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ArmachiA · **04-26-2015, 03:58 PM**

I think the only thing that really bugs me is the assumed "My character will be better than yours." How exactly do you know that? Do you know if/when my character has been training? Do you know her complete background to make that judgement call? There is no possible way for a another character who doesn't know mine to know how strong she is or isn't. Anyone who walks into a fight oocly (ICly cockiness is a thing) with the attitude that their character is stronger than anyone's is being highly HIGHLY presumptuous.

Now, Armi would probably lose, true, but I know plenty of RP characters who are completely combat capable and to assume they wouldn't give your character a challenge is amazingly naive.

***Maril*** · **04-26-2015, 04:13 PM**

I've always worked from the belief that the person that knows the most about a character is the player who plays it, and that you should never ever ever assume anything about anyone elses character. This includes thinking your character is stronger than anyone elses, actually I'd say that it's more "healthy" to assume the opposite because it gears you up mentally for having to look at more opportunities in fights and think outside of the box.Â Even the strongest of characters can be beaten with simple tricks, especially because they tend to be oh so strong and mighty that they forget the basics.Â
But by this logic as well, I never straight up assume that a character is OP until severely proven otherwise. I've played alongside people that has had really strong characters, but the characters have still been in balance because they have a straight up achillies heel - but something they quite naturally didn't want to reveal what was oocly, because you can bet your butt it'd be a piece of information that would be abused. They faced a lot of "Omg your character is too strong" grief because they didn't want to reveal what the weakness was, people never straight up took their word for it to proceed to try and figure it out icly by applying different strategies.Â

If someone is straight up playing an OP demigod that can't be beaten, literally never takes any hits and generally speaking is the reason why freeform emotefights have a bad reputation, I'll likely abort the roleplay and pretend it never happened. I don't see much point in trying to rationalize and reason with the player at that point. But again, it needs to be thoroughly proven before I get to that conclusion.

SicketySix · **04-26-2015, 04:42 PM**

/em let's out a fierce yell and without a second notice, whips out his sword and slices their head clean off. Slowly uses his shirt to wipe away the blood, giving the lifeless corpse now before him a satisfied smirk, he exits the area

And then I let them figure out how to Rp with that. Problem solved.

Edvyn · **04-26-2015, 05:12 PM**

i come across this kind of situation a lot thanks to the kind of character i play - when this happens, the "you are trying my character's patience" and desire to fight tends to also be coupled with the desire to fight outside. they don't want to battle and cause a mess in the middle of the quicksand!

so, like any reasonable and mature adult, i say "sure thing, you first". then i leave them outside. then i go back inside, proclaiming i won. Cool

Val · **04-26-2015, 05:32 PM**

(04-26-2015, 10:35 AM)K Wrote: I initially had this written out another way with a hypothetical but I think I'll just come at it straight.

How do/would you react to someone who wants to believe that their character is stronger than you/most other people - and your character was heavily testing their patience?

1) Would you override their belief with anything along the lines of "My character is strong too!" ?

3) Would you insist that your character puts up a decent fight regardless, but will still ultimately lose?

3) Would you take your lumps and let the experience unfold in your own character's disfavour?

4) Other?

Imagine that the person is OOCly being reasonable and not harbouring any sense of an attitude akin to:
- "I can and will beat up anyone else's character because I can"

In addition, does anyone have a particularly strong character(s) that normally come out on top but would still happily see them taken by surprise or even beaten unexpectedly by someone of a similar or perhaps even lesser level of skill level/strength?

If they can thoroughly justify being stronger than my character without breaking lore, then sure. I don't mind. But as you pointed out at the bottom of your post, strength does not necessarily denote a victory.

1.) Nah. My characters are how they are. If someone manages to beat them, they get beaten!

2.) I'd say it would depend on the situation and what they're going against. There are times where my characters just get the crap beaten out of them, and there are others where they can put up decent fights.

3.) Certainly! I've done it before, too! Someone managed to thoroughly outsmart Val and knocked him out cold--a guy that he considered to be vastlyÂ inferior to himself. He learned something that day. It's welcomed character development.

Honestly, as long as people are reasonable OOC and willing to discuss things, I'm game with most scenarios. When preparing for IC combat that isn't scripted (which I prefer anyway), I almost always ask the individual (unless it's someone that I know/am comfortable with) to simply let me know if they have any issues or inquiries about my character's attacks. I'm a firm believer that communication can go a long way to prevent arguments and problems and, should they not agree to something a character of mine has done, I will either try to back up why they did it or agree to their point and change it Smile

Paradox · **04-26-2015, 05:44 PM**

Something I inherently noticed is a lot of people immediately don't want to get into any kind of emote fight because they don't know or don't trust the person. In retrospect, how will you get to know or trust someone if you don't give them an honest chance? Admittedly, some will be asinine, but you won't know till you try. In response to those that say 'I'll only do it with rolls', that is indeed your option. However, win or lose, I prefer not to use rolls for most combat, and this is the reason why. Even if your character is seasoned, a roll can basically make you look like an idiot. Your skill, creativity, and representation of your character is immediately boiled down into totally random chance. To me, not only is that an unrealistic interpretation of not only my character's skill, but your character's as well, I find it breaks the immersion and capability of both the writer and the aspect that is presented. I understand a lot of people are afraid of emote/freeform fighting because there are asshats out there. The thing is, not everyone is such an asshat, and displaying cynicism by believing the worst of someone trying to fight you before even giving them a chance kind of tells me the reason why nobody likes to fight in the community that I've seen so far except in announced or pre-sanctioned events like grindstone or existing stories. And in a way this makes me sad.

I love fighting. Combat roleplay is one of my favorite types because I'll be blunt: I enjoy conflict. Real conflict. I've never been one for romance drama or any of that, it bores me. No offense to those who enjoy that sort of thing of course. But, then again, I cut my roleplay teeth in a place where no one needed permission to kill or attack you. It was a kill or be killed, real time environment. The HTML-style chat rooms of the early to late 90's and on in to the early 2000's were the place I was. In the vampire clans and similar rooms, everyone was at constant war, and you could expect to be ambushed on the streets of whatever room you were in a lot, especially if you were even halfway good. Characters died a lot if you weren't on top of your game. It wasn't an every day thing, but people took their combat seriously, and in the early days, we had no such dice rollers, so we all had to freeform. Not all of us knew each other, either. Sure, we had godmodders and jackasses, but anyone who wants to not be ostracized plays at least somewhat fair. And I say that's the way to do it. Reputation and the grapevine will weed out the bads. The big problem is, a lot of people's playstyles don't interact well with one another, and therein lies the major problem. In this community from what I've seen, most people go by the 'permission to kill' rules. That being the case, a fight could at best, result in your defeat and humiliation, no death incurred unless you allow it. With this measure of control over character death, I genuinely see no reason not to fight at least some of the time.

Now, I get that some of you have your own ways. But it also depends entirely on the approach in question. Ark for example, is an arrogant bastard. And he's quite strong, yes. But he already knows there's always someone bigger. But for him, the thrill of the battle is what's most important; win or lose, he loves to fight. That's not to say he won't use every dirty magical trick or combination in the book to whip that ass, yet at the same time he's not invincible either. S'vanoh on the other hand, is more tricky than powerful, so naturally when faced with overwhelming power, he could also run away. He is a ninja after all. The other thing I've also noticed is that a lot of people don't throw themselves into fighting. Okay, fair enough, it's not exactly everyone's thing. But also, in a world in constant conflict, expect some people to want to start shit IC because some characters are like that. And there are far too many who cop out with 'oh, it's not worth my time' or 'oh, if they don't do it the way I want, then they're obviously godmodders/metagamers/etc'. I find that elitism and dismissal from a lot of people who fancy themselves too good to fight just because they assume someone is going to shrug hits or no-sell their attacks just because they don't want to play the same way they do is as irritating as people who refuse to take their hits in the first place.

Equally irritating are players who present their characters as strong, or seasoned, and then when confronted with a potential fight refuse to because they don't RP fight, or have such a strict way to do so, it essentially makes their IC posturing utterly pointless. I think if someone is going to play a character that talks of their combat prowess, they should be willing to back it up. I get everyone has their own realistic or fantasy style view of what a fight should be or shouldn't be. In terms of the poll..mmm..honestly, I'd take the fights as they came. I prefer freeform fights over rolls. Rolls are too random. In a scripted event, I can see where rolls have their point, but as a writer who puts a great deal of effort into his writing, I find having to depend on a random dice roller to represent my character's skills, honed or amateur they may be depending on the character, to be insulting both to my character's effort that's been given and to my own creativity and skill as a writer. I prefer to leave the dice to a game fully dependent on stats like Pathfinder. If this rustles some jimmies, my apologies. I simply suppose that I won't be engaging in combat with those people's characters. I've taken my lumps before and I'd certainly do so now.

Till we meet in the field of battle..or not! Game on and have fun.

ArmachiA · **04-26-2015, 05:55 PM**

When there's no GM to make sure both parties aren't "playing fair", coupled with the fact every single MMO roleplayer has been burned by random combat encounters with people who like to God Mod, you can understand why the player would be twitchy about it.

Dis · **04-26-2015, 05:58 PM**

A character wants to fight one of mine? Â Cool. Â I'm game. Â If the play doesn't run the way I want it to (fairly and with lumps taken where appropriate), then I'll be happy to simply avoid conflict with that individual in the future, or play, if I find them to be unwilling to give and take equally (again, where appropriate). Â The responses of my characters are a little different, however, but I, as a player, am usually pretty eager to RP fight, as I find repeated slice of life RP to not be my cup of tea.

Glioca's a tough individual to beat because she has a lot of magic to draw on, coupled with her very insane physical strength. Â She doesn't believe in a lot of technique because her raw power is so high, and she prefers to punch someone into a building/structure/out a door/window/etc to end a fight. Â In the case of someone riling her repeatedly, she usually shoots for intimidation first (breaking something not a person), before she resorts to violence actively against someone else. Â

Aelden is a scrapper and would give it his best shot, but he's good at taking his licks and stores the fight away for a later date, usually to revisit the issue later with a second instance of combat. Â And probably again and again, until he eventually beats them. Â My Ninja wouldn't care much to get into a fight unless it's something that she's been specifically tasked with doing. Â She's a big believer in taking a deep breath, counting, and walking away from impending conflict because it serves no purpose for her. Â She will flee if a fight becomes more than she can handle. Â

Liviana would flail a lot and ask what she did wrong because she didn't /think/ she was doing anything wrong and please don't make the injury too severe because she can't afford a good healer. Â She's stubborn, and would keep trying, but would get whupped all over the field. Â Dark doesn't like to fight at all, and generally avoids it as much as possible, but if pressed, she can and does know how to defend herself quite well.

That said, even Glioca, strong as she is, can and has technically lost fights, though they normally end in a double k.o., as it were, with both opponents knocked flat on their backsides, or unable to continue fighting because they've been too depleted, worn down, etc. Â Even my strongest (Glioca) would applaud someone who got one over on her, because she likes to see that ingenuity from others. Â She's very arrogant about her own strength, but I recognize that she's got limitations, and so does she, and if people are willing to find those limitations without a large degree of hand-holding, then that makes me happy as a RPer.
Â Â
As far as RPing combat, I'm happy to do so with free-form (with OOC communication if any issue arises), and like A'rk, I really don't like dice rollers. Â I've used them in the past, but my issue with dice is that sometimes they favor a weaker combatant more heavily. Â Glioca once got almost KO'd by an NPC with almost no combat skill because my dice hated me that day. Â And that is honestly ridiculous. Â It's more akin to watching an experienced fighter take on a kid flailing their arms at them, and watching the kid win. Â There's so minuscule a chance of that, it'd be unrealistic to watch, much less play.

Paradox · **04-26-2015, 06:04 PM**

(04-26-2015, 05:55 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: When there's no GM to make sure both parties aren't "playing fair", coupled with the fact every single MMO roleplayer has been burned by random combat encounters with people who like to God Mod, you can understand why the player would be twitchy about it.

I've been burned by many an encounter. However, I don't allow that to force me to assume everyone's going to do that. If it does happen, I blist or ignore them, no harm no foul. Or in some cases, if they're willing to communicate, if they're inexperienced as a roleplayer and just flush with the idea of power, I try to help them refine their style. If they don't act like a jerk, then I've just made a new roleplay partner. Win/win. And all I've lost was a little personal time if they turn out to be a problem. It's not like someone actually kicked my dog. It could just be that I'm not easily frustrated by people's actions because I've seen so many different types, I just prefer to roll with the punches. I understand why some might be twitchy, but at the same time, it's equally ignorant to let one's personal experience at the hand of asshats allow one to assume that everyone will be an asshat and behave as such. I've encountered quite a few dismissive or derisive attitudes at Ark's willingness to fight, just because of such assumptions, without ever giving it a chance.

Aaron · **04-26-2015, 06:09 PM**

To be honest! As an add on to my earlier post.

I generally give everyone the benefit of the doubt when it comes to free form random fights! In fact, when Aaron fights someone new he almost always deliberately gives up (not without giving a scar of course) or stalemates, hell rarely ever win a outright fight because honestly, winning is "way too much effort and injury" to him.

But, I'd also like to bite off Sounsyys post as well, a lot of people IC know Aaron, though quiet and reserved, is a very capable fighter. Therefore OOC I have no need to play the nu uh Aarons too strong for you! Card lol, because people already know Aaron is someone most would rather not cross blades with. Win or lose.

Besides the point, Â I generally love a good fight rp and if possible I always try to throw Aaron into one. (Reason being Aaron is subconsciously attracted to fighting as he gets a thrill out of it, but he won't accept it.) But there are many times where Aaron will just not fight to the point of him getting assaulted and not even attempting to defend himself. If that counts as a random fight! Then i I'll go that route with anyone.

Now with the real concept of do I trust the person OOC or not? I generally discover how that works in their first few rp posts in the fight. I'll emote something that just for the life of you cannot be dodged. (Ex, Aaron has a blade right by your neck as a product of a grapple and he goes to cut you) and if they dodge it (it probably can be dodged honestly, but that's highly unlikely given how close they'd be) then I'd make Aaron give up. No one rages, the other person gets their IC ego boost, and Aaron doesn't suffer a godmode beat down loss.

But tbh I doubt there's more godmoders than real rpers. Fights are about the story, not the power.

Dis · **04-26-2015, 06:12 PM**

(04-26-2015, 05:55 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: When there's no GM to make sure both parties aren't "playing fair", coupled with the fact every single MMO roleplayer has been burned by random combat encounters with people who like to God Mod, you can understand why the player would be twitchy about it.

I've had to deal with my fair share of god modders, and worse types of conflict RP. Â If I stop or try and ignore conflict RP because one or two people burned me, I'd be limiting myself, and closing myself off from potential RP partners. Â Again, back to the point of doing myself and them a disservice. Â I think A'rk summed up the reasoning behind why it isn't that big of a problem and that I don't need to go much further into it.

Flashhelix · **04-26-2015, 06:40 PM**

I write Oskwell as an experienced lancer. A damned good lancer, even, having been training for nearly half his life. Do I mind him losing? Not at all. Am I picky about who he loses to? Not at all. Which is why I use rolls. You may think that something about your character, whether it's how you've written them or how much time you've spent writing them or even something else, makes them "too good" to be beaten by a character you don't think would be able to beat them, but at that point it seems like a problem of your word against another's. When you say "I don't wanna roll-fight because it wouldn't suit how I've written them" you're assuming quite a lot of the other character of the equation.

There's plenty of ways to win a fight. Oskwell isn't so sacred a character that I lose my mind whenever he loses to an amateur lalafell lancer. Osk has lost multiple times to those that could be called less skilled than himself, whether it's through his handicap, prior injuries hindering him, various dirty tactics, outside interference, etc. Rolls don't do anything but determine the outcome and the general tone (a quick, decisive victory vs. a long, drawn-out and hard-fought win, for instance) of the fight, and those are two things that hardly hinder my writing.

In most fiction, it's quite easy to keep powerlevels and who should win what fight because there's one author. In roleplay, there's many authors, and when there's many authors, there's discrepancies. Just look at any long-running comic book for reference. Flash can outrun Death himself and kick the shit out of Superman in a race one day, and get flattened by the likes of Captain Cold and other street-level rogues the next. And this is comics, where a title changes hands every few years. In roleplay, you have a separate author behind every single character, so the best way to go about things is just to dispel the image that you're writing a fantasy epic and think more like you're writing a comic book. The strength of characters should change to encourage good roleplay, instead of roleplay accommodating who players think they should and shouldn't be able to beat and in what way.

Paradox · **04-26-2015, 06:46 PM**

For me, it's not about my character being too 'good' or too 'bad' to win or lose. It's about the fact that dice breaks immersion in my opinion. Having to stop the flow to roll dice and then figure things out breaks the picture in my head. When I fight, post and counterpost is a flow that I can see clearly, and that messes up my ability to see. I also find leaving battle to entirely random chance misrepresents the character. I put effort into everything I do. Dice, to me, says 'fuck your effort and your ability, lady luck decides everything', and that seems unacceptable to me. Everyone has their own way of doing things. I don't mind losing either, but I'd rather lose because my opponent was a superior fighter and planned his win. Dirty tricks, unfair fighting, or honorable play and just being plain better. I just dislike rolls in a one on one battle. They're great for story fights with multiple players, for plot resolution, and the like. But if it's just me and the person in front of me, I'd like to think both of us would be able to resolve an IC fight without resorting to the winner being chosen not by which of us were more clever and fought better, but by a computer saying which of us fought better. It ceases to be roleplay then. It becomes a dice game. And I'm not keen on the idea of my fights being solved by snake eyes.

Aaron · **04-26-2015, 06:49 PM**

Wait till you roll a 0. Then you'll really break down crying.

I'm still not over seeing that happen lol.

Paradox · **04-26-2015, 06:53 PM**

There's only one thing to do when you roll 0.

Divide by it. =D

Poll: How would you handle an OOCly, self-proclaimed powerful opponent? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Largely dismiss the opposition's singular opinion of strength against your own character's abilities	18.60%	8	18.60%
'Always' expect to get your hits in regardless of the end result	6.98%	3	6.98%
Allow your character to "lose" as a result of being weaker	25.58%	11	25.58%
Other	48.84%	21	48.84%
Total		43 vote(s)	100%

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