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-no longer matters- · **11-03-2015, 12:40 PM**

(11-03-2015, 12:36 PM)Vyce Wrote: I've always considered myself a GOOD Scholar. Never not been able to carry even the narbiest BLK. It's probably the ability to use Adloquium as a trampoline...

But the other day I was running The Vault and something I can't explain was happening:

I couldn't keep up.

The tank was a WAR, and had great gear. My gear is optimized for mind with some spell speed, and usually I can get a tank to full health in a flash.

But...though she was taking regular sized pulls, my heals were not enough to maintain her. I wasn't sure if she was taking an abnormal amount of damage or if my heals were weak, but I realized early on that, huh...something isn't right here. I was having to keep physic on spam and never had her at 100%.

We made it all the way to the last fight, where the problems really started. With the inability to break from healing, I kept getting delayed on telegraphs. Even going back and forth from Adlo to Phys wasn't helping, and each time we wiped, the tank and deeps were telling me "You are doing (insert thing) wrong" so I'd try to change it, and still end up with a wipe. Both of us had great gear and nothing had changed on my end since the last time I ran it. After the 4th wipe, they kick-voted me.

Has anyone ever experienced something like that in a Primal or a dungeon? I can't for the life of me figure out what I was doing wrong.

Sounds like your tank wasn't using cds on his tank buster (the room wide AoE) that thing hurts if you don't time the use of them. That's the only reason to wipe on that fight outside of dps not being able to dps the adds in time.

So likely it was your tank, especially if she was taking huge damage the whole run.

Good Gear can't make up for not managing CDs (also was she in defiance or Deliverance?) while it can be done, I do not recommend fighting that boss in deliverance other than the add phase.

Warren Castille · **11-03-2015, 12:43 PM**

The only thing that comes to mind is that your weapon was either broken or you had the wrong one equipped. Consistent drop across all encounters and trash is weird.

Also, you might have been drunk.

-no longer matters- · **11-03-2015, 12:44 PM**

(11-03-2015, 12:43 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: The only thing that comes to mind is that your weapon was either broken or you had the wrong one equipped. Consistent drop across all encounters and trash is weird.

Also, you might have been drunk.

Still sounds like the tank not managing CDs to me, but that Â ^ could also be a thing!

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **11-03-2015, 12:46 PM**

(11-03-2015, 12:36 PM)Vyce Wrote: I've always considered myself a GOOD Scholar. Never not been able to carry even the narbiest BLK. It's probably the ability to use Adloquium as a trampoline...

But the other day I was running The Vault and something I can't explain was happening:

I couldn't keep up.

The tank was a WAR, and had great gear. My gear is optimized for mind with some spell speed, and usually I can get a tank to full health in a flash.

But...though she was taking regular sized pulls, my heals were not enough to maintain her. I wasn't sure if she was taking an abnormal amount of damage or if my heals were weak, but I realized early on that, huh...something isn't right here. I was having to keep physic on spam and never had her at 100%.

We made it all the way to the last fight, where the problems really started. With the inability to break from healing, I kept getting delayed on telegraphs. Even going back and forth from Adlo to Phys wasn't helping, and each time we wiped, the tank and deeps were telling me "You are doing (insert thing) wrong" so I'd try to change it, and still end up with a wipe. Both of us had great gear and nothing had changed on my end since the last time I ran it. After the 4th wipe, they kick-voted me.

Has anyone ever experienced something like that in a Primal or a dungeon? I can't for the life of me figure out what I was doing wrong.

[edit] It was more like the effectiveness of my heals was reduced, and the effectiveness of her defense of reduced, so it was constantly me spamming heals until I could get some Aetherflows going to jumpstart her health, which still seemed less effective.

Aside from possibly broken gear (since you can't check other people's), is it possible you might've accidentally had Cleric Stance turned on? The WAR tank may also have had Deliverance (DPS stance) on instead of Defiance (Tanking stance) turned on. One or both of those would have created MAJOR healing issues.

Vyce · **11-03-2015, 12:48 PM**

By the end of the fight, I had checked everyone's gear. We were all good. She wasn't in any stance in the first half of the dungeon, and finally went into Defiance close to the second boss. I know nothing of Tank mechanics other than rotating hate, so I can't say for certain what was wrong. It must have been CDs.

But after dying the 4th time, I couldn't figure it out and just said, "I don't know how, but it has to be me." they unanimously agreed. Bye bye.

Actually, I had CS on for the first pull, but turned it off after that.

Edda · **11-03-2015, 12:53 PM**

Gear means little in The Vault if your tank is not properly using their CDs. I have seen it often enough, and with the large amount of damage dealt in The Vault, it is usually the fault of the tank for not taking trash pulls, let alone bosses, seriously. Many times I have queued in progress Vaults as a healer to hear "oh the healer sucked" only to find... Well, whether they did or did not is irrelevant, but the tank is never so stellar themselves in such scenarios.

If the tanks ARE using their CDs properly and you still have issues, you will need to adjust your play style to better deal with the huge difficulty spike The Vault has.

Warren Castille · **11-03-2015, 12:59 PM**

(11-03-2015, 12:53 PM)Edda Wrote: Gear means little in The Vault if your tank is not properly using their CDs. I have seen it often enough, and with the large amount of damage dealt in The Vault, it is usually the fault of the tank for not taking trash pulls, let alone bosses, seriously. Many times I have queued in progress Vaults as a healer to hear "oh the healer sucked" only to find... Well, whether they did or did not is irrelevant, but the tank is never so stellar themselves in such scenarios.

If the tanks ARE using their CDs properly and you still have issues, you will need to adjust your play style to better deal with the huge difficulty spike The Vault has.

I don't doubt healers saying this, but the math doesn't line up. Paladin and Dark Knight have (can't speak to WAR) got tanky cooldowns on long timers, and if you're doing one pack at a time you're either spreading them out (so you're only buffed for 15~ seconds per pack) or you're dumping them all at once and being unprotected on the following pull. If your DPS is shredding things so quickly that you kill everything in those 15 seconds, you've definitely not got them up again for the next pull. If your DPS takes forever to kill anything, then those 15 seconds amount to even less mitigation. Maybe it's a WAR thing? I'm not sure how Defiance works compared to Grit or Shield Oath.

Still very strange, though.

Syf · **11-03-2015, 01:01 PM**

Garuda was the first real skill check in the game when I was leveling, managed to get a full group of 44ish new players and it was essentially an hour of leading people by the nose and getting lead. Had to teach people about the usefulness of focus bars, when to AOE, and had to pop limit break to survive the buster, and it was a close fight. It was fun to run it blind and learn with a group that was willing to talk and improve. Nothing else in the game is skill check until that point, so it's understandable that a lot of players wouldn't know how to handle the mechanics.

Kage · **11-03-2015, 01:05 PM**

(11-03-2015, 12:44 PM)Gwen - Dinah Wrote:
(11-03-2015, 12:43 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: The only thing that comes to mind is that your weapon was either broken or you had the wrong one equipped. Consistent drop across all encounters and trash is weird.

Also, you might have been drunk.
Still sounds like the tank not managing CDs to me, but that Â ^ could also be a thing!

Reduced healing effectiveness would not be a CD management issue though. The Vault can still hurt a bunch in trash (especially before the first boss). It's a bit of a damage spike. It sounds more like peoples' gear is broke, gear is getting too outleveled or main hands are a little behind.

Were these symbols going up?
[Image: VXwtRPs.png]

If you didn't see the Inner Beast going up or Steel Cyclone every so often fuckyouWar.

Defiance is like 25% HP increase as well improving HP recovery via curing magic by 20% and reduces outgoing damage by like 25%.

Warrior and Scholars -should- go well together. The shield on large HP is great. However if you're already behind lustrates+physick go well. Would also need to ask how Selene was being used. Was she on obey or Sic? Were you typically far away? It sounds stupid to ask but I did a Bray Normal with a Scholar who had their fairy far away from me (on heel) that Embrace was never hitting me :/

Edit: The Warrior's defensive cooldowns are for shorter durations but they're a bit manageable because they also have a shorter recast.

Zezeki · **11-03-2015, 01:13 PM**

(11-03-2015, 01:05 PM)Kage Wrote: Defiance is like 25% HP increase as well improving HP recovery via curing magic by 20% and reduces damage by like 25%.

Defiance doesn't offer any reduced damage like Grit or Shield Oath does. Which is why most people stay in Deliverance anyway for the damage except in some fights when you have to switch.

Edda · **11-03-2015, 01:14 PM**

(11-03-2015, 12:59 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(11-03-2015, 12:53 PM)Edda Wrote: Gear means little in The Vault if your tank is not properly using their CDs. I have seen it often enough, and with the large amount of damage dealt in The Vault, it is usually the fault of the tank for not taking trash pulls, let alone bosses, seriously. Many times I have queued in progress Vaults as a healer to hear "oh the healer sucked" only to find... Well, whether they did or did not is irrelevant, but the tank is never so stellar themselves in such scenarios.

If the tanks ARE using their CDs properly and you still have issues, you will need to adjust your play style to better deal with the huge difficulty spike The Vault has.

I don't doubt healers saying this, but the math doesn't line up. Paladin and Dark Knight have (can't speak to WAR) got tanky cooldowns on long timers, and if you're doing one pack at a time you're either spreading them out (so you're only buffed for 15~ seconds per pack) or you're dumping them all at once and being unprotected on the following pull. If your DPS is shredding things so quickly that you kill everything in those 15 seconds, you've definitely not got them up again for the next pull. If your DPS takes forever to kill anything, then those 15 seconds amount to even less mitigation. Maybe it's a WAR thing? I'm not sure how Defiance works compared to Grit or Shield Oath.

Still very strange, though.

I've not leveled a tank class past 50 yet, so I'm no expert, but from my own experiences in The Vault, the best tanks stagger their CDs. That does not mean one is always up at every moment, but they are present enough to make a difference, believe me. A good tank that uses their CDS properly is far more than just a tank that takes less damage, as well, at least for me.
Â When I do not have to baby a tank, I get to DPS instead, which allows trash pulls to drop much faster, thus lessening the importance of the duration of tank CDs.

Not all healers do this, however, and I'm not willing to give up my damage in order to see what that's like, so... No comment there. The Vault is the only HW dungeon where I've had to give up most of my damage to baby crappy tanks, though, since the damage can be pretty unreal. I just wanted my exp.

Kage · **11-03-2015, 01:17 PM**

(11-03-2015, 01:13 PM)Zekikikikiki Wrote:
(11-03-2015, 01:05 PM)Kage Wrote: Defiance is like 25% HP increase as well improving HP recovery via curing magic by 20% and reduces damage by like 25%.

Defiance doesn't offer any reduced damage like Grit or Shield Oath does. Which is why most people stay in Deliverance anyway for the damage except in some fights when you have to switch.

It reduces outgoing damage. However most warriors do a piss poor job of using their defensive cooldowns which means they do a piss poor job at tanking with Deliverance. Along with hate issues. Just because Defiance does not reduce damage taken by the warrior does not mean you should be staying in Deliverance.

Warren Castille · **11-03-2015, 01:22 PM**

(11-03-2015, 01:14 PM)Edda Wrote: I've not leveled a tank class past 50 yet, so I'm no expert, but from my own experiences in The Vault, the best tanks stagger their CDs. That does not mean one is always up at every moment, but they are present enough to make a difference, believe me. A good tank that uses their CDS properly is far more than just a tank that takes less damage, as well, at least for me.
Â When I do not have to baby a tank, I get to DPS instead, which allows trash pulls to drop much faster, thus lessening the importance of the duration of tank CDs.

Not all healers do this, however, and I'm not willing to give up my damage in order to see what that's like, so... No comment there. The Vault is the only HW dungeon where I've had to give up most of my damage to baby crappy tanks, though, since the damage can be pretty unreal. I just wanted my exp.

Perhaps I'm undervaluing how far they go, then; How you describe them is how I've always hit cooldowns through dungeons. I haven't had a problem in any of the new dungeons that weren't related to mechanics specifically, so I'll just check my tank privilege at the door and back out of the conversation.

Cactuar

Zezeki · **11-03-2015, 01:23 PM**

(11-03-2015, 01:17 PM)Kage Wrote:
(11-03-2015, 01:13 PM)Zekikikikiki Wrote:
(11-03-2015, 01:05 PM)Kage Wrote: Defiance is like 25% HP increase as well improving HP recovery via curing magic by 20% and reduces damage by like 25%.

Defiance doesn't offer any reduced damage like Grit or Shield Oath does. Which is why most people stay in Deliverance anyway for the damage except in some fights when you have to switch.
It reduces outgoing damage. However most warriors do a piss poor job of using their defensive cooldowns which means they do a piss poor job at tanking with Deliverance. Along with hate issues. Just because Defiance does not reduce damage taken by the warrior does not mean you should be staying in Deliverance.

I misread. At any rate, I didn't have much if any problems holding aggro as a WAR while leveling. I'd say I'm a halfway decent tank. I only stay in Defiance long enough to build 5 stacks of Wrath then I switch to Deliverance for the rest of the fight. WARs have the easiest time holding aggro in my opinion at least.

Madda · **11-03-2015, 01:24 PM**

Wish Madda could get the Artifact gear, but it's 50 > o>

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