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Flashhelix · **04-26-2015, 06:54 PM**

(04-26-2015, 06:46 PM)Arklonn Sargonnai Wrote: more clever and fought better

That's subjective, though. Really subjective.

Enla · **04-26-2015, 07:05 PM**

(04-26-2015, 11:05 AM)SessionZero Wrote: If I'm going to be fighting with someone who I am not familiar with on an OOC level, I insist on using rolls to determine the outcome. If the other person cannot agree to such, I do not engage them IC. I either find a way to avoid the confrontation, or I just excuse myself abruptly from the RP.

This, I've had and seen far too many bad experiences with combat RP back on SWTOR to ever trust someone I'm unfamiliar with to use the honor system properly. Far too many people use RP as a means of inflating their own egos, and while I'm not saying I don't in some ways do that because it's the trap of engaging in this form of interaction in the first place, I really have a hard time trusting people especially when their character is ICly considered to be fairly powerful. Far too many of my old friends were either run ramshod over or told their character was 'killed' because some asshole in the community got it into their head to fight them and force a win. Sometimes without any consent from my friends to even fight in the first place. There were entire player groups who min-maxed the ever loving fuck out of their characters, taking traits and aspects that made them almost invincible and then expected you to just lay down quietly as they curb stomped a character who ICly should have at least been somewhat of a match for them.

As such I really don't put up with it anymore. If someone wants to fight my characters and I'm unfamiliar with them, I use the roll system and set out rules to what they can and cannot do to my characters as a precaution. However - with that said - once I know them all that falls to the wayside. Want to permanently maim my character? Go ahead! Beat them to within an inch of their life? YES PLEASE! I purposefully play weaker characters because I find them more compelling on a personal level to write, I'm not going to fudge their chances in a proper fight for anything. However, I must first know the other person isn't going to essentially go 'lol I see your attack but I have super duper indestructible armor that you can only craft one day every thousand years, so it does absolutely nothing to me trolololo', before I default to the honor system.

Dis · **04-26-2015, 07:05 PM**

(04-26-2015, 06:54 PM)Flashhelix Wrote:
(04-26-2015, 06:46 PM)A Wrote: more clever and fought better

That's subjective, though. Really subjective.

There's actually nothing subjective about it. Â It boils down to the more inventive mind. Â The one who can come up with the most clever application of what their characters can do. Â Sometimes it boils down to the person just finding a way to do something in a fight that has you sitting back going, 'Damn. Â I really don't think I could beat this or get out of it fairly. Â I'll take that hit gladly, props to the other player.' Â

There's nothingÂ subjective about someone being exceptionally clever. Â If they manage it, that's awesome. Â If they don't, I don't want a computer program saying that my writing and well thought out tactics mean absolute shit because I got one lower number than someone else on a die. Â I save that for mass conflicts that have to be resolved quickly, or my D&D game. Â And even then, it's never just 'flat numbers', especially as characters get stronger. Â

How willing would you be to put dice in control of what happens to your character if there was no need for permission for character death, but a loss, even one to a minor character with no skill, means permadeath, a fantasia, a name change, and re-rolling your toon, with months (and sometimes years) of work lost? Â Because I guarantee you, very few people would be as eager to yell 'dice rolls!' if rolling a 1 when you need a 10 means you lose that character permanently.

Paradox · **04-26-2015, 07:25 PM**

[quote pid=175651 dateline=1430089501]

Quote:As such I really don't put up with it anymore. If someone wants to fight my characters and I'm unfamiliar with them, I use the roll system and set out rules to what they can and cannot do to my characters as a precaution. However - with that said - once I know them all that falls to the wayside. Want to permanently maim my character? Go ahead! Beat them to within an inch of their life? YES PLEASE! I purposefully play weaker characters because I find them more compelling on a personal level to write, I'm not going to fudge their chances in a proper fight for anything. However, I must first know the other person isn't going to essentially go 'lol I see your attack but I have super duper indestructible armor that you can only craft one day every thousand years, so it does absolutely nothing to me trolololo', before I default to the honor system.

[/quote]

My only (minor) gripe with this is, it only takes five minutes, not even that, to invite the person into a party, have a discussion with them, and see where they stand and if you can work something out. Hell, ask them their actual character's power. Goodness knows if they're good roleplayers, they'll tell you whatever you want to know barring special secrets. And you may be surprised, pleasantly. It could be their character has an inflated ego and can't back it up. Assuming they're going to godmod you might be selling them short. I don't like roll system. I really don't. I will agree to do it, if both of us (myself and the other player or players, not actually like..you and me in this discussion, I mean.) come to an agreement on why, but it's not my preference. However, forcing someone to use the system you prefer or else you don't even let them have a chance, seems like roleplaying in a bubble to me.

Admittedly no one can make you do what you don't want, and everyone has their own way, so that's that. And as stated, I will adamantly fight any reason to push me into rolling dice, I suppose I'm guilty in my own way of sticking to a specific preference. Pot and kettle, and all that, I know. So I'm not trying to sound judging at all so don't let it come off that way as it's not meant as such, but as Aaron said, there are probably far more decent roleplayers than jerks by the numbers. Hell, I got to know some of my favorite roleplayers in random freeform dust ups between our characters.

Edited because the quote bubbles hate me. OTL

Verad · **04-26-2015, 07:30 PM**

Cleverness triumphing over brute force is a subjective judgment, and speaks of the kind of mind that values freeform combat, which, reduced to its base components, is a game of duelling logic constructs.

In general, I find it more immersion-breaking than dice because it presumes the clever fighter wins. Sometimes they just cleverly die.

Flashhelix · **04-26-2015, 07:35 PM**

(04-26-2015, 07:05 PM)Glioca Sargonnai Wrote:
(04-26-2015, 06:54 PM)Flashhelix Wrote:
(04-26-2015, 06:46 PM)A Wrote: more clever and fought better

That's subjective, though. Really subjective.

There's actually nothing subjective about it. Â It boils down to the more inventive mind. Â The one who can come up with the most clever application of what their characters can do. Â Sometimes it boils down to the person just finding a way to do something in a fight that has you sitting back going, 'Damn. Â I really don't think I could beat this or get out of it fairly. Â I'll take that hit gladly, props to the other player.' Â

There's nothingÂ subjective about someone being exceptionally clever. Â If they manage it, that's awesome. Â If they don't, I don't want a computer program saying that my writing and well thought out tactics mean absolute shit because I got one lower number than someone else on a die. Â I save that for mass conflicts that have to be resolved quickly, or my D&D game. Â And even then, it's never just 'flat numbers', especially as characters get stronger. Â

How willing would you be to put dice in control of what happens to your character if there was no need for permission for character death, but a loss, even one to a minor character with no skill, means permadeath, a fantasia, a name change, and re-rolling your toon, with months (and sometimes years) of work lost? Â Because I guarantee you, very few people would be as eager to yell 'dice rolls!' if rolling a 1 when you need a 10 means you lose that character permanently.

Except there's everything subjective about it. There's no GM, so it's the players who decide whether or not an attack is inescapable or not, or whether something can be countered, so it just leads to a whole lot of "No, my roleplay > your roleplayer" and blacklists all around. A writer who puts a lot of thought into their characters' tactics should also be able convincingly write why their character is losing to somebody with less experience/physical ability/laser eyes/whatever.

Paradox · **04-26-2015, 07:39 PM**

This might be the case in some instances, but when it comes to roleplay, clever might also mean retreating. Hell, I'd love to see someone actually run away. No one even considers that retreat or surrender's even a possibility. Or even go into a populated area where they couldn't actually feasibly keep attacking realistically due to brass blades/sultansworn/generic npc guards.

I guess I just prefer dueling logic constructs. I've seen people that fight smart win out over the bigger, badder types. It just seems odd if someone is very good at one type of fighting, say a dragoon with a spear for example, to fail multiple times in a row because of consistently bad rolls. It literally makes no sense to me. It may make fights more balanced and fair, but fights are not always fair.

I s'pose some of us will just have to agree to disagree. No big deal.

Verad · **04-26-2015, 07:43 PM**

Exactly. They're not fair. That's why fighting smart doesn't fairly guarantee victory. To suggest it should consistently guarantee victory is to suggest a kind of fairness.

Seye Qhesu · **04-26-2015, 07:44 PM**

Sadly, I ran in to this issue just the other day. A character was harassing a friend's character and using more then colorful language. I can understand the F word here or there;hell, Bri uses it; but the C word constantly in every sentence is just pushing it. I was polite and asked if the player did rolls in which he agreed to but when I rolled to toss him for his language and won he refused to acknowledge it by saying 'Will not be tossed by a character smaller then him and is combat trained.' The man was a midlander and smaller then Bri.

At that point I took note of the character's name, removed Bri from the confrontation and Rp'd around the man to get the group I was with to leave the area as he obviously was not leaving; even after being punched in the face by another player. It is very unwelcoming to run in to people like this. I understand you want your character to be big and bad; I know Bri acts (and has gotten her ass kicked constantly); but you are in a game with others. If you want your character to be the strongest out there you are going to be in a world of hurt either for RP or for friends. This is an online game, not your personal fanfiction.

Paradox · **04-26-2015, 07:45 PM**

I s'pose I have to give you that one. Point made. Still, there is no real fairness in battle in a lot of cases. I've won and lost my share of fights in RP, I just like to think someone can surprise me, and there's just no surprise in dice, really. But! To each their own. The discussion is fun regardless. Gives me a feel for who likes what.

Meena · **04-26-2015, 07:48 PM**

My charatcer is weaker than most. I never expect to win. That being said I don't think she would have any rivals that would start a dight. 90% of the time i'll just roll with it for the story aspect instead of going into a big OOC debate about what happens.

Dis · **04-26-2015, 07:53 PM**

(04-26-2015, 07:43 PM)Verad Wrote: Exactly. They're not fair. That's why fighting smart doesn't fairly guarantee victory. To suggest it should consistently guarantee victory is to suggest a kind of fairness.

I think I might have misrepresented what I meant by 'clever'. Â I'm referring specifically to the player willing to be inventive, creative, and willing to compromise and acknowledge when they might be outmatched. Â

If someone's fighting dirty against someone who's trying to fight smart, the person fighting dirty will likely have better tricks and get an upper edge, obviously because they're pressing the advantage, but also because they're not following traditional convention. Â That doesn't necessarily guarantee victory, but also doesn't guarantee a loss.

Any good RPer should be willing to accept wins and losses equally. Â God knows the last time Glioca was in a fight, despite the fact she was able to move at the end, she still lost the fight and was technically the more injured party at the end. Â And she acknowledged she lost to her opponent. Â

Frankly, as long as both parties are having fun with the fight, that's more important than anything else. Â I do agree with Brianna, that it's an online game and not a fanfiction. Â As such, I expect that my character should be able to react accordingly how they would, and not have their actions dictated down by a roll of the dice (writer). Â I'll have to agree to disagree on this point, but I still stand by my earlier statements.

If a bad roll of the dice meant more than just a 'quick loss', people would be less eager to rely solely on dice.

Faye · **04-26-2015, 07:56 PM**

(04-26-2015, 10:35 AM)Knahli Wrote: How do/would you react to someone who wants to believe that their character is stronger than you/most other people - and your character was heavily testing their patience?

(04-26-2015, 10:35 AM)Knahli Wrote: Imagine that the person is OOCly being reasonable...

To me, these things tend to directly contradict each other in a role-player, so I'm not sure how to answer a hypothetical question that to me just seems... impossible. The best answer I can give is that I wouldn't land myself in that situation to begin with, because from the sounds of it my character would be the instigator, and I'd like to avoid this kind of role-player IC and OOC, so I can't imagine I'd have my character provoke them.

Desu Nee · **04-26-2015, 08:00 PM**

I really don't like to post in threads like these, because I'm always wary any word could trigger an unpleasant discussion based on an individual own views on the problem. Personally, I would let them win, because in the end, Quki ain't some whoop-ass Thaumaturge. Yes, she's pretty magic talented but anyone with a strong knuckle can knock her out, she's kinda fragile. While I admit that this situation sometimes really suck, I try to think from their side, and if it's because they're new, I help them and explain the situation. I've teleported behind people and decapitated them in a single move in my days too, I really try to not be unfriendly just because someone has little experience on this than me.

But if they're experienced, and just being obnoxious with their character power level, then I'll just excuse myself. I can't say I had enough FFXIV roleplay fights to have a strong opinion.

Paradox · **04-26-2015, 08:03 PM**

There is one way that this makes sense, and that's if someone has consistently won battles in a reasonable fashion and has had reason to believe in their strength because to date their character hasn't been defeated..but still maintains a reasonable level of OOC disconnect realizing that they *can* lose, but till now have had no evidence of loss backing up their belief in their character's power. In a way it was phrased a bit..eh..that is hard to merge together one way or another, maybe if it had been stated a different way?

As for instigating..well, you really don't know what kind of roleplayer someone is until you interact with them, so there's no guarantee depending on where your story was going you might not instigate them one way or another, right? I mean, none of us can know the future one way or the other.

Poll: How would you handle an OOCly, self-proclaimed powerful opponent? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Largely dismiss the opposition's singular opinion of strength against your own character's abilities	18.60%	8	18.60%
'Always' expect to get your hits in regardless of the end result	6.98%	3	6.98%
Allow your character to "lose" as a result of being weaker	25.58%	11	25.58%
Other	48.84%	21	48.84%
Total		43 vote(s)	100%

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