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McBeefâ„¢ · **11-27-2015, 06:11 PM**

(11-27-2015, 05:58 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(11-27-2015, 04:56 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(11-27-2015, 04:42 PM)Â Ozma Wrote: I feel like everyone is getting derailed here.Â

But let me ask the veteran community who migrated over to FFXIV as I have.Â

What did you hope for in Warlords of Draenor? And if Blizzard did not live up to your expectations in WoD but they have redeemed themselves in Legion, would you consider playing it again?

I just want an older school MMO experience again, where you have to group to do things. Where getting through the monsters and into a new town is an achievement. I'm playing Vanilla WoW to relive some of that, but I don't think they're ever going to head back to that format.Â

I'm getting a little tired of the theme park model :C

Having to group to get stuff done has nothing to do with a game being themepark or not.

What you want is a game that has no solo accessibility, which was FFXI at the 75 cap pre-abyssea and pretty much every game that came out before WoW.

Nah that's not true.Â

I think you can have a mix. A solo player can get through eventually if they're careful and go slowly. In order to progress quickly you have to make friends and do things together.Â

Vanilla WoW is really scratching the itch for me, LOTRO did the same at launch.

Oli! · **11-27-2015, 06:18 PM**

I've actually never just had to "stand there and heal" in WoW, personally. Which is part of the reason why I liked it.

That was probably because I was playing Resto Druid (which only has one Nuke Heal on a CD of 1 minute, everything else was a HoT except for one other spell that was shit anyway), but that was in fact the reason why I liked the class. Much more micro-management (i.e., keep those HoTs up on everyone and don't fuck up).

I think the deal with WoW compared to XIV is that XIV roughlyÂ places everything on the same level of difficulty, whereas with WoW there are some classes that are, either purposefully or not, harder than others, which means that people will hate you if you use them poorly.

There are other games that are also doing that (TERA has class difficulty spelled out on their webpage, for example), so it's not something that's confined totally to WoW. But if we're going to give one game the crown of Super Hard Raiding, that game is going to be Wildstar, because there really isn't any competition. Sadly, the rest of the game was too boring for me to get to that point, but the world bosses were Bullshit enough. Take a look at any video of a Wildstar raid, and you'll immediately be able to tell just how good your reflexes have to be for something like that. The game practically billed itself on it.

Sadly the numbers tanked, and most of the people that are interested in that content are gone, from what I last heard, so getting to experience that sort of content is probably a rare chance at this point.

To be fair though, neither WoW nor XIV has "joke dungeons" or "joke raids," really. If any MMO has joke dungeons, that would be GW2, where if you have the right party composition you can negate basically half your incoming damage by standing on top of each other.

Parth Makeo · **11-27-2015, 06:37 PM**

(11-27-2015, 06:18 PM)Oli! Wrote: But if we're going to give one game the crown of Super Hard Raiding, that game is going to be Wildstar, because there really isn't any competition. Sadly, the rest of the game was too boring for me to get to that point, but the world bosses were Bullshit enough. Take a look at any video of a Wildstar raid, and you'll immediately be able to tell just how good your reflexes have to be for something like that. The game practically billed itself on it.

Sadly the numbers tanked, and most of the people that are interested in that content are gone, from what I last heard, so getting to experience that sort of content is probably a rare chance at this point.

That and...well there is a reason Blizzard trashed 40 man raids. My turn off from Wildstar before it went Free to Play was some people noting about how raids were 20 man and 40 man structured and what not. If endgame was going to be vanilla wow again i'd rather do a private server for that.Â
Granted i saw some fights and they do look fairly hard from look alone o.o

allgivenover · **11-27-2015, 06:57 PM**

(11-27-2015, 06:11 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(11-27-2015, 05:58 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(11-27-2015, 04:56 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:
(11-27-2015, 04:42 PM)Â Ozma Wrote: I feel like everyone is getting derailed here.Â

But let me ask the veteran community who migrated over to FFXIV as I have.Â

What did you hope for in Warlords of Draenor? And if Blizzard did not live up to your expectations in WoD but they have redeemed themselves in Legion, would you consider playing it again?

I just want an older school MMO experience again, where you have to group to do things. Where getting through the monsters and into a new town is an achievement. I'm playing Vanilla WoW to relive some of that, but I don't think they're ever going to head back to that format.Â

I'm getting a little tired of the theme park model :C

Having to group to get stuff done has nothing to do with a game being themepark or not.

What you want is a game that has no solo accessibility, which was FFXI at the 75 cap pre-abyssea and pretty much every game that came out before WoW.
Nah that's not true.Â

I think you can have a mix. A solo player can get through eventually if they're careful and go slowly. In order to progress quickly you have to make friends and do things together.Â

Vanilla WoW is really scratching the itch for me, LOTRO did the same at launch.

I'm not sure what statement you're calling 'not true', the one where it has nothing to do with themeparks or the one where solo accessibility is nonexistent?

Because both Vanilla WoW and pre-Abyssea XI had little in the way of solo friendliness past a certain point, and both were themeparks through and through.

Momoka · **11-27-2015, 08:13 PM**

I know Im late to the party but like...man I only played wow for the pvp by the end of it, and as a boomkin I just shat on people left and fucking right. it was dumb. no skill needed, no gear needed, just smash starsurge/fall and g fucking g. I hit 2k on my hpriest and my boomkin, and then I was like...well now what. when I do feel frisky and log in I galivant around with my fancy pvp/pve titles and realize how little I care these days and then go play this shit game or league. man fuck video games, they suck up so much of my free time.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-27-2015, 08:27 PM**

(11-27-2015, 06:57 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(11-27-2015, 06:11 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: Nah that's not true.Â

I think you can have a mix. A solo player can get through eventually if they're careful and go slowly. In order to progress quickly you have to make friends and do things together.Â

Vanilla WoW is really scratching the itch for me, LOTRO did the same at launch.

I'm not sure what statement you're calling 'not true', the one where it has nothing to do with themeparks or the one where solo accessibility is nonexistent?

Because both Vanilla WoW and pre-Abyssea XI had little in the way of solo friendliness past a certain point, and both were themeparks through and through.

I'm not sure what definition you're using for 'themepark'.Â

I view it as the game has certain 'attractions' and the gameworld only exists as a place for giving people access to those attractions.Â

I don't really think Vanilla WoW is set up that way, despite what people say. You definitely are not railroaded or hand held, and after a certain point the player is left to their own devices besides vague quests that say things like 'talk to that guy'Â

Are you arguing that MMOs haven't become more linear and streamlined over time? I'm not saying MMOs need to be archaic and obtuse, just that I wish they weren't so souless. I honestly can't bring myself to log on and run another stupid fucking straight line Eso Dungeon. No wonder people are always mad in duty finder, they don't want to be in there, and they're not having fun, so they get mad at you if you make it take any longer than it has to.

LiadansWhisper · **11-27-2015, 08:32 PM**

(11-27-2015, 11:39 AM)allgivenover Wrote:
(11-27-2015, 04:15 AM)Isse Takayama Wrote: The one thing. ONE THING I like about WoW over this game is the lack of a global cooldown. As a healer, that goddamn global cooldown just makes me want to strangle a dolphin sometimes. I log onto WoW and heal something and go holy shit what is going on I press a button and the thing happens? I still haven't gotten over it. I press my buttons while playing FF like if I press them faster the GCD will fuck off. It never does. My wrists hurt.

Having to think a few moments ahead rather than spam buttons to keep people alive can be a little inconvenient I guess.

That's not really how it works, as a healer. Sure, you think ahead, but remember that you're playing the game against both the encounter and your fellow raiders. Being unable to react to things kind of sucks.

However, I disagree with Izzy about the GCD. WoW has a GCD, and I routinely clip GCD all the time as a healer in that game. It's just, the GCD is a lot faster.

Oli! · **11-27-2015, 08:36 PM**

(11-27-2015, 06:57 PM)allgivenover Wrote: I'm not sure what statement you're calling 'not true', the one where it has nothing to do with themeparks or the one where solo accessibility is nonexistent?

Because both Vanilla WoW and pre-Abyssea XI had little in the way of solo friendliness past a certain point, and both were themeparks through and through.

Vanilla WoW was hardly a theme-park during its first few patches in, and one could even argue that it wasn't until BC anyway.

Vanilla WoW didn't even have battlegrounds at first; the reason why those were implemented in the first place was because people were interrupting quest chains by killing people and sacking towns in order to fill their PvP fix. It also had no overarching storyline until BC, quests were self-contained storylines that sometimesÂ branched into others throughout zones, otherwise you just did whatever the hell you wanted.

And that was without the initial exploration factor before they added flying mounts; there were so many things that were tucked super stealthily into zones that you really had to put in effort and go off the roads to find (the secret Rogue mansion in Hillsbrad somewhere was my favorite), and there were tons of Off The Rails fun to be had (such as running through the swamps as a teen-level toon in order to get to all the good shit in Stormwind).

And that's without getting into the fact that this was a time before QuestHelper, or even before MMOs decided to give you the courtesy of telling you were your quest objectives were.

Vanilla WoW was many things, but Theme Park, I would say, was not one of them.

LiadansWhisper · **11-27-2015, 08:57 PM**

(11-27-2015, 01:41 PM)allgivenover Wrote: I raid healed in WOW Wrath and XIV through Final Coil. In WOW I just had to stand in the right spots and make sure I had strong enough heals to make it, in XIV I had to plan ahead.

This explains a few things.

Wrath healing was a joke, in the vast majority of cases unless you were doing bleeding-edge content undergeared.

Healing isn't like that anymore. The raiding scene honestly isn't like that anymore. Encounters have only become more complicated over the years.

LiadansWhisper · **11-27-2015, 09:05 PM**

(11-27-2015, 04:42 PM)Ozma Wrote: I feel like everyone is getting derailed here.Â

But let me ask the veteran community who migrated over to FFXIV as I have.Â

What did you hope for in Warlords of Draenor? And if Blizzard did not live up to your expectations in WoD but they have redeemed themselves in Legion, would you consider playing it again?

What did I hope for?

Oh god, where to begin...

I really wanted them to address healing. It's been off the rails for two expansions now, and they keep trying to "fix" it mid-expansion (or just stick their heads in the sand and try to pretend that every raid isn't saving 2 of 3 spots for a Disc Priest and a Paladin, and letting the other four specs fight it out for the third raid spot). If they don't get a handle on Disc, that will be it for me. I'm tired of being forced to play the most boring fucking spec in the game (seriously, there is absolutely no "skill" involved in blanketing the raid in Power Word: Shield and Clarity of Will...I mean, unless you call "setting my raid frames up to track Weakened Soul and Clarity of Will duration" skill).

I'm tired of mana not being something I care about. I want to be juggling mana the way I was back in Cata - not in 5 mans, necessarily, but we need this in raids where the mana restrictions have been increasingly looser with each expansion. Supposedly they were gonna address that, but lol, nope!

I'm sick of Legendaries that completely change the way the game is played. I should not have to worry that if I take a month or two month break, I won't be able to effectively join a guild for the rest of the expansion because I'm just too far behind. I was hoping that after they saw the bullshit that the cloak put guilds through, they would stop that, but nope!

I don't want to have to do LFR anymore. In fact, if LFR disappeared, I would be thrilled.

I was hoping they would address the completely obscene gear inflation we got in MoP, and at first I thought they were going to do that with the item squish. But...

LOL

No. They actually doubled down and made the gear inflation worse this time around. Which has directly contributed to healer mana and healing getting out of control.

I also was hoping for more to do than there turned out to be to do. Without flying, a lot of otherwise fun things became...just a study in frustration. I got sick of it.

Parth Makeo · **11-27-2015, 10:03 PM**

(11-27-2015, 09:05 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I don't want to have to do LFR anymore. In fact, if LFR disappeared, I would be thrilled.

I feel the same (despite now just touching LFR for valor) and to be fair they nerfed HFC Normal to the point of it being essentially an LFR version. They removed some abilities and stuff to make it so accessible that LFR is completely moot by now. Only reason is for Valor for upgrades (if you need it)

allgivenover · **11-27-2015, 10:33 PM**

A themepark MMO features linear paths winding around the content that is largely static. There might be different branching paths, like choosing one leveling zone over another, but despite that it's a themepark.

WoW is and always has been a themepark.
FFXIV is a themepark.

A sandbox features some amount of emergent content generated by players that can change the environment.

EVE is a sandbox.
Archage is a kind of a sandbox, some call it a sandpark.

How was vanilla WoW NOT a themepark MMO?

Oli! · **11-27-2015, 10:50 PM**

(11-27-2015, 10:33 PM)allgivenover Wrote: A themepark MMO features linear paths winding around the content that is largely static. There might be different branching paths, like choosing one leveling zone over another, but despite that it's a themepark.

By this definition, any MMO that offers Quests becomes a themepark MMO.

Meaning that any MMO ever made save for something like Second Life, including those you listed as sandboxes, is a Themepark.

So this definition is too broad to be of any use.

LiadansWhisper · **11-27-2015, 11:00 PM**

(11-27-2015, 10:50 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(11-27-2015, 10:33 PM)allgivenover Wrote: A themepark MMO features linear paths winding around the content that is largely static. There might be different branching paths, like choosing one leveling zone over another, but despite that it's a themepark.

By this definition, any MMO that offers Quests becomes a themepark MMO.

Meaning that any MMO ever made save for something like Second Life, including those you listed as sandboxes, is a Themepark.

So this definition is too broad to be of any use.

I believe that both Eve and Archeage allow you to actually make long-term changes to the game environment.

Oli! · **11-27-2015, 11:16 PM**

(11-27-2015, 11:00 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I believe that both Eve and Archeage allow you to actually make long-term changes to the game environment.

They also offer "linear paths winding around the content that is largely static."

Both EVE and ArcheAge offer the ability to enforce some sort of legislation upon the game-world, and for ArcheAge, this is rather superficial to begin with (i.e., you can only control pre-designated areas, and build in pre-designated areas, and trade with pre-designated people). Even with EVE, if you go ahead and google "Is EVE a Sandbox MMO," you'll get plenty of debates on that very subject, with some people preferring to call it an "Open-Ended MMO" instead, meaning that this isn't nearly as clear-cut as people seem to think.

The problem is that people have different definitions as to what constitutes as "railroading" in an MMO. You can certainly say that some MMOs have more freedom of choice than others, but exactly how much Choice you must have in order to switch classification from one to the other is not at all clear-cut. If you wanted to, right now, you could log into WoW and pick flowers all the way to the level cap. It might be a weird choice, but that's a choice that the game allows you to make.

If you look at all games through the choice of what they "Allow" you to do, then you'll get a very different viewpoint than if you look at it through another lens. I'm not arguing that WoW hasn't lost a lot of the former open-ended nature that it had during Vanilla (even EVE has thrown some of this away; it used to be notorious for its lack of hand-holding, which they changed in future patches), just that at its launch, it wasn't strictly a "Themepark." However, unless we have a proper definition of what exactly the dividing line is, then we won't be able to resolve this argument.

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