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McBeefâ„¢ · **07-07-2015, 03:57 PM**

So in a recent thread about Garlean stuff I got to thinking. There are a lot of politics and fuzzy things going on in Eorzea, and unlike a lot of games, the developers don't explicitly mark things as good or evil.

A lot of stuff is up for debate! Or at least in my mind it is. Anyway this thread is to OOCly argue about different political issues and tidbits in Eorzea, because its fun. Remember, don't take things too seriously, and be careful to not let this drip into even messier IRL politics.

Some good example topics include...

Are the residents of the Shroud protected by the Elementals? Or are they merely being used by them.

Who holds real power in Ul'dah? Who /should/ hold real power?

Garleans, villains or heroes?

Ala Mhigan Refugees... what to do with them?

etc etc.

I'll start off by saying that I think Ul'dah would be run better with the monetarists (lolorito) in charge. Which is good because he is in charge of Ul'dah, and has decided to keep Nanamo around merely as a figurehead, and so the Immortal Flames do not rebel.

V'aleera · **07-07-2015, 05:45 PM**

I've yet to see a situation occur in the lore where the Monetarists demonstrate the value of their existence. All they do is bicker and fight amongst themselves for wealth (or sit on the sidelines while others do so) while allowing everything else to go to crap around them. Teledji is the most egregious example, but Lolorito is guilty of the same; he not only engages in practices which undermine the existence of any competition (in the city that supposedly believes competition creates prosperity) he also is willing to crack down on progressive and profitable advancements in the Sultanate for the sole purpose of stymieing the success of his rivals (Little Ala Mhigo).

He's lucky Nanamo is so nice, because the actions he's confessed to committing paint him as being just as guilty of high treason as he claims Raubahn is.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-07-2015, 05:50 PM**

(07-07-2015, 05:45 PM)Intaki Wrote: I've yet to see a situation occur in the lore where the Monetarists demonstrate the value of their existence.

Well... they pay all the bills.

If it wasn't for them the Refugees wouldn't get fed, the roads wouldn't stay open, etc etc.

The Sultana has money, but it only comes from a treasury, and treasuries run out. Most of her arguments with the monetarists are trying to weasel more money out of them, eg: the Domans.

Griffith! · **07-07-2015, 05:54 PM**

I'm with Intaki - bankroll does not good leadership make. They may have the coin, but they don't seem like very good leaders. In fact, they seem pretty selfish, looking for power for power's sake, while the Sultana genuinely wants to help.

V'aleera · **07-07-2015, 05:56 PM**

(07-07-2015, 05:50 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well... they pay all the bills.

If it wasn't for them the Refugees wouldn't get fed, the roads wouldn't stay open, etc etc.

Do they create value because they pay the bills, or do they pay the bills because they've hoarded all of the value and no one else can?

And let's talk about the lower peoples getting fed and the roads staying open: do these things not also greatly benefit the Monetarists? Roads open means more trade, which means more money. And when you stop feeding the masses, you end up with a lot of angry masses. Bad for Monetarist business, and bad for Monetarist life expectancy.

Much like the grunts in Office Space the Monetarists aren't contributing because they care or because they want to; they're working hard (or paying) just enough not to get fired (with a guillotine).

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-07-2015, 05:56 PM**

(07-07-2015, 05:54 PM)Griffith! Wrote: I'm with Intaki - bankroll does not good leadership make. They may have the coin, but they don't seem like very good leaders. In fact, they seem pretty selfish, looking for power for power's sake, while the Sultana genuinely wants to help.

Yes, but someone has to pay for that help.

The Monetarists bankroll her good intentions, when they don't have to. I think the Monetarists are patriots in their own way, and look out for the long term health of Ul'dah. I hope Lolorito gets some redemption down the line, I think he's a deeper character than we've seen so far.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-07-2015, 06:01 PM**

(07-07-2015, 05:56 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(07-07-2015, 05:50 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well... they pay all the bills.

If it wasn't for them the Refugees wouldn't get fed, the roads wouldn't stay open, etc etc.
Do they create value because they pay the bills, or do they pay the bills because they've hoarded all of the value and no one else can?

And let's talk about the lower peoples getting fed and the roads staying open: do these things not also greatly benefit the Monetarists? Roads open means more trade, which means more money. And when you stop feeding the masses, you end up with a lot of angry masses. Bad for Monetarist business, and bad for Monetarist life expectancy.

Much like the grunts in Office Space the Monetarists aren't contributing because they care or because they want to; they're working hard (or paying) just enough not to get fired (with a guillotine).

Well to be fair, this never was an issue before. The Lore of Ul'dah (that the narrator says when you make a character) implies that such wealth inequality was not an issue in the past.

People had more or less, but everyone felt the playing field was equal, and there was not much crushing poverty.

However the refugees were a cloud of cheap unskilled labor, without the skills to make it in Ul'dahs work force. The monetarists are likely not used to paying for social services, and the city is in some sort of state of transition. Yes the money they pay helps them in the long run, but they're paying far more than they did before. A burden that no other City State has been willing to do.

Griffith! · **07-07-2015, 06:04 PM**

(07-07-2015, 05:56 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Yes, but someone has to pay for that help.

The Monetarists bankroll her good intentions, when they don't have to. I think the Monetarists are patriots in their own way, and look out for the long term health of Ul'dah. I hope Lolorito gets some redemption down the line, I think he's a deeper character than we've seen so far.

That's all well and good, but if they were in charge, would they help, independent of the Sultana's good intentions? Or would they just do the bare minimum and continue furthering their own goals? Just because they're funding the Sultana's efforts now doesn't mean they would inherit her goodwill later.

There's no guarantee they'd support the refugees in the long term. Maintain the nation? Yeah, probably. But only insofar as it helps them to stay in power. I just don't see the monetarists - Lolorito included - going the extra mile.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-07-2015, 06:17 PM**

(07-07-2015, 06:04 PM)Griffith! Wrote:
(07-07-2015, 05:56 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Yes, but someone has to pay for that help.

The Monetarists bankroll her good intentions, when they don't have to. I think the Monetarists are patriots in their own way, and look out for the long term health of Ul'dah. I hope Lolorito gets some redemption down the line, I think he's a deeper character than we've seen so far.

That's all well and good, but if they were in charge, would they help, independent of the Sultana's good intentions? Or would they just do the bare minimum and continue furthering their own goals? Just because they're funding the Sultana's efforts now doesn't mean they would inherit her goodwill later.

There's no guarantee they'd support the refugees in the long term. Maintain the nation? Yeah, probably. But only insofar as it helps them to stay in power. I just don't see the monetarists - Lolorito included - going the extra mile.

Yes, but why should they?

Ala Mhigo was an enemy within living memory, the Shroud turned them away, Ul'dah didn't.

If I was a monetarist I certainly wouldn't think I had any obligation to spill out my profits on my prior enemies. I think they can see that the stability of supporting them is better than the chaos of them rioting though.

Kellach Woods · **07-07-2015, 06:36 PM**

I honestly have no clue what exactly the monetarists are actually doing in Ul'dah for the refugees or whatever.

Like, we only have their word and let's be real none of their greedy asses actually want the refugees around other than as slave labor (other than Teledji and even then it was as cannon fodder).

They do about as much as the Elementals do for Gridania.

V'aleera · **07-07-2015, 06:43 PM**

(07-07-2015, 06:17 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Ala Mhigo was an enemy within living memory

I don't think a war that happened 100 years in the past qualifies as living memory. Tongue

Also keep in mind that the Limsan pirates were a much more recent enemy of Ul'dah than the Ala Mhigans and yet they're accepted as an ally.

Seriphyn · **07-07-2015, 06:45 PM**

The dialogue repeatedly states that while Lolorito desires power (as does any human), he equally values stability.

I mean, sure, we can pretend nation-states are run by moustache-twirling villains rather than nuanced individuals who may/may not have justified their own patriotic morality.

Kellach Woods · **07-07-2015, 06:46 PM**

On that front it's more of a way to secure the trade routes and ensure that Limsa pirates no longer attack Ul'dahn vessels for piracy.

Ala Mhigo had just gotten destroyed, they have no advantage to hold over Ul'dah as that is the only thing the city recognizes.

Verad · **07-07-2015, 06:48 PM**

(07-07-2015, 06:45 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: The dialogue repeatedly states that while Lolorito desires power (as does any human), he equally values stability.

I mean, sure, we can pretend nation-states are run by moustache-twirling villains rather than nuanced individuals who may/may not have justified their own patriotic morality.

Well, since you gave me permission - that's one hell of a moustache-twirling villain. For somebody who values stability, he has made a specific point of not working to bring Ul'dah into the Garlean fold. There's not even an argument against him losing power within those circumstances, because we have seen non-Garlean characters earning acclaim and power within their ranks.

Sometimes these characters aren't actually thatÂ nuanced, but we justify them as such because we'd really prefer them to be. It gives us the story we want in our heads.

Griffith! · **07-07-2015, 06:48 PM**

I will say this, though - Ul'dah would be more stable with the monetarists in charge, if only because the monetarists would stop making trouble. One ruler is always more stable than two competing factions.

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