-15-2015, 04:19 AM**

Meena · **04-15-2015, 04:38 AM**

*grabs popcorn*

However, yes I completely agree. This is a setting where there aren't many if at all, any exceptions to the rules put in place by city states or cultural groups.Â
It bothers me greatly when I see people claiming to be a ... I don't know:
Miqo'te half Magitek garlean-doman.

._.

I Â just stick to my ignorant Doman and Eorzean based characters for this reason.
I think it comes down to the fact people want to have a unique character, when making a too unique character can result in lore breaking and unbelievable feats.

But this also plays into my role playing of racial tensions. Most people don't do this either which is mildly confusing as they are obvious in the world setting.

Nalin · **04-15-2015, 05:18 AM**

Raises hand slowly. Yes hello, ICly Miqo'te Dragoon/resident lurker here. : D;

To be honest, when I picked up the game for the first time; I had no intention of playing a catboy; but had every intention of leveling a dragoon because that is my favorite class throughout the entire Final Fantasy franchise. And, when I started playing I had no prior knowledge of Ishgard or any of FFXIV's lore save for: Omfg its such a badly designed game. I also expected to quit the game two months after launch.
I ended up picking a Keeper catboy because I love space and all things night time. So. Me and my love for moons + dragoons + no knowledge of pre-existing lore = Nalin Frostclaw the Miqo'te Dragoon. Literally. That was pretty much it. His name, species and class was all based on what I wanted to play. XD

It wasn't until after I got to Coerthas for the first time in game(Thus level 30) that I learned of Ishgard and its inhabitants. And I immediately fell in love with everything related to it that I dove into every lore thread I could find related to Ishgard to learn any and all things about the city and its history. From that, I began piecing Nalin's story together until I was able to get what he is now.

Whiiiich is a Miqo'te who's Coerthas-residing clan was stomped by a dragon; and he was then was adopted by an Ishgardian(Much to that Ishgardian's dismay as he didn't even want the kid at first; but details, details--) and learned to be a dragoon from him. And is why he has a more "human" name, and why he acts less like a tribal miqo'te, more like a city boy.
I also RP Nalin as a Dragoon still very much learning the ropes; his entire existence focuses around him taking up jobs to become stronger and wiser. He fumbles around a lot and is pretty much an idiot with spikey armor and a lance. He's kinda a self-proclaimed Dragoon; as he killed a dragon and his father/mentor gave him armor for it. Ishgard probably doesn't even know he exists.
Which is fine by him, he just wanted to be a Dragoon because he figured they were the best at killing dragons. Which is what he wants to do. Because his original family got squashed by one.

tl;dr: I made a cat Dragoon with a funky name cause I wanted to! Then I tried to make him make sense with lore afterward because I found out there was a huge established lore after I made him and kept playing the game. And that's pretty much all there is to it. XD

Lekka Meyren · **04-15-2015, 06:06 AM**

As others have stated almost perfectly with memes... Here we go again.
I'm going to simply ask: Do they need a reason, really? I mean as long as they're not making up their own lore wildly and deciding to be a vampire tribe of Mi'qote Ishgardians who secretly run the place.. Why should they need to justify themselves.

I agree with all exceptions obviously, if you're just out to completely break lore to play your own thing; then expect people to take issue simply because they don't want their character influenced by things that seem inherently "wrong" in their character arcs.

...But as a minority in real life I have a little bit of a hard time not having some cynicism around this line of thinking. Gods know we have enough of an IRL problem of the majority experience being expected and all minority experiences being doubted or pushed into neat little boxes to fit the narrative.

Tl;DR: If it's not ruining your character arc in some way and it's not completely cross with the lore - It's highly likely you're overthinking it from the perspective of a majority experience.
It's not that freaking unlikely that some mi'qote walked up north at some stage.

Meena · **04-15-2015, 06:40 AM**

(04-15-2015, 06:06 AM)Lekka Meyren Wrote: As others have stated almost perfectly with memes... Here we go again.
I'm going to simply ask: Do they need a reason, really? I mean as long as they're not making up their own lore wildly and deciding to be a vampire tribe of Mi'qote Ishgardians who secretly run the place.. Why should they need to justify themselves.

I agree with all exceptions obviously, if you're just out to completely break lore to play your own thing; then expect people to take issue simply because they don't want their character influenced by things that seem inherently "wrong" in their character arcs.

...But as a minority in real life I have a little bit of a hard time not having some cynicism around this line of thinking. Gods know we have enough of an IRL problem of the majority experience being expected and all minority experiences being doubted or pushed into neat little boxes to fit the narrative.

Tl;DR: If it's not ruining your character arc in some way and it's not completely cross with the lore - It's highly likely you're overthinking it from the perspective of a majority experience.
It's not that freaking unlikely that some mi'qote walked up north at some stage.

I don't see how being a minority IRL plays into this - I mean, this is not a realistic setting. Its a setting with dragons and thousands of years of racial tensions and legitimate reasons for exclusion.

I understand there are issues with people who begin to play the game without any knowledge, my questioning is why don't those players or peoples go about correcting their lore or characters to fit the setting. Especially those who have been playing for a while now.

Sure you aren't harming anyone - but why disregard the work the lore devs and such have put into the game by working in to be a special snowflake?

Chris Ganale · **04-15-2015, 07:16 AM**

(04-15-2015, 04:16 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: I've heard stories of people being bothered in whispers about lorebreaking by random people not even roleplaying with them

Can confirm, does happen. And it wasn't even to my miqo fake!DRG.

(04-15-2015, 04:38 AM)Meena Wrote: It bothers me greatly when I see people claiming to be a ... I don't know:
Miqo'te half Magitek garlean-doman.

So someone can't have a miqo'te, a race which originally immigrated from across the seas in the first place, have lived in Doma, only to be conscripted by the Garlean Empire due to the area's subjugation?

Meena · **04-15-2015, 07:41 AM**

(04-15-2015, 07:16 AM)Chris Ganale Wrote:
(04-15-2015, 04:16 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: I've heard stories of people being bothered in whispers about lorebreaking by random people not even roleplaying with them

Can confirm, does happen. And it wasn't even to my miqo fake!DRG.

(04-15-2015, 04:38 AM)Meena Wrote: It bothers me greatly when I see people claiming to be a ... I don't know:
Miqo'te half Magitek garlean-doman.

So someone can't have a miqo'te, a race which originally immigrated from across the seas in the first place, have lived in Doma, only to be conscripted by the Garlean Empire due to the area's subjugation?

We have 0 confirmation that there are even Miqo'te in other countries but this one. Â We only know for sure that the races in Doma are most likely limited to: garlean Citizens (being predominately Hyur and Elezen of conquered countries and areas. one miqo'te and one lalafell. There was also ONE Roe mentioned who adopted a garlean naming convention. But other than that. Hyur.) and Au ra and Domans (hyurs). Â I'm not saying you cant be whatever you want, I'm just saying the integrity of the lore is at stake when you move too far away from what we have confirmation of.

We literally don't -know- if other countries have Miqo'te. But we know their ancestors (thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago) crossed the frozen sea to this continent and settled here.

Fifth Umbral Era - Element: Ice
Less than 4000 (YA) more than 3000(YA) --- Ancestors of the Miqo'te tribes travel across the frozen seas following food.

The ones that remained probably couldn't feed themselves hence the migrations in the first place. When we get confirmation, sure - thats cool. But we don't have it yet.

Warren Castille · **04-15-2015, 07:50 AM**

I think the reason that catdrg gets so much scrutiny is because we know that Ishgard is xenophobic as fuck, and that Dragoons are a symbol of their nation's might.

In-game description Wrote:Of all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon.

Hm. This is gonna get reeeaaal awkward as I show my lack of world culture.

Real-world France has a reputation for being similarly xenophobic. Preliminary glances at wikipedia of all places gives us this link detailing an "award" given out to prominent French folks who embrace - gasp! - the English language. It's similar to the Razzie Awards, only instead of being fun at the sake of bad movies, it's mocking someone for not being French enough. It has been brought to my attention, however, that this is far from the prevailing national attitude and is probably not the best example.

Similarly, this link discusses how internally, France is also phobic against itself; speaking a dialect or language other than French in school is grounds for punishment.

It's not too far-fetched to think that Ishgard would be as accepting to "lesser races" as the French are to fat, cheeseburger eating Americans butchering their language.

And then letting that guy join their special forces.

Meena · **04-15-2015, 07:54 AM**

(04-15-2015, 07:50 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I think the reason that catdrg gets so much scrutiny is because we know that Ishgard is xenophobic as fuck, and that Dragoons are a symbol of their nation's might.

In-game description Wrote:Of all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon.

Hm. This is gonna get reeeaaal awkward as I show my lack of world culture.

Real-world France has a reputation for being similarly xenophobic. Preliminary glances at wikipedia of all places gives us this link detailing an "award" given out to prominent French folks who embrace - gasp! - the English language. It's similar to the Razzie Awards, only instead of being fun at the sake of bad movies, it's mocking someone for not being French enough.

Similarly, this link discusses how internally, France is also phobic against itself; speaking a dialect or language other than French in school is grounds for punishment.

It's not too far-fetched to think that Ishgard would be as accepting to "lesser races" as the French are to fat, cheeseburger eating Americans butchering their language.

And then letting that guy join their special forces.

All of that. Yes. That.

Kellach Woods · **04-15-2015, 07:56 AM**

(04-15-2015, 07:16 AM)Chris Ganale Wrote: So someone can't have a miqo'te, a race which originally immigrated from across the seas in the first place, have lived in Doma, only to be conscripted by the Garlean Empire due to the area's subjugation?

If you want to be technical about it, other than the Elezen every single race in Eorzea immigrated from across the seas.

Hyur : Surrounding continents and islands
Elezen : Sole inhabitants of Eorzea
Lalafell : Islands of the South Seas
Miqo'te : Walked across the seas in the Age of Endless Frost
Roegadyn : Not mentioned but assumed to not be natives due to Elezen description.

* * *

Not gonna touch what Warren brought up with a ten-foot pole. Too personal.

Warren Castille · **04-15-2015, 08:03 AM**

(04-15-2015, 07:56 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Not gonna touch what Warren brought up with a ten-foot pole. Too personal.

I just hope folks realize my ignorance isn't born of malice.

Gegenji · **04-15-2015, 08:06 AM**

(04-15-2015, 07:41 AM)Meena Wrote: We only know for sure that the races in Doma are most likely limited to: garlean Citizens (being predominately Hyur and Elezen of conquered countries and areas. one miqo'te and one lalafell. There was also ONE Roe mentioned who adopted a garlean naming convention. But other than that. Hyur.) and Au ra and Domans (hyurs). Â I'm not saying you cant be whatever you want, I'm just saying the integrity of the lore is at stake when you move too far away from what we have confirmation of.

But if there is one miqo'te from Doma, couldn't that mean that there could be more? By having even one of another race there, you are technically setting a precedent for others to also be from there. There is confirmation that, yes, there is a Miqo'te and a Lalafell that came from Doma - not to mention that there was confirmed trade with Doma and Limsa, which could set the scene for a Sea Wolf finding the place charming and settling down. As long as you can explain it in a reasonable fashion (my "Answer the How" approach), should it really be that big of a deal?

The main reason I mention this was because my second ever RP in FFXIV (and in an MMO in general) was almost derailed by another player telling me that Chachan couldn't be a Lalafell from Doma. The player's character itself was rather antagonistic as well, but that led to some interesting RP and several interesting folks coming to the little Lalafell's rescue (Dogberry and Yangh shoutout!). The tells that sought to tell me that I was bad and should feel bad for trying to RP a Doman Lalafell, though, that's what really got to me.

It's not a fun thing to experience.

Virella · **04-15-2015, 08:06 AM**

(04-15-2015, 07:50 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I think the reason that catdrg gets so much scrutiny is because we know that Ishgard is xenophobic as fuck, and that Dragoons are a symbol of their nation's might.

In-game description Wrote:Of all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon.

Hm. This is gonna get reeeaaal awkward as I show my lack of world culture.

Real-world France has a reputation for being similarly xenophobic. Preliminary glances at wikipedia of all places gives us this link detailing an "award" given out to prominent French folks who embrace - gasp! - the English language. It's similar to the Razzie Awards, only instead of being fun at the sake of bad movies, it's mocking someone for not being French enough.

Similarly, this link discusses how internally, France is also phobic against itself; speaking a dialect or language other than French in school is grounds for punishment.

It's not too far-fetched to think that Ishgard would be as accepting to "lesser races" as the French are to fat, cheeseburger eating Americans butchering their language.

And then letting that guy join their special forces.

That said, we have Lucia, who is Garlean.

Ishgard is very, very, very closed off, but it appears everyone can get in their good graces and work themselves up into their society. BUT. I would say these are very much exceptions, and you really, really need to work hard to get at those places. They wouldn't just train the first person passing by to become a dragoon. Oh no, I imagine they got to dedicate themselves for years to Ishgard before even sure a thing is considered.

Not to mention I've got this personal headcanon that becoming a Dragoon takes years and years and years of training, starting from a young age, and their powers are shrouded in mystery, even to other Ishgardians.

However, I'm really not fond of those exceptions, I'd sooner see people who fit in line with the majority of the NPCs. I won't shun people for roleplaying something what wouldn't fit their race/job combo, but I will raise a few eyebrows, and let my character react accordingly.

Kellach Woods · **04-15-2015, 08:11 AM**

(04-15-2015, 08:03 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I just hope folks realize my ignorance isn't born of malice.

Nah - relationships between France and the overall Francophonie have always been done in an overall colonialist sense and honestly feel that concentrating on their acceptance of English as a way to describe their opinions on other races is not only reductive but a bad example taking that into account.

'cause typically if you're willing to learn the language they'll bend over backwards to help from what I remember. It's if you're unwilling to do so that things get awkward (also France's adoption rate of English words in their vocab is far, FAR higher than in the other places and it's only now starting to worry people who actually matter, rather than a bunch of reactionaries).

However I ain't French, just a dude who's had their entire culture shat on by 'em before.

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Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

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