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TheLastCandle · **04-17-2015, 03:05 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:49 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: (Almost missed this.) Lucia has a Garlean third eye identical in appearance to Cid and Nael's. Why give her that facial model if she's not Garlean? It's not like there aren't plenty of normal Hyur models they could've used? I think SE didn't count on a Lalafellin player looking up under her circlet.

A bit off topic, but my first thought given Lucia's proportions and rounded ears was that she was a rare example of half-elezen. I didn't consider that she might be Garlean, but it makes sense.

Personally, all arguments aside, I'm going to be very motivated to explore Ishgardian lands and drink up every line of dialogue I can. There is simply too little information available in ARR on most everything being discussed here in regards to Ishgard.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 03:06 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:01 PM)Kayllen Wrote: We would still have great cause to speak of it, actually. Evidence is what causes discussion to occur with actual logical debate. Without evidence you're just arguing conjecture and that ain't no way to be, mayun.

So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.

If I can flip the script for a second - do we have any proof that there isn't racism? Or at the very least, none of the discrimination that - as stated by the lore team in the provided quotes - is quite common in Eorzea as a whole? What proof is there that Ishgard bucks the trend of the provided truth of races not liking each other that is so different from the rest of Eorzea?

I'm just saying that - if the idea that Ishgard has a racist society is conjecture due to lack of evidence, then so too is saying that they aren't without also providing evidence.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:06 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:50 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.
You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

That... what?

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

And again, for the third time now, because $race 'in general' dislikes or has had troubles with $other-race, does not -IN ANY WAY- define systematic CULTURAL racism in the nation that is at the heart of the current discussion. There is -no evidence- of this. If you would like to continue to assert otherwise please provide proofs.
Did you miss how -none- of the lore answer ever, ever mentions a difficulty in biology? It -clearly states, AND I BOLDED FOR YOU, -cultural- differences. CULTURAL. It can't be any clearer. They even make a point of MAKING A 3.0 QUEST, IMPLYING ISHGARDIAN ISSUE, about a cross-racial couple.

You mean, how elezen and hyur have been in bloody racial wars?

What is more proof than Lore answers from lore peoples?

(04-17-2015, 02:34 PM)Kage Wrote:
Quote:Lore about conflicts between Hyur and Elezen?
-Tension between races because bloody history between them. They never made up but put aside their issues. They don't really like each. They just put up with each other because common enemy. In beginning of the 6AE the Elezen migrated back in, then hyur migrated and tried to take Elezen lands. Clashing and moving apart - gets ingrained in their society. Lalafell will rise on occasion and attack other races, for example. In 3.0 we will have half-races. But they are treated different. Quest will come to explain.

Quote:Cross-racial?
-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more â€œprogressive.â€ Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesnâ€™t happen a lot. Itâ€™s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.

Taken from this thread answered almost 4 years ago

Quote:Can different races crossbreed?

Answer: Yes, but it is rare...and often difficult due to cultural differences, etc. which is why you don't see it often. The lore team has informed me that there will be future quests/events that touch on this and other issues, such as love and marriage.

Edit: I'm truly not understanding the walling about it. Is this, "well that's a mainly Eorzean case, I'm talking about Ishgard."

If it's Ishgard, where I assume these issues have come about, isn't this supportive? Isn't the fact that Fern has made a point, that the dev team has made a quest in 3.0 about cross-racial couples being an issue, supportive? Not to mention the fact that they've said in these answers that it's cultural.

Calm down. Okay so there's no biological issue cited, I guess, though they could be there, we don't know and it's not a topic I really tread often because... meh? Anyway the whole rest of this isn't in any way supportive of "Isghardians are racist". It's a logical leap that you'd need a pole vault to get across at this point. What you could assert, though, is that "An Ishgardian $person having offspring with a non-Ishgardian $person could be looked down on because non-Ishgardian $person is an 'outsider'" The only thing that is consistent here is "outsider".

I don't deal in conjecture, sir. I deal in logical conclusions drawn from actual data.

V'aleera · **04-17-2015, 03:08 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:01 PM)Kayllen Wrote: So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.

When discussing a nation we know almost nothing about in a region teeming with racial conflict and with vast histories of racial conflict,Â it is safe to assume that nation has no racial conflict?

I think the correct position would be to assert that there is no safe assumption.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:08 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:53 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.
You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

That... what?

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

No, the statements straight up say that crossbreeds are possible... but don't happen all that often because interracial couples are rare. Not due to the difficulty in conception, but because the races do not like each other. There is bad blood between the races. This is being directly stated in the quotes, which Kage has actually bolded for emphasis.

EDIT: Man, getting beaten to the punch time and time again here.

Again, as I've explained to Kage three times now, it still is NOT evidence that Ishgard is a racist state.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:09 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:08 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:01 PM)Kayllen Wrote: So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.
When discussing a nation we know almost nothing about in a region teeming with racial conflict and with vast histories of racial conflict,Â it is safe to assume that nation has no racial conflict?

I think the correct position would be to assert that there is no safe assumption.

It's almost as if you're vying on the side of "wait and see because we don't have enough information". I could hug you.

Aya · **04-17-2015, 03:10 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:01 PM)Kayllen Wrote: We don't know for sure that all the houses in Ishgard are Elezen and/or that only Elezen are part of the aristocracy. What we DO know is that Elezen are the majority population, thus increasing the chances that they will reach 'station' by population density alone.

Yes we do know that the major Houses are entirely Elezen (three Wildwood, one Duskwight).Â There's no evidence of non-Elezen Houses, so I can I turn your own mantra against you? Evidence please :-]

The reason the houses are Elezen is because they were there first.Â Its their city.Â Hyur are newcomers who have integrated over the past several centuries.Â The reason Elezen are better and more important is because its their city.Â Hyur are newcomers.Â Its not much of a leap.

Quote:It only flies in the face of what we know if we accept the very little we do know as the 'end all; be all'. Luckily that would be irrational and something that most people would avoid doing. Does your opinion that "It is likely that non-Elezen may have a harder time advancing in society" a possible and probable one? Yes, if not just from population density then from cultural examples of the Elezen seeming to be primarily the ones in positions of power. Is that evidence of racism? Still no. It MIGHT be argued that there is a class-privilege issue, though, but I won't back that horse without some more data.

I disagree entirely.Â Racism is the standard in Eorzea.Â We know that Ishgard society is racially segregated at the very top (there simply are none but Elezen there).Â It is possible that beneath this very top layer this situation simply ceases to exist, and all live with harmony united by their common religious conviction; however, this just does not agree with my intuition.Â It is possible (as I said, we don't know) but I think this is a significantly greater logical leap than to assume that the same stratification is the norm all the way down.

Quote:We would still have great cause to speak of it, actually. Evidence is what causes discussion to occur with actual logical debate. Without evidence you're just arguing conjecture and that ain't no way to be, mayun.

So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.

Evidence in the case of a yes/no proposition tends to settle the matter!Â And I would again turn your presumption on its head.Â National and cultural racism are the norm in Eorzea.Â The weight to overturn the proposition rests on those attempting to claim it does not exist.

V'aleera · **04-17-2015, 03:11 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:08 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Again, as I've explained to Kage three times now, it still is NOT evidence that Ishgard is a racist state.

Right, but it IS evidence that Eorzeans are typically racist.

Ishgardians are Eorzeans.

Warren Castille · **04-17-2015, 03:12 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:56 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: For the sake of making this not drag on for thirty pages, let's just all agree to autocorrect "racism" to "discrimination."

Hey, past!me. It's current/future!me. We tried, man. We tried.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:13 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:06 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:01 PM)Kayllen Wrote: We would still have great cause to speak of it, actually. Evidence is what causes discussion to occur with actual logical debate. Without evidence you're just arguing conjecture and that ain't no way to be, mayun.

So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.

If I can flip the script for a second - do we have any proof that there isn't racism? Or at the very least, none of the discrimination that - as stated by the lore team in the provided quotes - is quite common in Eorzea as a whole? What proof is there that Ishgard bucks the trend of the provided truth of races not liking each other that is so different from the rest of Eorzea?

I'm just saying that - if the idea that Ishgard has a racist society is conjecture due to lack of evidence, then so too is saying that they aren't without also providing evidence.

See that's why we have 'burden of proof' which lies on the person making the claim(s). =) Otherwise we're just swimming in the sea of Composition/Division fallacy.

Warren Castille · **04-17-2015, 03:16 PM**

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Calm down. Okay so there's no biological issue cited, I guess, though they could be there, we don't know and it's not a topic I really tread often because... meh?

I don't deal in conjecture, sir. I deal in logical conclusions drawn from actual data.

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote: No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

(04-17-2015, 03:13 PM)Kayllen Wrote: See that's why we have 'burden of proof' which lies on the person making the claim(s). =) Otherwise we're just swimming in the sea of Composition/Division fallacy.

Take just a second.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 03:17 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:08 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:53 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:41 PM)Kage Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:39 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I wasn't talking about cross breeds. That's been established as a rarity for a long time, now.
You were talking about evidence of cultural racisim.

That's the main one.

That... what?

No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

No, the statements straight up say that crossbreeds are possible... but don't happen all that often because interracial couples are rare. Not due to the difficulty in conception, but because the races do not like each other. There is bad blood between the races. This is being directly stated in the quotes, which Kage has actually bolded for emphasis.

EDIT: Man, getting beaten to the punch time and time again here.

Again, as I've explained to Kage three times now, it still is NOT evidence that Ishgard is a racist state.

I'm simply stating that a nation (in Eorzea) populated by people (who are Eorzean) could conceivably not like other people (who may or may not be Eorzean) who are not the same (Eorzean) race as them (as an Eorzean race) (Eorzea).

Whether it's true or not? As stated, we don't know. However, there is enough circumstantial evidence for people to RP characters who are subject to this racism (such as a Highlander or Miqo'te Ishgardian, as was the initial point of the thread - irregular race/nationality combinations). If not from the Ishgardian society itself, then from the inherent dislike of one race of another.

You could just as easily play an Ul'dahn Sea Wolf who was bullied as a kid by the Dunesfolk Lalafell he grew up around for being "the son of lawless pirates." Does Ul'dah hate Sea Wolves? We can't say either way - but we could still have a character who suffered racism due to this rampant dislike of people that are not the same race as you that has been categorically proven to exist in Eorzea. Which is the definition of racism.

Marisa · **04-17-2015, 03:18 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:56 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: For the sake of making this not drag on for thirty pages, let's just all agree to autocorrect "racism" to "discrimination."

Hey, past!me. It's current/future!me. We tried, man. We tried.

It was a valiant effort, but ultimately doomed to fail. I don't think there's anything you could have done.

Melkire · **04-17-2015, 03:21 PM**

From "Coming to Terms," 2.4 content:

Quote:Minfilia:

She has. Yet welcome though these overtures are, I cannot help but wonder what prompted them. The Ishgardians have spurned all contact with the other city-states for decades. Why reach out now?

Quote:Alphinaud:

...Friends of convenience who withdrew from the Alliance as soon as the imperial fleet was routed at the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

Minfilia:

...Since which time, their borders have remained closed to all outsiders.

Alphinaud:

They have rejected every one of their former allies' calls to reopen dialogue, turning a deaf ear to their neighbors' pleas even when the Calamity loomed large.

And on the fields of Carteneau, where brave men and women laid down their lives in defense of the realm, their banners were conspicuously absent...

From the resulting cutscene, again, 2.4 content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXB8bmZOY2s

Quote:Aymeric:

Concerns have been raised over the supplies House Fortemps has offered to Revenant's Toll. These have led to calls for restrictions on the provision of aid to foreign powers.

I could go on, dig through older 2.x content for more, and certainly find quotes from newer content, but this is a good starting point.

It is very fair, well, and good to say that Ishgard's conflict with the Dravanians has them stretched too thin. Aymeric even notes to Alphinaud that they have no knights to spare (I'm assuming this means all the lancers, dragoons, and such posted to Coerthas are not up to snuff to qualify) since said knights are all occupied. This can certainly be extended to their not wanting to provide aid in the way of supplies and provisions.

...but still, this all paints a very xenophobic picture. For DECADES, Ishgard has been closed off, playing a very isolationist policy. They haven't let anyone new in. They haven't accepted aid. They haven't lent aid. Not until Aymeric, having worked his way up to his influential position from lowborn status, decides to do his best to change all that... and even then, he is acting against formal policy.

They have justification for acting this way, we just don't know what it is yet (my bets are on the long-game that the Ascians are playing by influencing the Holy See). That, however, does not excuse the behavior for what it is, which, again: isolationist with xenophobic undertones.

I'll take a moment for a very minor point of speculation and conjecture: where are the Ishgardian Roegadyns and Lalafells in addition to the Ishgardian Miqo'te? We'll have to wait until 3.0 hits and Foundation opens to us to find out, but I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you won't find many, if any, of those three races in the upper echelons of Ishgardian society.

I'd go digging for the undertones of racism, but I don't recall exactly which quests they were in and there's a ton to go through, MSQ and otherwise. I'm at work. I might dig for it tonight or this weekend.

EDIT: Sounsyy mentioned above, and it's from 1.0 lore I believe, that the four main Houses are all Elezen in origin.

EDIT 2: Huh. Garlean model with eye for Lucia. That confirms the circlet speculation.

EDIT 3: "Xenophobia" here is merely "fear of outsiders," not "fear of aliens" in the racist sense.

Kage · **04-17-2015, 03:22 PM**

It is evidence that races experience discrimination over their cultural differences.

The elite in Ishgard are made up of one of the culturally discriminatory races (much talked about Elezen vs Hyur cultural issue.

Cross breeds are treated differently. Conjecture because we don't know if it is Ishgard but they keep mentioning 3.0 so Ishgard is a very safe assumption. That would nake it a societal issue.

maybe it is too politically correct to call them out on it? Why would I not call out a city state who treats a cross racial couple/offspring differently not racist???

The lore team isnt saying "certain individual of x race". These are broad general statements which indicate it is the norm for the races.

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Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

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