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Melkire · **06-24-2015, 05:14 PM**

Someone else put it very well, imo. I'm going to quote them anonymously.

Quote:The problem is with people thinking that the phrase "everyone is entitled to RP how they want" is interchangeable with "everyone is obligated to tolerate my RP".

Aya · **06-24-2015, 05:15 PM**

(06-24-2015, 05:02 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Am I limiting it, though? I certainly won't tell you that you can't play a waitress, or a model. If someone wants to be Eorzea's greatest plumber, shine on you crazy diamond. Those things are outside the scope of the game, though. The game is about high fantasy swords and sorcery, so most people are going to make characters suited for that in order to maximize their story potential. So if you're making a character in line with the scope of the game, why would your power not be in some way, even on a severe sliding scale, tied to their in game avatar?

Could someone have played a knife fighter prior to the rogue class?Â A gunfighter prior to the Machinist, a two-handed swordsman prior to the Dark Knight?Â Could someone dual wield swords, fight with a rapier and dagger, fight with a saber and an open-hand?Â What about someone that wants to use a blowgun, or a sling?Â What about a whip or someone specialization in ground-fighting or grappling rather than the pummeling strikes of the traditional pugilist?Â What about a cat burglar, a forest scout, or chocobo-mounted cavalryman with a lance (but not exactly a lancer in FF terms)?Â

Are these verboten without having a class of appropriate level to back it up?Â If they're not, then what relevance, really, is the class?

I understand the idea of not wanting to invest much energy in RP with someone who you don't feel confident will be worth the investment (and if you find, somehow, that level is a truly important indicator for judging that, then so be it!).Â But this idea that somehow willing to accept in RP that a character can be more than the stats of their stand-in-avatar, means we should shuffle back to the forum RP hole we crawled out of, is pretty much ridiculous; not to mention that the attitude behind the remark cuts-off an immense amount of potential RP and fun.Â Â

As a pure hypothetical I'd rather spend all of my time with fun and enjoyable level 1 RPers, than the most accomplished but boring level 60's.Â In essence, I put fun foremost, have no trouble resorting to my imagination, and really try not to be bothered by anything that is irrelevant to what I'm actually doing.Â I would much rather spend my time imagining that the starting-gear-clad person is garbed in the fancy outfit of a wealthy nobleman, than trying to pretend that the bore is actually fun to RP with.

You really don't have to do the same, but I don't see any reason to go on the offensive against people daring to pretend while role playing.

Edit: For that matter, Aya typically stands 4-6" taller than her avatar due to being two inches taller (5' 10") than the maximum Midlander female height, and enjoying wearing high heels. I can't possibly represent this in-game due to the strict limitations of the engine we're given to play in. Should I simply forgo that aspect of her physical characteristics so that no one is challenged to imagine her standing taller than they see in game? How is that, really, any different a case?

Caspar · **06-24-2015, 05:34 PM**

(06-24-2015, 05:14 PM)Melkire Wrote: Someone else put it very well, imo. I'm going to quote them anonymously.

Quote:The problem is with people thinking that the phrase "everyone is entitled to RP how they want" is interchangeable with "everyone is obligated to tolerate my RP".

The impression that I get from this, and I may be wrong, is that people think I believe being permissive of others rp and being open minded mean accepting any and all character concepts, when in reality I just meant to point out the inconsistency inherent in being "rigidly permissible" of some martial supernatural powers and not others, for the sake of argument. Sorry if that frayed your nerves. It is a pet peeve of mine that people unevenly apply realism to things in a fantasy setting that is inconsistent in its level of grittiness, and I could not help but compare to the hypocricy of the old d&d player who permits his wizard to fly and summon meteors, but disallows the fighter his flaming sword. You're welcome to play with who you want, but I'd hope the new playerbase is judged on creativity and synergy with the setting, rathe than what entertainment motifs or cultural themes a players' concept has that you like or dislike. More so than anything else, I'd hate to see a player be restricted to applying their character'a abilities only in the narrow way the in-game skill set allows

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 05:51 PM**

(06-24-2015, 05:15 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 05:02 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Am I limiting it, though? I certainly won't tell you that you can't play a waitress, or a model. If someone wants to be Eorzea's greatest plumber, shine on you crazy diamond. Those things are outside the scope of the game, though. The game is about high fantasy swords and sorcery, so most people are going to make characters suited for that in order to maximize their story potential. So if you're making a character in line with the scope of the game, why would your power not be in some way, even on a severe sliding scale, tied to their in game avatar?
Could someone have played a knife fighter prior to the rogue class?Â A gunfighter prior to the Machinist, a two-handed swordsman prior to the Dark Knight?Â Could someone dual wield swords, fight with a rapier and dagger, fight with a saber and an open-hand?Â What about someone that wants to use a blowgun, or a sling?Â What about a whip or someone specialization in ground-fighting or grappling rather than the pummeling strikes of the traditional pugilist?Â What about a cat burglar, a forest scout, or chocobo-mounted cavalryman with a lance (but not exactly a lancer in FF terms)?Â

Are these verboten without having a class of appropriate level to back it up?Â If they're not, then what relevance, really, is the class?

I understand the idea of not wanting to invest much energy in RP with someone who you don't feel confident will be worth the investment (and if you find, somehow, that level is a truly important indicator for judging that, then so be it!).Â But this idea that somehow willing to accept in RP that a character can be more than the stats of their stand-in-avatar, means we should shuffle back to the forum RP hole we crawled out of, is pretty much ridiculous; not to mention that the attitude behind the remark cuts-off an immense amount of potential RP and fun.Â Â

As a pure hypothetical I'd rather spend all of my time with fun and enjoyable level 1 RPers, than the most accomplished but boring level 60's.Â In essence, I put fun foremost, have no trouble resorting to my imagination, and really try not to be bothered by anything that is irrelevant to what I'm actually doing.Â I would much rather spend my time imagining that the starting-gear-clad person is garbed in the fancy outfit of a wealthy nobleman, than trying to pretend that the bore is actually fun to RP with.

You really don't have to do the same, but I don't see any reason to go on the offensive against people daring to pretend while role playing.

Edit: For that matter, Aya typically stands 4-6" taller than her avatar due to being two inches taller (5' 10") than the maximum Midlander female height, and enjoying wearing high heels. I can't possibly represent this in-game due to the strict limitations of the engine we're given to play in. Should I simply forgo that aspect of her physical characteristics so that no one is challenged to imagine her standing taller than they see in game? How is that, really, any different a case?

For all these examples, I say this: The gameplay vs. lore argument is entirely different from level vs. RP. If someone wants to RP a different kind of combat than what is offered, they can level up the closest job and at least make an attempt to look the part of what they're trying to play. A knife-fighter before Rogue could equip knives, because before Rogue, Gladiators had access to knives. People can RP weapons that aren't represented just fine. Dogberry himself has used a pistol in the past, before Machinist, because he was a member of a military organization that uses guns, and fights like an MMA fighter.

I can't help but feel that you're putting words in my mouth. When did I say I'd never RP with level 1 characters?

Aya · **06-24-2015, 05:58 PM**

(06-24-2015, 05:51 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I can't help but feel that you're putting words in my mouth. When did I say I'd never RP with level 1 characters?

Its not that you said you wouldn't RP with level 1 characters, its that you said level 1 characters should not even bother RPing in this game (though I realize that may be tongue-in-cheek, that's what I'm replying to).

Dogberry Wrote:If you're going to RP a character and not level them, why even subscribe to the game? You'd probably be a lot better suited doing forum RP. Gaia Online is over there, bro.

Verad · **06-24-2015, 05:58 PM**

(06-24-2015, 05:06 PM)Graeham Wrote: I don't think anybody is trying to dictate what anybody else should be doing. They're simply stating that if someone takes massive liberties with the lore then they shouldn't be surprised if their character raises eyebrows/leads people to cease interaction with them.

It's a lot like in real life. If I go to a restaurant and there's someone slurping loudly whilst eating their soup they're not technically doing anything wrong but they're still - understandably - going to be judged and potentially avoided for it.

Not the best example, perhaps, but hopefully people understand what I'm getting at.Â

Socially-enforced censorship, yes.

Melkire · **06-24-2015, 05:59 PM**

(06-24-2015, 05:34 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 05:14 PM)Melkire Wrote: Someone else put it very well, imo. I'm going to quote them anonymously.

Quote:The problem is with people thinking that the phrase "everyone is entitled to RP how they want" is interchangeable with "everyone is obligated to tolerate my RP".
The impression that I get from this, and I may be wrong, is that people think I believe being permissive of others rp and being open minded mean accepting any and all character concepts, when in reality I just meant to point out the inconsistency inherent in being "rigidly permissible" of some martial supernatural powers and not others, for the sake of argument. Sorry if that frayed your nerves. It is a pet peeve of mine that people unevenly apply realism to things in a fantasy setting that is inconsistent in its level of grittiness, and I could not help but compare to the hypocricy of the old d&d player who permits his wizard to fly and summon meteors, but disallows the fighter his flaming sword. You're welcome to play with who you want, but I'd hope the new playerbase is judged on creativity and synergy with the setting, rathe than what entertainment motifs or cultural themes a players' concept has that you like or dislike. More so than anything else, I'd hate to see a player be restricted to applying their character'a abilities only in the narrow way the in-game skill set allows

First and foremost, the comment I quoted wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular, nor was my intent in quoting it directed at anyone.

Secondly: I've roleplayed with many a player whose character was capable of more than the narrow depiction provided by the in-game skill sets. Conjurers capable of redirecting flames and calling down thunder, or else starting a mobile whirlwind with themselves as the center. Arcanists who circumvented the need for grimoires. Paladins who wielded lances with their shields rather than swords.

My original contention was that, if someone is going to pick up and use a FFXIV label ICly, then they should be familiar with and cognizant of what that label entails, the extent of capabilities implied by that label, and what capabilities that character may have that falls outside or beyond that label. If I'm playing a pugilist who can also see through walls, I should be mindful that the label "pugilist" as understood and interpreted by most XIV roleplayers isn't going to include "seeing through walls" as a capability, and I should strive to communicate that well in my writing / emoting / etc.

Glancing at someone's level when they ICly claim to be a pugilist, or a gladiator, or a thaumaturge is a poor-but-still-useful indicator of how much knowledge I can expect, at a glance, someone to have regarding the class/job they're roleplaying as... assuming they're even bothering with it to begin with, as I've RP'd with folks who roleplayed as class A despite not having it and their avatar showing class B.

If I encounter seeing-through-walls pugilist, and that comes out in our interactions, I'm going to glance at their PGL/MNK level to see how far they've progressed. It's a quick check to see whether they've played through the class/job/quests as a gauge of how familiar they might be. If it's lower than expected, or if they don't have very many classes leveled, I might send them tells asking them whether they're new to the game, whether they're familiar with pugilists, and whether this strange capability of their character's is something unique to the character or if they're interpreting "pugilist" differently than I am. If I see the inverse - if MNK is maxed and there's a decent number of classes leveled, which implies familiarity with XIV, its setting, and its lore - then I might just shrug it off and roll with it, or I might still send those tells.

I roleplayed with someone within the past few weeks. Prior to HW's release, they wanted to roleplay out a scene in which their character showed off a greatsword. We had that scene without issues. A few days later, they were running an IC dungeon/instance with some friends and I, and politely asked that we pretend that their axe was in fact a greatsword. Again, no issues.

Out-of-character communication is important in roleplaying. I use out-of-character accomplishments - levels, classes leveled, jobs acquired, gear worn, titles used, etc. - to try and get a feel for both the player and the character, and that feeling is then used to prompt OoC communication. Or, in the case of Pinkie Pie Miqo'te, I might just walk.

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 06:02 PM**

(06-24-2015, 05:58 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 05:51 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I can't help but feel that you're putting words in my mouth. When did I say I'd never RP with level 1 characters?
Its not that you said you wouldn't RP with level 1 characters, its that you said level 1 characters should not even bother RPing in this game (though I realize that may be tongue-in-cheek, that's what I'm replying to).

Dogberry Wrote:If you're going to RP a character and not level them, why even subscribe to the game? You'd probably be a lot better suited doing forum RP. Gaia Online is over there, bro.

You didn't read anything else I wrote beyond that, did you?

Aya · **06-24-2015, 06:08 PM**

(06-24-2015, 06:02 PM)Dogberry Wrote: You didn't read anything else I wrote beyond that, did you?

I've read the entirety of your posts I've responded to!

I just entirely disagree on the idea that RP concepts should be tied to the avatar.Â I think the FF XIV character is a very very poor construct for RP, and virtually useless for any RP that I'm really interested in partaking in.Â Whether or not I like a character concept is entirely independent of the class levels, gear, etc. of the character trying to pull it off.

Osric's point is entirely different, its based upon knowledge, cohesion with the lore, and plausible suspension of disbelief.Â I don't really agree with him that class level correlates well to the ability to craft an interesting and believable character (even of that class), but I definitely understand where he's coming from.Â I've just RPed with enough alts, and NPC-alts that I really couldn't care less if the avatar I'm RPing with is even the same race as that of the character.

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 06:10 PM**

(06-24-2015, 06:08 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 06:02 PM)Dogberry Wrote: You didn't read anything else I wrote beyond that, did you?
I've read the entirety of your posts I've responded to!

I just entirely disagree on the idea that RP concepts should be tied to the avatar.Â I think the FF XIV character is a very very poor construct for RP, and virtually useless for any RP that I'm really interested in partaking in.Â Whether or not I like a character concept is entirely independent of the class levels, gear, etc. of the character trying to pull it off.

Osric's point is entirely different, its based upon knowledge, cohesion with the lore, and plausible suspension of disbelief.Â I don't really agree with him that class level correlates well to the ability to craft an interesting and believable character (even of that class), I definitely understand where he's coming from.Â I've just RPed with enough alts, and NPC-alts that I really couldn't care less if the avatar I'm RPing with is even the same race as that of the character.

Go back and read the stuff I wrote in posts you didn't respond to and you'll see what I'm trying to say laid out more clearly.

Aya · **06-24-2015, 06:18 PM**

(06-24-2015, 06:10 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Go back and read the stuff I wrote in posts you didn't respond to and you'll see what I'm trying to say laid out more clearly.

I have been, and I don't really see how its any different from how I categorized it.Â You'e worried about the look, and kit of characters representing their role correctly.Â I really think its entirely unnecessary (which is why I said what I did about a level 1 in starter clothes RPing as if in fancy noble attire).Â

Maybe its just because I am a pen-and-paper and forum RPer at heart.Â I feel that the avatar should be, at most, a visual-aid for RP when appropriate, but that its the text that is canonical, important, and interesting for RP.Â If the avatar is useless as a visual aid, I really don't mind, I am more than willing to go along with it, if I'm enjoying the RP.

To me, the avatar is a tool, not a limitation.Â I see far more possibility for fun that way, and wouldn't have it any other way.Â I know you at least understand that, since you're willing to RP classes that simply don't exist.Â So I can't fully understand why you apply a different rubric to those that do.Â To me, they're completely the same.Â What matters is the RP world, not the game-as-game.Â

I really want to say, again, that I'm not trying to convince you to do otherwise.Â It really is to each their own, enjoyment of RP is an entirely subjective matter.Â The only thing I took any exception to, whatsoever, was the suggestion that people who don't want to level a character to RP it, shouldn't bother with MMO RP.

Edit: I will just add that I do like it when the visual aid is there! Its fun RPing with people who put a lot of effort into their look, their outfits, gear, and fashion (obviously I do quite a bit of this myself!) I just understand the innate limitations of the game engine's ability to portray our characters.

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 06:38 PM**

(06-24-2015, 06:18 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 06:10 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Go back and read the stuff I wrote in posts you didn't respond to and you'll see what I'm trying to say laid out more clearly.
I have been, and I don't really see how its any different from how I categorized it.Â You'e worried about the look, and kit of characters representing their role correctly.Â I really think its entirely unnecessary (which is why I said what I did about a level 1 in starter clothes RPing as if in fancy noble attire).Â

Maybe its just because I am a pen-and-paper and forum RPer at heart.Â I feel that the avatar should be, at most, a visual-aid for RP when appropriate, but that its the text that is canonical, important, and interesting for RP.Â If the avatar is useless as a visual aid, I really don't mind, I am more than willing to go along with it, if I'm enjoying the RP.

To me, the avatar is a tool, not a limitation.Â I see far more possibility for fun that way, and wouldn't have it any other way.Â I know you at least understand that, since you're willing to RP classes that simply don't exist.Â So I can't fully understand why you apply a different rubric to those that do.Â To me, they're completely the same.Â What matters is the RP world, not the game-as-game.Â

I really want to say, again, that I'm not trying to convince you to do otherwise.Â It really is to each their own, enjoyment of RP is an entirely subjective matter.Â The only thing I took any exception to, whatsoever, was the suggestion that people who don't want to level a character to RP it, shouldn't bother with MMO RP.

See, I'm an avid pen and paper RPer as well, and I think this informs a large part of my RP. In Pen and Paper games, you have a character sheet that defines what your character can and can't do.

Likewise, I also see the avatar as a tool. As I've said, it is a puppet. If you can't be bothered to make your puppet look like the thing you want it to be, why should your character have any pull any kind of weight in my RP?

One of my favorite pen and paper RPGs, in fact, is called Argyle and Crew, and in the game your character sheet is a sock puppet. You're given two attributes that you can costume onto your sock puppet. So if your character is a wizard, you make a little paper wizard hat and put it on your sock puppet. If your character is also a sherriff, they get a sheriff badge, too. So your sock puppet, who you've put time into by making it look like the best wizard sheriff you can possibly make, gets to be a wizard and a sheriff for the game, and this informs what you can do to affect the story.

I see our characters a lot like sock puppets in Argyle and Crew. Someone who looks like a wizard is going to be seen as a wizard regardless of level. They put in the effort to look the part, they get to be the part. Taking it further, a character in higher level gear is wearing something more befitting a master than someone in Plundered gear. So someone in Plundered gear could very well be a master, but he looks like a scrub, and my character will respond accordingly.

Edit: I should also add that Forum RP bores me to tears.

Verad · **06-24-2015, 06:46 PM**

(06-24-2015, 06:38 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I see our characters a lot like sock puppets in Argyle and Crew. Someone who looks like a wizard is going to be seen as a wizard regardless of level. They put in the effort to look the part, they get to be the part. Taking it further, a character in higher level gear is wearing something more befitting a master than someone in Plundered gear. So someone in Plundered gear could very well be a master, but he looks like a scrub, and my character will respond accordingly.

Edit: I should also add that Forum RP bores me to tears.

That's all well and good, but you also made it clear in earlier posts that you would overwrite attributes of the character - finding flaws in their stance in the Lvl 1 Pugilist, even if they were playing a master.

Not only is your character responding accordingly, which could be plausible - perhaps they are surprised when the Lvl 1 Pugilist turns out to be a much better fighter than expected - but you, on an OOC level, are responding to the character as if they are weak, eliminating or ignoring traits they may display in RP to the contrary.

That is to say, if the Lvl 1 Pugilist responded with a Dragon Kick, would it be fair to say you would either play the Dragon Kick as being necessarily weak because of course a Lvl 1 Pugilist can't do that well, or would you take the more common route of just pretending the character is insane and ignoring the move? This is admittedly a bit of a false dichotomy, because in both cases your reaction has gone beyond your character's and into rewriting reality to fit your character's perceptions.

Aya · **06-24-2015, 06:49 PM**

well, ultimately we all have our own interests and desires for RP, and ours don't necessarily accord Smile

I'm not very picky about what other characters look like, and I'm happy to keep it that way!

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 06:53 PM**

(06-24-2015, 06:46 PM)Verad Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 06:38 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I see our characters a lot like sock puppets in Argyle and Crew. Someone who looks like a wizard is going to be seen as a wizard regardless of level. They put in the effort to look the part, they get to be the part. Taking it further, a character in higher level gear is wearing something more befitting a master than someone in Plundered gear. So someone in Plundered gear could very well be a master, but he looks like a scrub, and my character will respond accordingly.

Edit: I should also add that Forum RP bores me to tears.

That's all well and good, but you also made it clear in earlier posts that you would overwrite attributes of the character - finding flaws in their stance in the Lvl 1 Pugilist, even if they were playing a master.

Not only is your character responding accordingly, which could be plausible - perhaps they are surprised when the Lvl 1 Pugilist turns out to be a much better fighter than expected - but you, on an OOC level, are responding to the character as if they are weak, eliminating or ignoring traits they may display in RP to the contrary.

That is to say, if the Lvl 1 Pugilist responded with a Dragon Kick, would it be fair to say you would either play the Dragon Kick as being necessarily weak because of course a Lvl 1 Pugilist can't do that well, or would you take the more common route of just pretending the character is insane and ignoring the move? This is admittedly a bit of a false dichotomy, because in both cases your reaction has gone beyond your character's and into rewriting reality to fit your character's perceptions.

Honestly? I simply don't think anyone at level 1 should be claiming mastery. It makes me not even want to bother with the person. They're clearly playing a different game than I am, the one where they get the instant gratification macho power fantasy based on arbitrary parameters, as opposed to the one I'm playing, the one where I get the delayed gratification macho power fantasy based on arbitrary parameters.

Edit: And to actually answer the question... If the Level 1 Pugilist emotes a Dragon Kick, and it hits through the roll off, the Dragon kick hits, and it might even be powerful, but it was bad form. Bad form kicks still hurt.

Poll: How important is OOC level/Achievement? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Not important at all.	55.56%	60	55.56%
Somewhat important.	37.04%	40	37.04%
Very important.	7.41%	8	7.41%
Total		108 vote(s)	100%

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How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly?

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