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SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 10:15 AM**

I would also make sure you know 100% who you're RPing with. Like someone else here mentioned no one wants to lose to a villain 100% of the time, but changing their character's personality OOCly so they don't get affected by manipulations or machinations isn't fair to you, and if for some reason people start making it out that your RP choices as the villain are insignificant or not worth RPing they'll undo all your hard work.Â

I've been the bad guy in several RPs on several different games. In one of them its been enjoyable the entire way through. In most you just have someone strong enough to stop you just happen to start meditating outside your house and then when you're leaving get the feeling you're up to something. Or they'll call for help OOCly in their LS or FC and not make mention of it to you OOCly or ICly so suddenly you're surrounded by 15 people for no reason. Or they'll refuse to RP, or tell you by slandering their character's name and coming after them you're griefing their plot and they'll stop RPing with you if you don't fall into lockstep with them.Â

Finding the right people is the most important thing.

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 10:49 AM**

(09-15-2015, 10:13 AM)Caspar Wrote: That's why they make good NPCs. Granted, a straight up evil villain with a background that explains why they are who they are is no worse than any "criminal" in terms of characterization; that's a matter of taste. If anything I think it makes the monstrous type more interesting. You can look at their backstory, see what happened to them, and realize you still cannot forgive their actions in the present.

Characters aren't people. They *resemble people* and the degree to which other players and readers of your rp sympathize with them can be increased by making them resemble people more. Likewise, the amount they hate them can be as well. Narrative focus may necessitate more or less background attention as their role in a planned plotline may require. If you've going to make your main rp character a villain, having that extra depth will probably reward you just due to diversity of play and the entertainment that comes from doing so. If it is an alt or NPC, you can somewhat get away with not explaining every element of their background, though of course, if you desire to do so go for it. In my case, I've got the background of my plotline NPCs determined from their youth to the present, and there are some who are still completely unsympathetic out and out villains. However, I think that's just me being obsessive, lol.

A lot of that background will only see the light of day in my supplementary fiction that I write occasionally alongside the rp. I figure it's not always the case that the heroes are privy to every detail of the enemy's life. They can find this information if they pry with certain NPCs, but obviously some things the characters will never know. This may enhance the enemy's tragic qualities on the players OOCly, which is something I'd like to test out.

That's why, when anyone ever says that they want to play a villain, my first advice is to watch the entirety of The Wire, if they haven't already. Â David Simon created a show almost completely filled with moral ambiguity done right, and created villains that people relate to so well that they often don't realize they're talking about a villainous character.

Now that's how it's done right. Â So much more mileage out of that than your common everyday Skeletor.

Warren Castille · **09-15-2015, 02:54 PM**

(09-14-2015, 11:48 PM)That Guy Wrote: stuff

The challenge you're being seated with is that there are definitive win/lose conditions for that sort of RP. If your character succeeds, then someone's PC has to die. If you don't succeed, though, you look like a loser (as you mentioned).

There's not a lot of wiggle room for RP to happen, at least not as far as definite progression goes. Your character won't suddenly feel pity due to his beliefs and your quarry won't suddenly find a way to ignore their backstory if they get caught. Those sorts of situations tend to favor the status quo: i.e., no one dies and we can all keep RPing. As a result, you're kind of hosed.

Rock and a hard place, man. Especially when you're trying to hunt down someone who hypothetically has an entire household of swords to watch out for them, who hypothetically are somewhat established as Tough Guys in the general RP space.

Playing any anti-character role relies on your opposition giving you allowances, and be-all-end-all conditions are the harshest methods of it. It can only end one way or the other, and one of those means someone's character, time and effort all go to waste.

That Guy · **09-15-2015, 04:16 PM**

*points above* that about sums it up. Though I haven't run into the issue of someone having too many powerful friends (though that is something to consider) I have been told upfront that no, my character can't really do anything. Which is fine, really. My character might be an ass but I'm not. It's kind of rude to kill off someone's character but again, as said, rock and hard place.Â

How do bounty hunters get around this? I see a lot of people rping that.

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 04:22 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:16 PM)That Guy Wrote: *points above* that about sums it up. Though I haven't run into the issue of someone having too many powerful friends (though that is something to consider) I have been told upfront that no, my character can't really do anything. Which is fine, really. My character might be an ass but I'm not. It's kind of rude to kill off someone's character but again, as said, rock and hard place.Â

How do bounty hunters get around this? I see a lot of people rping that.

I'm kind of a dick when it comes to hunting people down. I don't necessarily kill leads, but my character isn't above pain and intimidation to get what he wants. If I catch the person I can only do what I've been told to do ICly. Its nothing personal, they can take it up with the bounty dude OOCly and he can get back to me.Â

I assume its the same for others, if not I'll find out soon. I hired like 6 assassins to kill someone in the roses FC this weekend. Dude's a whore, not sure how he's going to handle someone actively trying to ruin his life and slander his reputation. (Forgot to note I also hired people to lie about his character and make him look awful ICly.)

[Image: image.jpg]

Verad · **09-15-2015, 04:25 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:22 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: I'm kind of a dick when it comes to hunting people down. I don't necessarily kill leads, but my character isn't above pain and intimidation to get what he wants. If I catch the person I can only do what I've been told to do ICly. Its nothing personal, they can take it up with the bounty dude OOCly and he can get back to me.Â

I assume its the same for others, if not I'll find out soon. I hired like 6 assassins to kill someone in the roses FC this weekend. Dude's a whore, not sure how he's going to handle someone actively trying to ruin his life and slander his reputation. (Forgot to note I also hired people to lie about his character and make him look awful ICly.)

I realize you're pointing this out as a matter of pride, and that's why you don't sound like a fun person to play with.

Caspar · **09-15-2015, 04:26 PM**

(09-15-2015, 10:49 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 10:13 AM)Caspar Wrote: That's why they make good NPCs. Granted, a straight up evil villain with a background that explains why they are who they are is no worse than any "criminal" in terms of characterization; that's a matter of taste. If anything I think it makes the monstrous type more interesting. You can look at their backstory, see what happened to them, and realize you still cannot forgive their actions in the present.

Characters aren't people. They *resemble people* and the degree to which other players and readers of your rp sympathize with them can be increased by making them resemble people more. Likewise, the amount they hate them can be as well. Narrative focus may necessitate more or less background attention as their role in a planned plotline may require. If you've going to make your main rp character a villain, having that extra depth will probably reward you just due to diversity of play and the entertainment that comes from doing so. If it is an alt or NPC, you can somewhat get away with not explaining every element of their background, though of course, if you desire to do so go for it. In my case, I've got the background of my plotline NPCs determined from their youth to the present, and there are some who are still completely unsympathetic out and out villains. However, I think that's just me being obsessive, lol.

A lot of that background will only see the light of day in my supplementary fiction that I write occasionally alongside the rp. I figure it's not always the case that the heroes are privy to every detail of the enemy's life. They can find this information if they pry with certain NPCs, but obviously some things the characters will never know. This may enhance the enemy's tragic qualities on the players OOCly, which is something I'd like to test out.

That's why, when anyone ever says that they want to play a villain, my first advice is to watch the entirety of The Wire, if they haven't already. Â David Simon created a show almost completely filled with moral ambiguity done right, and created villains that people relate to so well that they often don't realize they're talking about a villainous character.

Now that's how it's done right. Â So much more mileage out of that than your common everyday Skeletor.

Execution definitely matters a lot. It would make me very happy, for instance, if I can make RPers both revile and pity villain A, debate on the morality of Villain B, hate Villain C, and sympathize with Villain D. I hope they are undecided or conflicted regarding the intentions and morality of Villain E. Making any of these things happen will make up for, to me at least, all the old Rp I never got to finish. I want to believe I have the skill to do all that, but I won't know until I try it.

Ignacius · **09-15-2015, 05:45 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:26 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 10:49 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 10:13 AM)Caspar Wrote: That's why they make good NPCs. Granted, a straight up evil villain with a background that explains why they are who they are is no worse than any "criminal" in terms of characterization; that's a matter of taste. If anything I think it makes the monstrous type more interesting. You can look at their backstory, see what happened to them, and realize you still cannot forgive their actions in the present.

Characters aren't people. They *resemble people* and the degree to which other players and readers of your rp sympathize with them can be increased by making them resemble people more. Likewise, the amount they hate them can be as well. Narrative focus may necessitate more or less background attention as their role in a planned plotline may require. If you've going to make your main rp character a villain, having that extra depth will probably reward you just due to diversity of play and the entertainment that comes from doing so. If it is an alt or NPC, you can somewhat get away with not explaining every element of their background, though of course, if you desire to do so go for it. In my case, I've got the background of my plotline NPCs determined from their youth to the present, and there are some who are still completely unsympathetic out and out villains. However, I think that's just me being obsessive, lol.

A lot of that background will only see the light of day in my supplementary fiction that I write occasionally alongside the rp. I figure it's not always the case that the heroes are privy to every detail of the enemy's life. They can find this information if they pry with certain NPCs, but obviously some things the characters will never know. This may enhance the enemy's tragic qualities on the players OOCly, which is something I'd like to test out.

That's why, when anyone ever says that they want to play a villain, my first advice is to watch the entirety of The Wire, if they haven't already. Â David Simon created a show almost completely filled with moral ambiguity done right, and created villains that people relate to so well that they often don't realize they're talking about a villainous character.

Now that's how it's done right. Â So much more mileage out of that than your common everyday Skeletor.
Execution definitely matters a lot. It would make me very happy, for instance, if I can make RPers both revile and pity villain A, debate on the morality of Villain B, hate Villain C, and sympathize with Villain D. I hope they are undecided or conflicted regarding the intentions and morality of Villain E. Making any of these things happen will make up for, to me at least, all the old Rp I never got to finish. I want to believe I have the skill to do all that, but I won't know until I try it.

My personal favorite is when the paragon and the heroic figure has to come to you for help, and soil their dainty hands by being part of your dark, dangerous, disgusting world.

Some of my favorite RPs of all time!

SaintEaon · **09-15-2015, 05:52 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:25 PM)Verad Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 04:22 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: I'm kind of a dick when it comes to hunting people down. I don't necessarily kill leads, but my character isn't above pain and intimidation to get what he wants. If I catch the person I can only do what I've been told to do ICly. Its nothing personal, they can take it up with the bounty dude OOCly and he can get back to me.Â

I assume its the same for others, if not I'll find out soon. I hired like 6 assassins to kill someone in the roses FC this weekend. Dude's a whore, not sure how he's going to handle someone actively trying to ruin his life and slander his reputation. (Forgot to note I also hired people to lie about his character and make him look awful ICly.)

I realize you're pointing this out as a matter of pride, and that's why you don't sound like a fun person to play with.

You realize you pointing that out makes it very easy to say what you read here has nothing to do with IC right? Doesn't matter what I sound like here, I've got plenty of RP partners in game who disagree and RP with me every night. Not gonna lose sleep over the occassional person who has an issue with things I do because someone always will.

Askier · **09-15-2015, 05:56 PM**

(09-15-2015, 04:25 PM)Verad Wrote:
(09-15-2015, 04:22 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: I'm kind of a dick when it comes to hunting people down. I don't necessarily kill leads, but my character isn't above pain and intimidation to get what he wants. If I catch the person I can only do what I've been told to do ICly. Its nothing personal, they can take it up with the bounty dude OOCly and he can get back to me.Â

I assume its the same for others, if not I'll find out soon. I hired like 6 assassins to kill someone in the roses FC this weekend. Dude's a whore, not sure how he's going to handle someone actively trying to ruin his life and slander his reputation. (Forgot to note I also hired people to lie about his character and make him look awful ICly.)

I realize you're pointing this out as a matter of pride, and that's why you don't sound like a fun person to play with.

Ummm...

I can understand going after someone IC'ly.Â I Did it to several people's characters. But never did I do it without their OOC permission and...I never sounded to...well Verad's right, your tone sounds a bit overly-aggressive, what with calling him a whore and all, and your post is, indeed somewhat off putting.

The purpose of a villain character is to make a dynamic story for others...not ruin their character utterly unless you got permission.

As someone whose main character WAS, basically, destroyed mentally by someone IC'ly and had to be rebuilt over a looong period of time...please make sure you have their permission.

Warren Castille · **09-15-2015, 05:56 PM**

(09-15-2015, 05:52 PM)SaintEaon Wrote: You realize you pointing that out makes it very easy to say what you read here has nothing to do with IC right? Doesn't matter what I sound like here, I've got plenty of RP partners in game who disagree and RP with me every night. Not gonna lose sleep over the occassional person who has an issue with things I do because someone always will.

Perhaps, but this isn't the first time you've casually dropped what a callous no-fucks-given persona you claim to be on this website. It's not going to 1) impress anybody or 2) make anyone want to approach you. It becomes very difficult to integrate into a community if you're bandying about how you don't give a shit about anyone else's roleplay ("They can take it up OOCly with the guy who hired me, I don't care it's not personal").

That Guy · **09-15-2015, 06:00 PM**

Alright, back on topic people! I'm really enjoying the discussion but lets keep it that way okay? Just a discussion on rping a 'villain' character. That's it. No more no less.

Here's something to get folks back on tract: NPC's. I notice a lot of people who play criminal characters have a LOT of NPC's. On one had it makes sense, can't run a criminal empire without minions. On the other hand though when is it /too/ much? I knew one person who had a whole criminal enterprise that theyloved to lord around. However not one member of this group was an actual PC. So where do you draw the line?

Warren Castille · **09-15-2015, 06:03 PM**

I don't think you should, in that case. It's always useful to have a guy for the job, and if they're an NPC it's not even an issue of them being disposable. NPCs are excellent for niche roles like the surveillance guy or the contact with the fences or whatever thing you need that doesn't actually offer a terrible lot of room to do other stuff with.

It's great to know well-connected PCs, but it can be difficult to shop for someone who doesn't mind being a rarely-used-sometimes-summoned guy who lasts a scene and then returns to other stuff.

Askier · **09-15-2015, 06:08 PM**

(09-15-2015, 06:00 PM)That Guy Wrote: Alright, back on topic people! I'm really enjoying the discussion but lets keep it that way okay? Just a discussion on rping a 'villain' character. That's it. No more no less.

Here's something to get folks back on tract: NPC's. I notice a lot of people who play criminal characters have a LOT of NPC's. On one had it makes sense, can't run a criminal empire without minions. On the other hand though when is it /too/ much? I knew one person who had a whole criminal enterprise that theyloved to lord around. However not one member of this group was an actual PC. So where do you draw the line?

When it stops being fun!

Trying to define how to rp an organization of villains is kinda like trying to organize a race of blind horses.Â Won't work, so let 'em run free!

For villains its often necessary to make -henchmen- who are killable at a moments notice for the sake of rp for the heroes to make progress. Often in my FC's plot, and even back when I ran massive, server wide events, I often used npc's to help move the story along and give the heroes a sense of victory.

I mean, once I had over fifteen people show up just to rp NPC zombies to get hacked apart by the "heroes" and it worked out great.

Honestly, its what the story needs that determines the need for npcs in my mind.

Katzenjammer · **09-15-2015, 06:26 PM**

Good posts, and I agree with most of what I've read. Â As with any other kind of conflict RP, the primary thing that players of villains and heros alike need to remember is that no other player or PC is there for your convenience. Â That is what single player games are for. Â All is a trade off, provided the rule of 'don't be a dick' is followed by both sides. Â Sometimes the villain should win. Â Sometimes the hero should win. Â And sometimes the not so heroic types should go through the pockets of both while they lie there mutually beaten and bloodied to rid them of their loose change. Â And maybe kick a little dirt over them before they leave, just in case they happen to die.

If you treat your fellow players with some common decency and regard their fun as important as your own, you'll have repeat RP as a villain, or a hero. Â If you don't, you have one encounter that leaves both sides annoyed. Â Depending on the story and RP, make sure that neither good nor evil wins every time.

I say this having volunteered, in my first RP on Balmung, to be a victim of bandits. Â All of us had great fun, and Kharijin is still on the look out for those two, with poisoned arrows.

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Playing the badguy

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes