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Melkire · **04-16-2015, 05:29 PM**

Oh, I'm not saying don't throw knives. I'm not even saying it's not possible.

I'm just saying that someone in, say, Varlet's Hauberk, Gauntlets, and Sabatons is going to have a very hard time selling Death Blossom as an in-character thing.

ChewableMorphine · **04-16-2015, 06:06 PM**

(04-16-2015, 04:26 PM)Mamushi Wrote:
(04-16-2015, 04:10 PM)â˜†Flynt Reddardâ˜† Wrote: ...But then you have WAR's using Death Blossom, a 4-500 pound tank leaping into the air hurling knives everywhere.

I can cross-class Death Blossom? I CAN CROSS CLASS DEATH BLOSSOM!!!

THANK YOU ANIME MAN! You have made me a happy MRD!

I hate Gwannes for giving me that goddamn name

ChewableMorphine · **04-16-2015, 06:07 PM**

(04-16-2015, 05:29 PM)Melkire Wrote: Oh, I'm not saying don't throw knives. I'm not even saying it's not possible.

I'm just saying that someone in, say, Varlet's Hauberk, Gauntlets, and Sabatons is going to have a very hard time selling Death Blossom as an in-character thing.

I like to laugh at the thought of the Flame Elites or Darklight set doing Death Blossom.

Kyrrae L'minia · **04-16-2015, 06:50 PM**

Well actually, conjury mechanically just requires aether. Same with thaumaturgy. However if you expend your own aether, you'll quickly wear yourself out, causing sickness and worst case scenario, death eventually. Conjurers learn to communicate with nature to draw aether from nature, whilst a thaumaturge pulls massive amounts of aether from the world around them to fuel their own spells. Both conjurers and thaumaturges require foci to cast complex spells however, which is why both use wands/staves (okay, blms use a cudgel type weapon, but it serves the same function). Devs have told us that cnj/thm whm/blm are two sides of the same coin.

(04-16-2015, 05:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Re: cross-class CNJ and THM skills

Doesn't conjury require nature to channel through? Similarly, thaumaturgy requires a gem to cast through. I'm 99% sure that my Excalibur isn't made out of wood, and the gem on the hilt is probably not cutting it for blizzard spells.

My thoughts? Cross-class is fluff and Game Mechanic only.

Temmi · **04-16-2015, 06:57 PM**

Thanks for all the replies. Really appreciate it! I think I'll be taking the approach that cross class abilities are completely viable, as long as there's an explanation behind why they can tap that art (something better than "well I was taught this").

Warren Castille · **04-16-2015, 07:24 PM**

(04-16-2015, 05:29 PM)Melkire Wrote: Oh, I'm not saying don't throw knives. I'm not even saying it's not possible.

I'm just saying that someone in, say, Varlet's Hauberk, Gauntlets, and Sabatons is going to have a very hard time selling Death Blossom as an in-character thing.

My specifically: The guy is holding a two-handed axe, leaps into the air, double fists a dozen knives, and then redraws the greataxe. Right.

Kyrrae L'minia · **04-16-2015, 07:29 PM**

Maybe... he's super duper duper dextrous...and shoots knives out of his hands? xD

Val · **04-16-2015, 07:33 PM**

(04-16-2015, 07:29 PM)Kyrrae L Wrote: Maybe... he's super duper duper dextrous...and shoots knives out of his hands? xD

Well, I have seen people that RP robots.

Edvyn · **04-16-2015, 07:47 PM**

I just play off cross class abilities as the class being able to do something that's just like what another class does, but isn't necessarily tied to that class. Some cases (like death blossom) are tricky to explain, but I figure cross class abilities are basically just one class using its own skills to do what another class does. Let's take BLM (the only class I really play) as an example:

Raging Strikes - wizard gets angry, makes bigger boom
Quelling Strikes - wizard casts spells in a sneakier fashion/starts crying so enemies feel sorry for them
Eye for an Eye - we can ward ourselves, we can ward others! it's like apocatastasis!
Virus - spooky evil curse, lore says we can do those
Physick - wizard band-aids

Kyrrae L'minia · **04-16-2015, 07:51 PM**

Virus however, along with many other arcanist abilites, is actually a temporary sickness brought on by aether. Always been curious how folk rp virus/miasma/bio/bio2 though. Maybe as tweaking the other person's aether for a short time, before their aether can recover?

Chris Ganale · **04-16-2015, 08:03 PM**

Ganale was in a fight once against his employer/love-interest. She was rather fond of throwing bio, miasma, and virus on him while he was fighting her summons. Lots of vomited blood and nearly drowning from blood filling his lungs.

Berserk is a lifesaver.

Dasair · **04-16-2015, 08:18 PM**

(04-16-2015, 06:50 PM)Kyrrae Lminia Wrote: Well actually, conjury mechanically just requires aether. Same with thaumaturgy. However if you expend your own aether, you'll quickly wear yourself out, causing sickness and worst case scenario, death eventually. Conjurers learn to communicate with nature to draw aether from nature, whilst a thaumaturge pulls massive amounts of aether from the world around them to fuel their own spells. Both conjurers and thaumaturges require foci to cast complex spells however, which is why both use wands/staves (okay, blms use a cudgel type weapon, but it serves the same function). Devs have told us that cnj/thm whm/blm are two sides of the same coin.

Bolded the thing I'm mostly replying to here.

But this isn't quite right, and I'm only being a nitpicky butthead because I've built some stuff up for my silly nerd character around the distinction, as well as because I think it's neat to consider the differences in regards to cross-classing. Thaumaturge specifically uses their internal Aether, and draws from themselves. Not everyone can do it, as shown from the THM questlines, because they don't have the internal Aether reserves for it. Thus they might end up dying if they try.

Black Mages however, draw from the world around them. ... And actually destroy the world in the process. They literally suck up the energy of their immediate environment and repurpose it for their own casting. This was, if I recall, developed mostly because casters using their own Aether alone couldn't manage to pull enough from themselves to have the extreme power they desired, thus Shantotto, an 'extremely powerful sorceress' had developed (or brought back) the method of Black Magery, which uses the Aether from the world.

Conjurers can use internal Aether too, as you said, but yeah,

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Thus, they are encouraged to essentially commune with nature, and use 'borrowed power', more or less. So while it can be done differently, it's not recommended. Given the 'right' way to cast Conjury, it's quite possible that you really don't necessarily need those 'internal Aether reserves' that Thaumaturge requires.

Main point is that Thaumaturgey and Black Magic aren't the same thing, and don't draw from the same places. Thaumaturgey is the self, and Black Magic is the world (possibly in addition to the self). But Conjury and Thaumaturgey have the potential to be drawn from the same place (being one's self), just... it's not actually recommended or the best idea.

I actually have a character who practices Thaumaturgey and Conjury, however, his Conjury is pretty terrible / lacking. It's not that he doesn't know the theories behind the spells, but it's heavily due to him using his own Aether to cast more than anything. Which isn't the way to go with Conjury. I've taken it that using certain spells (like Cure for instance) would take a heavy toll on someone not calling on nature to give them a hand, and even if he does pull a couple of 'wrong' spells off, he can't keep it up for very long.

Kyrrae L'minia · **04-16-2015, 08:35 PM**

I would have to heavily disagree on your interpretation of THM. It works the same way as BLM, difference being that BLM pulls a lot more. The reason the THM questline puts an emphasis on your personal mana amount is because THM requires the most base mana to cast destructive spells.

Perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant. THM/BLM doesn't just pull energy from the world around them and use it, that's ACN department. What they do is they use their internal reserves, then pull from the earth around them to refill, then expel it again. They're a capacitor in essence. They pull in, push out, pull in, push out.

The reason why BLM nearly destroyed the world, along with WHM is because using more powerful spells means using more aether. They were pulling aether faster than it could naturally dissipate back into the Lifestream.

Kyrrae L'minia · **04-16-2015, 08:58 PM**

Thought I'd add on to clarify that aether used for spells takes time to dispel back into the lifestream. This is why the astral era was needed, to give time for the aether to absorb back into the lifestream. And why since then, BLM and WHM has been primarily banned. You can have a few members using that much power, but if more than a few, you have more aether coming out than is going back in.

Also in reference to THM/BLM being the same concept, keep in mind that allÂ jobs are simply more complex derivations of their base class. They keep the same types of action, but with advanced techniques tacked on. Examine for yourself and you'll see. Smile

Also, a few cures now and then won't hurt anyone. It's the constant use that becomes an issue. However, for a thaumaturge, they could cast cure like no tomorrow if they like, as long as they take the time to refill. The issue with cnj is that they don't have any kind of spell to recover their own mana. Only whm does, and that's an advanced secret technique, like all whm, and it still takes time.

Dasair · **04-16-2015, 09:27 PM**

Spoilering this because it's veering off-topic.

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Thaumaturge vs Black Mage and Conjury stuff

(04-16-2015, 08:35 PM)Kyrrae Lminia Wrote: I would have to heavily disagree on your interpretation of THM. It works the same way as BLM, difference being that BLM pulls a lot more. The reason the THM questline puts an emphasis on your personal mana amount is because THM requires the most base mana to cast destructive spells.

Perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant. THM/BLM doesn't just pull energy from the world around them and use it, that's ACN department. What they do is they use their internal reserves, then pull from the earth around them to refill, then expel it again. They're a capacitor in essence. They pull in, push out, pull in, push out.

(04-16-2015, 08:58 PM)Kyrrae Lminia Wrote: Also in reference to THM/BLM being the same concept, keep in mind that allÂ jobs are simply more complex derivations of their base class. They keep the same types of action, but with advanced techniques tacked on. Examine for yourself and you'll see.

Bolded what I'm talking about again.

So I'm not actually saying you're wrong about this, but I'm actually really curious where you got the whole Thaumaturge does a 'push/pull' in taking Aether from the world to 'recharge' thing. I just read through a lot of the quest dialogue, and nowhere is that mentioned; only that Thaumaturge's Aether comes from within (I've got a buttload of quest quotes about that) and that the way to replenish it is either taking a break, or drinking Ether, all with emphasis on the self. It's interesting, but I just don't remember it and can't find it anywhere. Was this a 1.0 thing? Where did you get this information, or is it just your own interpretation?

Also, yeah, Black Mage is essentially taking an additional source beyond just the self, and is somewhat of a branch from what Thaumaturgey is capable of, and I agree that Black Magery is a lot more extreme. But I still don't remember anywhere I've seen that Thaumaturgey takes Aether from the world.

Edit: I can't speak for Arcanist, as I've been pretty curious where their Aether comes from too; I'd only gotten vague ideas, and nothing concrete on origin, other than the geometries. I'd always thought it was more from the self too, but I could be wrong.

(04-16-2015, 08:58 PM)Kyrrae Lminia Wrote: Also, a few cures now and then won't hurt anyone. It's the constant use that becomes an issue. However, for a thaumaturge, they could cast cure like no tomorrow if they like, as long as they take the time to refill. The issue with cnj is that they don't have any kind of spell to recover their own mana. Only whm does, and that's an advanced secret technique, like all whm, and it still takes time.

The Cure thing is a personal character choice, and I have a lot more reasons than just solely that for why it doesn't sit well with Xavarian. Sometimes problems compound onto other problems. It's mostly interpretation on my end, but I feel like Conjury and Thaumaturgey have some fundamental differences in the way they use and channel Aether, so I merely reflect that in RP based on the Conjury lore I've seen.

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Lore on cross class abilities

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