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Kellach Woods · **02-24-2016, 09:33 PM**

So do they ever explain why in the shit Raubahn fights exactly like Ifrit or was that just a complete waste of time?

Also AYLMAO THE BLUE really needs to spring for some duds if he wants me to fight for him.

***Nero*** · **02-24-2016, 09:38 PM**

Regarding Vidofnir: I get the feeling that Nidhogg didn't kill Vidofnir lest he risk Hraesvelgr intervening directly against him. Wounding Vidofnir is enough to send a message without blatantly provoking Hrasevelgr's brood....maybe. I'm not sure if I should give Square Enix's writers that much credit; I am entirely willing to believe that they're just lazy and don't want to commit to killing a character (stares at Nanamo).

Although Nidhogg still should have taken the time to torch some civvies to really reignite the war, pun intended. It would have actually made the result of the conference, well, worrying, and given the ending some weight, rather than Nidhogg just showing up, chortling, and bouncing away while the Ishgardians shake their fists and say "We'll get you next time, Nidhogg, you dastardly scoundrel!"

I still have no idea why Thancred is wearing an eyepatch other than "Japanese character design".

The Emmallenain bit was kind of nice though I question why it was there at all. Would have been nice for Haurchefant to have been given even a scrap of that kind of character development.

Grand melee was silly. Bread and circuses for unity.

Prediction: Aymeric is eventually turned into a scapegoat when the war reignites and he is cornered by angry protestors but manages to survive by hiding underneath a nearby dumpster.

S'imba · **02-24-2016, 09:38 PM**

Nidhogg trying to kill dog dragon's kids isn't new though. A lot of that churning mist's stuff is about how Hrasvelgrr and hid brood are traitors. Nidhogg seems to have this attitude of if you're not part of my cause you get to die. (Which isn't surprising considering how insane he his.)Â

Even though I do kind of feel that Hrasvelgr and Nidhogg Â are going to have a showdown, it's going to be just because SE forcing it to happen. Dog dragon just doesn't give a damn about anything. Doesn't help that he kind of agrees with Nidhogg.

Caspar · **02-24-2016, 09:55 PM**

(02-24-2016, 09:33 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: So do they ever explain why in the shit Raubahn fights exactly like Ifrit or was that just a complete waste of time?

Also AYLMAO THE BLUE really needs to spring for some duds if he wants me to fight for him.

Ul'dahman beat Ifrit offscreen and copied his ability, which will be useful against the other Primal Masters and Dr. Zodiark.

I really wanted to fight for my appropriate GC. I like the Ishgardians, but WoL in their camp felt like a diplomatic incident waiting to happen. The fight was gratifying at least. Where's Raubahn Nanamo EX?

Overall though, the patch seemed to set up the next mostly. Minnie dying... Sorta? Seemed final. I would have loved for more Scions to bite the dust but it was a bit of a relief to see one go permanently after so many fakeouts. Though Hydaelyn didn't really use her to tell us that much we didn't already know. Was it worth irrecoverably (maybe) shattering her form just to remind us to beat the Aschians?

Momo · **02-24-2016, 10:02 PM**

(02-24-2016, 09:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(02-24-2016, 04:47 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Let's just go whole-ham with the theories here. Undead (the conventional sort) are corpses possessed by voidsent (I think!) and are much just animated dead.

The mages in Lost City, though, aren't the shambly corpse people. They're more like unlife, really: Empty vessels driven to movement and thought instead of being filled with another thing possessing them. Motor functions return, but the spark of life is out.

I can't articulate this well.

I saw Amdapor got brought up a few times in thread, so let's go over some things.

Firstly, the undead Mhachi and Amdaporians. These are a type of ashkin known as Fomors, undead preserved by magic who still possess a soul, which is why they possess the personality, combative, and magical capabilities they had in life. Fomors fall loosely into the category of Revenants, undead who refuse to accept death, and so fiercely cling to life that their soul does not depart to the Lifestream. Unlike Revenants, however, Fomors are aware that they are dead.

Fomor Wrote:These raging revenants are bodies long dead animated by dark magicks. They retain the combat skills they had in life, as well as boasting unholy strength.

I cover this topic in a bit more detail at the bottom of this post.

Now, its a fair theory to believe one of the reasons the elementals believed the Amdaporians corrupted succor was because they created undead, however, we do not actually know if it was the Amdaporians who animated these Fomors or if it were the invading Mhachi or their Voidsent allies. Most Fomors we see in game today date back to the Belah'dian and War of the Sisters eras, wherein powerful thaumaturges and alchemists were both noted for reanimating the dead to use in their armies. Belah'dia especially. And Belah'dia was formed of mages who survived the Great Flood which wiped out Mhach and Amdapor. So... are the undead there because of Amdapor or because of Mhach? We don't know.

This moves into another point I saw earlier that animating inanimate objects was a corruption. This was not a corruption actually. Magicks which animated inanimate objects was actually quite a common practice during the 5th Astral Era. Amdapor, Mhach, and Nym all have inanimate constructs in their lore histories. In fact, Amdapor was built by magically animated bricks. Nym was guarded by soulkin, creatures whose soul resides in an external object, such as a golem and their soulstone, or a spriggan and their rock buddy. And Mhach animated entire mountain ranges into golems and such to fight for them. So, this part was likely not the corruption.

So, what was the corruption? The final boss. When Amdapor corrupted Succor into a tool for war. When white magic was no longer used to heal, but to hurt. This was the corruption. This is what angered the elementals and possibly why they feared to go into Amdapor while Kuribu still lived. This also fits in very nicely with already established lore of why the elementals drove out the Amdaporians:

Oha-Sok Wrote:Hast thou forgotten the pact of Gelmorra? The powers granted to the Padjal must not be used in conflict.
Miounne Wrote:The conjurers teach us that elementals of the Twelveswood are not instruments of war, and no attempt shall be made to use them as such against the Empire.
Raya-O-Senna Wrote:Emboldened by magic, man went on to reach the zenith of glory. But his hunger knew no bounds. Over time, even they who donned the white began perverting their powers for the sake of self-gain, and in this single-minded pursuit scrupled not to sully the sanctity of the Twelveswood. In his pride and avarice, man brought down the wrath of the elementals upon himself.

Also, thanks go to Osric for asking last night, there's mention of the "Hannish" people by F'lhaminn and her companions. Hannish refers to people from Radz-at-Han, the capital of Thavnair. Essentially, F'lhaminn and the other scions went into hiding in the Near East.

I think maybe the Amdapori corruption idea came in the form of the animated blocks/bricks, which were said to be animated by Voidmagics if I am not wrong? Â History seems to blame Mhachi for their admittedly vast usage of Voidmagic, but it seems that Amdapor was also a perpetrator of this as well, and I think it was that kind of morally ambiguous norm, that eventually led to the War of the Magi.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that animated stone theory!

I am excited/slash terrified to experience these mentioned scenes! T,T____

Kellach Woods · **02-24-2016, 10:10 PM**

(02-24-2016, 09:55 PM)Caspar Wrote: Ul'dahman beat Ifrit offscreen and copied his ability, which will be useful against the other Primal Masters and Dr. Zodiark.

I really wanted to fight for my appropriate GC. I like the Ishgardians, but WoL in their camp felt like a diplomatic incident waiting to happen. The fight was gratifying at least. Where's Raubahn Nanamo EX?

See if that was the case, I'd be happy with it because at least it's an explanation. Right now it's literally "We threw in a Phelegeton ability for the lols but you're doing a Ifrit HM solo."

If they come up with a melee SMN I'm going to love that class don't get me wrong.

Honestly, it makes Ishgard look even more like shit. Thancred points out the WoL single-handedly won that fight. It's straight up saying "Yeah Ishgard are chumps."

It's even worse because Ayylmao is just saying "Hm sure let's put the incompetent son of a lord in battle to regain his honor, instead of someone who's actually competent. I mean why would we field someone who knows what they're doing we're going to guilt-trip the WoL into doing our bidding ANYWAY - Never mind that this is supposed to put pride into Ishgard as a nation and we're relying on someone who isn't even from Ishgard and who we've treated like complete garbage ever since 3.0."

Warren Castille · **02-24-2016, 10:15 PM**

Spin it any way you'd like, it doesn't make sense to me that the guy declaring war on everyone trying to make peace would stop himself from murdering Big Lady V because he's afraid of repercussion. He drives the spear in after the impale, for crying out loud!

It's a shitty message to send and makes him look like a chump. "I'll kill you, just not right now, because I won't actually kill you right now, BUT I WILL NEXT TIME BE AFRAID RARGH."

Meta: Vid is a quest-giver, and SE won't/doesn't have the manpower to change all of the questing stuff should someone intentionally wait to do the sidestuff after the MSQ.

Alternatively, this is just classic shitty fantasy villain writing wherein he's braindead and poorly written.

Caspar · **02-24-2016, 10:22 PM**

I dunno, I think maiming someone and sending them back to their faction to spread terror and encourage them not to get involved is a pretty classic terror tactic, actually. It just has the tendency to backfire if you're not overwhelmingly more powerful than the potentially rebellious faction, more so if you kill the victim dead first rather than simply wounding them horribly. But, well, he is mad with rage. I do think he should have roasted the crowd. It would have been a more entertaining scene too.

Alternatively, his aim was crappy, because he can only see out of those weird Nightmare/William Birkin shoulder eyes and they're uneven and far apart...

Warren Castille · **02-24-2016, 10:24 PM**

That hinges on attacking and maiming Hraes' kid NOT being a significant factor in the war, though. Is Hraes just going to be cool with that? Killing her is a big no-no, but just nearly killing her is fine. Classic Nidhogg. *laughtrack*

Edit: The most powerful dragoon (barring WoL) empowered by double dragon powers somehow misses a killing strike. Again, it makes him look like a chump.

Double edit: Merciful or incompetent, take your pick. Both are negative traits in a Big Bad.

***Nero*** · **02-24-2016, 10:26 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:15 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Spin it any way you'd like, it doesn't make sense to me that the guy declaring war on everyone trying to make peace would stop himself from murdering Big Lady V because he's afraid of repercussion. He drives the spear in after the impale, for crying out loud!

It's a shitty message to send and makes him look like a chump. "I'll kill you, just not right now, because I won't actually kill you right now, BUT I WILL NEXT TIME BE AFRAID RARGH."

Meta: Vid is a quest-giver, and SE won't/doesn't have the manpower to change all of the questing stuff should someone intentionally wait to do the sidestuff after the MSQ.

Alternatively, this is just classic shitty fantasy villain writing wherein he's braindead and poorly written.

Are you suggesting that Square Enix has shoddy writing? En garde, sir! I challenge you to take such baseless accusations back!

Fearing Dravanian reprisal is the only justification I can think of as to why Nidhogg didn't kill Vidofnir, although there is NO excuse for Nidhogg not just torching half the crowd before leaving. The only other explanation is that Nidhogg isn't used to controlling a humanoid form and botched the assassination, which just makes him look more cartoonishly villainous than he already is.

Also, it might be a reference to something from 1.0, but Thancred feeling responsible for not stopping a goobbue from breaking free in Ul'dah and killing Minfillia's dad is...good lord. I don't even know how to describe how utterly idiotic I find it. It's about as serious as Minfillia's dad being a janitor working for Siegfried and Roy and getting mauled by the tiger. It's just outright silly. I think I was supposed to laugh but I'm not entirely sure, but I certainly hope it wasn't intended for me to take that seriously.

Caspar · **02-24-2016, 10:27 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:24 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: That hinges on attacking and maiming Hraes' kid NOT being a significant factor in the war, though. Is Hraes just going to be cool with that? Killing her is a big no-no, but just nearly killing her is fine. Classic Nidhogg. *laughtrack*

Given the strength and power of the dragons, a serious injury like that in the span of a lifetime of thousands of years might be the equivalent of a public flogging. Humiliating and painful, but not genuinely life threatening unless taken to its extreme. Hraes might look at it and weigh the options of just letting his child be wounded emotionally and physically against war among their own kind and opt to not to pick a fight. Since that would result in lots of permanent death and division within his race, that so far he's been willfully indifferent to. (Perhaps out of cowardice, from Niddhogr's perspective.)Â

Though, he's kinda let Niddhogr cause that with his personal war already. I guess the idea is that he's counting on the repugnance of "killing one's own family" to dissuade them? Perhaps even Niddhogr is not so far gone as to murder other dragons yet.

But it's probably just me reading into it too much.

I actually kinda don't know how important Thancred was in Ul'dah. I mean, was it his duty to kill rampaging gobbues in the city? Was he her father's bodyguard?

Warren Castille · **02-24-2016, 10:32 PM**

The goobue thing is a direct reference to the 1.0 Ul'dah opening, yes. It was... also kind of silly at the time.

And I mean, I understand what you're all saying about it potentially being a warning, but... It just doesn't mesh with me. Sending someone back to their mom on the brink of death is still pretty reprehensible. It's not even a "If you continue trying to make peace, I'll kill you next time" kind of thing since there are so many of Nidhogg's brood already killing other dragons in Churning Mists FATEs.

No sir, I don't like it. Surprise.

Kellach Woods · **02-24-2016, 10:33 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:26 PM)Nero Wrote: Also, it might be a reference to something from 1.0, but Thancred feeling responsible for not stopping a goobbue from breaking free in Ul'dah and killing Minfillia's dad is...good lord. I don't even know how to describe how utterly idiotic I find it. It's about as serious as Minfillia's dad being a janitor working for Siegfried and Roy and getting mauled by the tiger. It's just outright silly. I think I was supposed to laugh but I'm not entirely sure, but I certainly hope it wasn't intended for me to take that seriously.

People feel like shit for stupid stuff all the time. To me it's as good an excuse as any, though the method of presenting made it look completely silly.

I mean, unless he was directly the guy controlling the Gobbue. And he was drunk on the job. Also was teasing the Gobbue with a delicious whatever those things eat. And then pointed in the direction of the crowd saying "TEN GIL SAYS YOU CAN'T STAMPEDE THROUGH THE CROWD YA WEAKSAUCE GOBBUE."

I could understand the angst if that was the case.

***Nero*** · **02-24-2016, 10:33 PM**

Also, is no one going to mention how tired the "We don't know where to go/how to get somewhere without Matoya" plot device is? The characters might as well outright say "Matoya has a copy of the script, let's ask her to turn the page for us".

Also, again with abandoned Sharlayan shit. How far is this going to go before it just becomes a parody?

"Matoya, the Ascians have obtained the launch codes to the USS Nebraska's payload of Trident-II ICBMs! What do we do!?"

"Not to worry Y'shtola, the script says that an abandoned Sharlayan facility holds an experimental missile defense system! The Iron Dome 2.0 will save Eorzea! But don't ask me for help again, y'hear!?"

Caspar · **02-24-2016, 10:34 PM**

(02-24-2016, 10:32 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: The goobue thing is a direct reference to the 1.0 Ul'dah opening, yes. It was... also kind of silly at the time.

And I mean, I understand what you're all saying about it potentially being a warning, but... It just doesn't mesh with me. Sending someone back to their mom on the brink of death is still pretty reprehensible. It's not even a "If you continue trying to make peace, I'll kill you next time" kind of thing since there are so many of Nidhogg's brood already killing other dragons in Churning Mists FATEs.

No sir, I don't like it. Surprise.

Oh, right. Lol.

So narratively, they might be trying to suggest Niddhogr is not willing to kill his kin, but the FATEs contradict this. Unless the dragons in the FATEs are just nonfatally KOing each other all the time. If that was the case, Ishgard would have had a field day with all the unconscious dragons, lol.

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3.2 Story and Discovery Thread: HERE BE [SPOILERS]

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