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Kellach Woods · **04-25-2015, 10:29 AM**

(04-25-2015, 10:21 AM)OttoVann Wrote: Why are people here going ballistic over the 75% cut when Valve is giving access to sell goods via their infrastructure and tools to their developed and robust install base.

Do people here think anyone should be able to utilize that for peanuts to free? Â Valve should let you profit of their work for free because...?

And you think that modders don't deserve fair compensation because...?

The problem in this particular situation isn't Valve (though doing something like this without thinking pretty much sent their own lawyers into overdrive, btw which is never a good thing to hear), it's Zenimax who decided that modders get practically nothing for doing the majority of the work on that particular mod. Which is also why I don't believe for a single second Zenimax'd release an Elder Scrolls game for free and go for only add-on money.

(Then there's the whole issue of a check only being issued when 100$ has been reached, but that's another whole ballgame and also been how internets money has worked for quite some time.)

OttoVann · **04-25-2015, 10:45 AM**

(04-25-2015, 10:29 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(04-25-2015, 10:21 AM)OttoVann Wrote: Why are people here going ballistic over the 75% cut when Valve is giving access to sell goods via their infrastructure and tools to their developed and robust install base.

Do people here think anyone should be able to utilize that for peanuts to free? Â Valve should let you profit of their work for free because...?

And you think that modders don't deserve fair compensation because...?

The problem in this particular situation isn't Valve (though doing something like this without thinking pretty much sent their own lawyers into overdrive, btw which is never a good thing to hear), it's Zenimax who decided that modders get practically nothing for doing the majority of the work on that particular mod. Which is also why I don't believe for a single second Zenimax'd release an Elder Scrolls game for free and go for only add-on money.

(Then there's the whole issue of a check only being issued when 100$ has been reached, but that's another whole ballgame and also been how internets money has worked for quite some time.)

What exactly is fair when the modder makes the mod and essentially has someone else publish and distribute and advertise for them.

They endured no risk to bring their mod to the market. To be in any market of any kind selling anything, when you assume no risk you assume smaller takes. It will always be this way. It's not even a bad or immoral thing. Zenimax could take less, but they are entitled to royalties from people taking their assets and making money with them.

Hammersmith · **04-25-2015, 10:56 AM**

So has no one addressed one of the 500 lb gorilla in the room yet? Â Because that motherfucker's got some barrels it's looking to throw.

Most, if not all, of modern skyrim modding, outside of models, functions off theÂ Skyrim ScriptÂ Extender (SKSE)Â mod. Â They'veÂ been mentioned at least once in this thread, so I know they're not completely unknown. Â Those of you who've run mods know that this package lets you activate an obscene amount of mods in the game, from lighting to dancing bears to Early Release fishing games.

This team works, a lot, to make that mod work, functional, and to add new functionality to it. Â It's been a while since I was into this entire scene, but the SKSE set was the entire focal point from which all other things moved.

Let me set that up again: Without the SKSE few to none of these mods work. They would have to be removed, or have an extra charge tagged on to use them.

That's a hell of a leverage to have.

Now imagine that in any game where this sort of practice is normal (Fallout, Any elder scrolls game ever, basically any moddable RPG ever, for starters) this kind of archstone of modding goes behind a pay gate.

Now you're fucked unless you also by the SKSE equvilent. Â You can't get updates to the mod and un-break your other paid for mod subscriptions as they update unless you have the SKSE subscription.

Right now the SKSE team isn't going over to the new service, as far as I can tell.

I can't trust that will be the case for anything in the future of gaming if this trend continues. Â It's very, very easy for this entire thing to fall apart because one modding team does/does not go behind a paywall. Â Devs could put this kind of power behind a paywall now and come after freelance modders like the SKSE team.

In short: This kind of action has the potential to smother modding as we know it to death, under a paywall pillow filled with cash, for the simple reason that so many mods share resources in very basic ways. It destroys the inter-connected resource and freeware concept that makes modding low-level accessable.

Remove that brick, the entire thing falls apart.

Looking at the nuclear option, and in conclusion:
If the SKSE team issued something like a no-monetization notice, legally, the entire skyrim mod platform Steam just set up could potentially implode.

Kellach Woods · **04-25-2015, 11:04 AM**

Not discussing the Valve cut since that's standardized across everything - Community items, actual games, etc. And unlike the Zenimax cut it's a lot fairer to the person actually doing the work. (It's also better than an actual retailer from what I remember as it's in between 25-30% of sale price)

75% is abusive, period. Keep in mind that they already got their cut from selling the game + any DLC. The assets do not suddenly stop existing because a modder made an edit (and as people have said - there are some mods that don't use much of anything and instead create stuff outright from scratch). That they're entitled to a cut, sure. The license doesn't grant modding rights, but 75% remains outright abusive. Is there a point to even create a paid mod or not overcharge the customer at that point if you want to actually monetize your work?

Doubt it.

Zenimax gon' kill this faster (for Skyrim/Fallout at least) than Valve'll buy an interesting mod's rights and turn it into a full fledged game.

Once the dust settles the program will likely be better overall for all parties involved but at this point the only way to win is not to play. Which is generally how I like anything Bethesda's ever made - not playing it.

(04-25-2015, 10:56 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: Looking at the nuclear option, and in conclusion:
If the SKSE team issued something like a no-monetization notice, legally, the entire skyrim mod platform Steam just set up could potentially implode.

The platform won't implode, it'll just take longer to be implemented, and quite frankly I almost wish the SKSE team would. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm saying it's currently horrible in the current incarnation because Valve did not remotely think about the ramifications that their platform will have.

It needs more time.

OttoVann · **04-25-2015, 11:11 AM**

SkyUI is going free / paid route with future updates. 5.0 will be 99 cents minimum.

Hammersmith · **04-25-2015, 11:14 AM**

(04-25-2015, 11:04 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(04-25-2015, 10:56 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: Looking at the nuclear option, and in conclusion:
If the SKSE team issued something like a no-monetization notice, legally, the entire skyrim mod platform Steam just set up could potentially implode.
The platform won't implode, it'll just take longer to be implemented, and quite frankly I almost wish the SKSE team would. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm saying it's currently horrible in the current incarnation because Valve did not remotely think about the ramifications that their platform will have.

Tell me that Early Access Fishing's guy would be willing to type up their own SKSE equivilent that has no intellectual property rights infringement and we'd have something to talk about.

But I doubt that, it's why there isn't a unique script extender packaged and written by every modder who ever put out a mod. Â Mods run on other people's work, to a massive degree. Â The more of the shared resources that go behind/refuse to be allowed behind a paywall can, and will, cripple the community of modding as we know it because it gates or denies things that make it very accessible to people new to it. (The same kind of people who one day would put out say: Mods that are longer and better than the base game in a lot of ways.)

I kind of hope this does swing one way or another very rapidly because I do consider this kind of pay-gating to be a cash grab, on the part of all parties involved because things like this:

OttoVann

Quote:SkyUI is going free / paid route with future updates. Â 5.0 will be 99 cents minimum.

Indicate the start of the destruction of the ability of people to make resource-dependent mods without paying additional costs in addition to the mod they want.

OttoVann · **04-25-2015, 11:22 AM**

You can just stick to 4.1 and not use 5.0. Just hope other modders don't want the 5.0 improvements or need them

SicketySix · **04-25-2015, 11:22 AM**

(04-25-2015, 07:54 AM)Desu Nee Wrote:
(04-25-2015, 06:41 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: Just seen through an IGN posting on Favebook, looks like they removed this whole scheme.
Nope it's here to stay. Valve knows PC Gamers have little places to turn? GoG? Origin?

They've already won, they hold the monopoly, and there is people who defend this.

I'll try to find the link, but somewhere someplace they did away with it.

OttoVann · **04-25-2015, 11:32 AM**

SkyUI is also open source, so make your own fork and give it away for free. If you lack the skills to do this, ask Titor or another person who can and just expect them to do it for free.

Kellach Woods · **04-25-2015, 12:01 PM**

(04-25-2015, 11:14 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: I kind of hope this does swing one way or another very rapidly because I do consider this kind of pay-gating to be a cash grab, on the part of all parties involved because things like this:

OttoVann

Quote:SkyUI is going free / paid route with future updates. Â 5.0 will be 99 cents minimum.

Indicate the start of the destruction of the ability of people to make resource-dependent mods without paying additional costs in addition to the mod they want.

Oh, it is completely a cash grab - one that's placated with the modders' ability to monetize their creations.

That's why my problem is more that there's not been an iota of thought as to the implementation. Valve straight up decided to dump this onto Steam.

Then again, that's not the first time this happened... THIS MONTH.

Warren Castille · **04-27-2015, 07:11 PM**

https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWo...5253244218

Valve Wrote:e're going to remove the payment feature from the Skyrim workshop. For anyone who spent money on a mod, we'll be refunding you the complete amount. We talked to the team at Bethesda and they agree.

We've done this because it's clear we didn't understand exactly what we were doing. We've been shipping many features over the years aimed at allowing community creators to receive a share of the rewards, and in the past, they've been received well. It's obvious now that this case is different.

To help you understand why we thought this was a good idea, our main goals were to allow mod makers the opportunity to work on their mods full time if they wanted to, and to encourage developers to provide better support to their mod communities. We thought this would result in better mods for everyone, both free & paid. We wanted more great mods becoming great products, like Dota, Counter-strike, DayZ, and Killing Floor, and we wanted that to happen organically for any mod maker who wanted to take a shot at it.

But we underestimated the differences between our previously successful revenue sharing models, and the addition of paid mods to Skyrim's workshop. We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. We think this made us miss the mark pretty badly, even though we believe there's a useful feature somewhere here.

Now that you've backed a dump truck of feedback onto our inboxes, we'll be chewing through that, but if you have any further thoughts let us know.

That's that, for now.

Desu Nee · **04-27-2015, 08:34 PM**

Yeah. I won't crucify Valve for this, but it's clear this was more out of overwhelming bad response, and bandwitch cluttering than anything, Gabe Newell was defending Paid Mods on reddit afterall.

Forgive, but do not forget. Thanks Warren.

Kellach Woods · **04-27-2015, 09:03 PM**

Valve Wrote:We've done this because it's clear we didn't understand exactly what we were doing. We've been shipping many features over the years aimed at allowing community creators to receive a share of the rewards, and in the past, they've been received well. It's obvious now that this case is different.

It's nice to hear you admit it, for once. If ONLY it was the only fiasco you had this month... grumblegrumble valve pls fix your streaming install process

Valve Wrote:To help you understand why we thought this was a good idea, our main goals were to allow mod makers the opportunity to work on their mods full time if they wanted to, and to encourage developers to provide better support to their mod communities. We thought this would result in better mods for everyone, both free & paid. We wanted more great mods becoming great products, like Dota, Counter-strike, DayZ, and Killing Floor, and we wanted that to happen organically for any mod maker who wanted to take a shot at it.

The reason these mods became products is because they were straight up bought and promoted up to full games once a full development team got behind it (okay - I admit that I'm ignorant about how DayZ and Killing Floor got converted from mod to full product, but Dota/CS is straight up that).

Valve Wrote:But we underestimated the differences between our previously successful revenue sharing models, and the addition of paid mods to Skyrim's workshop. We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. We think this made us miss the mark pretty badly, even though we believe there's a useful feature somewhere here.

Holy shit 3/3 Valve.

I'd crucify Valve for various other things long before this fiasco, but I'm honestly getting tired of the goodwill Valve gets just 'cause they're Valve.

Desu Nee · **04-27-2015, 10:12 PM**

(04-27-2015, 09:03 PM)undefined Wrote: Holy shit 3/3 Valve.

I'd crucify Valve for various other things long before this fiasco, but I'm honestly getting tired of the goodwill Valve gets just 'cause they're Valve.

I've gotten pretty tired as well. I won't crucify them as of now because this is the first MASSIVE fuck up, but my goodwill is pretty much gone. I'll keep using Steam, of course, but I will be looking other avenues too.

Cogito · **04-27-2015, 10:50 PM**

I do think mod-makers should be compensated for their work, and that a simple donation button is never going to let modmakers make a living off of their mods.

However this was the wrong way to do it for a number of reasons, I honestly didn't think valve would back down, as they have a tendency to not back down from their decisions, so this was very surprising to me.

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