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Val · **10-17-2016, 10:32 AM**

(10-17-2016, 10:21 AM)Teadrinker Wrote: Massive lore comes with MMO territory, especially those with a progressing storyline and multiple xpacs etc.

You can get away with not having as much in a standalone console RPG.

Nah. You don't need lore explaining what equates to obvious game mechanics and chat systems. Linkpearls, for example, are just custom chat channels, yet they felt the need to go very in-depth with explaining them through in game for some reason. It's not just MMOs they do it with. It's every single game they've released in.. forever.

Val · **10-17-2016, 10:34 AM**

(10-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Valence Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 11:19 PM)V Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 11:10 PM)Momo Wrote: I don't think it was an error, there are some errors in there of course, because of translation and sheer speed needed to finish, but none of them which glaringly change an entire fact.
The lore book says that Nunh are leaders in Seeker tribes as a standard in direct contradiction to the original lore post.

I don't remember anything like that? They don't say outright they are leaders... Unless there is a scan I missed...

They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

Valence · **10-17-2016, 10:36 AM**

(10-17-2016, 03:41 AM)Verad Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 02:09 AM)AlionLucada Wrote: Just don't be surprised if people call you out on it. ICly of course.

Will you?

I personally will because that's how my character would react to someone claiming to be a special snowflake.

But that's probably where I'll shift to OOC discussion because it's never really sane to treat a divergence of RP opinions ICly like that, with one side claiming things while the other says "yeah, yeah, cuckoo crazy". It's highly unhealthy.

Generally, when both sides disagree with how to treat that kind of issue, then better to part ways happily, with no hard feelings and a mutual respect.

Don't get me wrong, I have no stakes in that. I always try to be the most neutral and lore abiding possible. I also happen to have a good RP friend that is playing a dragoon, and the nightmare it will cause is also impacting me.

Valence · **10-17-2016, 10:46 AM**

(10-17-2016, 10:34 AM)Val Wrote: They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

I don't have the scan to check it again, but I seem to remember it was stated rather approximately along those lines, that they have to lead their tribe on the way to greatness or something.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are tribe chiefs, but merely leaders. Which also tends to comfort me in saying that they have a very central social status to the tribe, and not just on breeding.

But maybe I'm wrong.

Val · **10-17-2016, 10:59 AM**

(10-17-2016, 10:46 AM)Valence Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 10:34 AM)Val Wrote: They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

I don't have the scan to check it again, but I seem to remember it was stated rather approximately along those lines, that they have to lead their tribe on the way to greatness or something.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are tribe chiefs, but merely leaders. Which also tends to comfort me in saying that they have a very central social status to the tribe, and not just on breeding.

But maybe I'm wrong.

One screen definitely said leading them to greatness, and another mentioned them being leaders of the tribe. It was weird. I tried to find it on my phone for exact wording but I couldn't, and my work blocks tumblr via firewall (not that I'd remotely care to get on it at work >_> definitely not a safe place).

If someone else doesn't post it by the time I get home, I'll see if I can find it!

ExAtomos · **10-17-2016, 11:13 AM**

(10-17-2016, 10:59 AM)Val Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 10:46 AM)Valence Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 10:34 AM)Val Wrote: They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

I don't have the scan to check it again, but I seem to remember it was stated rather approximately along those lines, that they have to lead their tribe on the way to greatness or something.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are tribe chiefs, but merely leaders. Which also tends to comfort me in saying that they have a very central social status to the tribe, and not just on breeding.

But maybe I'm wrong.

One screen definitely said leading them to greatness, and another mentioned them being leaders of the tribe. It was weird. I tried to find it on my phone for exact wording but I couldn't, and my work blocks tumblr via firewall (not that I'd remotely care to get on it at work >_> definitely not a safe place).

If someone else doesn't post it by the time I get home, I'll see if I can find it!

Here is the Seeker page if this is what you were looking for.
[Image: tumblr_of4mg3CMcB1qakgddo1_1280.jpg]

On topic... I am also VERY surprised that they didn't couch things in vague terms like "a small number of..." or "few" and yes, I do feel for those who try very hard to abide by lore and play a Dragoon. This is rather pulling the rug out from under them.

Val · **10-17-2016, 11:16 AM**

(10-17-2016, 11:13 AM)ExAtomos Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 10:59 AM)Val Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 10:46 AM)Valence Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 10:34 AM)Val Wrote: They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

I don't have the scan to check it again, but I seem to remember it was stated rather approximately along those lines, that they have to lead their tribe on the way to greatness or something.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are tribe chiefs, but merely leaders. Which also tends to comfort me in saying that they have a very central social status to the tribe, and not just on breeding.

But maybe I'm wrong.

One screen definitely said leading them to greatness, and another mentioned them being leaders of the tribe. It was weird. I tried to find it on my phone for exact wording but I couldn't, and my work blocks tumblr via firewall (not that I'd remotely care to get on it at work >_> definitely not a safe place).

If someone else doesn't post it by the time I get home, I'll see if I can find it!

Here is the Seeker page if this is what you were looking for.

On topic... I am also VERY surprised that they didn't couch things in vague terms like "a small number of..." or "few" and yes, I do feel for those who try very hard to abide by lore and play a Dragoon. This is rather pulling the rug out from under them.

Thank you! I think there's another part that someone else capped that talks about Nunhs being leaders, though.

ExAtomos · **10-17-2016, 11:34 AM**

(10-17-2016, 11:16 AM)Val Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 11:13 AM)ExAtomos Wrote: Here is the Seeker page if this is what you were looking for.

On topic... I am also VERY surprised that they didn't couch things in vague terms like "a small number of..." or "few" and yes, I do feel for those who try very hard to abide by lore and play a Dragoon. This is rather pulling the rug out from under them.

Thank you! I think there's another part that someone else capped that talks about Nunhs being leaders, though.

It's mentioned in the bottom right square. Here is Kage's post to the OF about the discrepancy.

Quote:PAGE: 087
HEADING: Seekers of the Sun
Section: Culture

Is this a possible error? In the Miqo'te Naming conventions post, Nunh status does not equate leadership in a tribe and it is a rare occurrence. The culture section states "with each tribe centered around a strong breeding male (nunh) whose duty it is to form a harem and lead his people to glory and prosperity."

Is this perhaps erroneous a statement?

Val · **10-17-2016, 11:38 AM**

(10-17-2016, 11:34 AM)ExAtomos Wrote: It's mentioned in the bottom right square. Here is Kage's post to the OF about the discrepancy.

Quote:PAGE: 087
HEADING: Seekers of the Sun
Section: Culture

Is this a possible error? In the Miqo'te Naming conventions post, Nunh status does not equate leadership in a tribe and it is a rare occurrence. The culture section states "with each tribe centered around a strong breeding male (nunh) whose duty it is to form a harem and lead his people to glory and prosperity."

Is this perhaps erroneous a statement?

Oh, right! Then yeah, that may be what I was talking about. It's pretty ambiguous, but at the same time it could just as easily not be. I've seen multiple places state that the lore book was a bit rushed, but the could have at least chosen their wording a bit more carefully?

PhantasticPanda · **10-17-2016, 11:47 AM**

Going back on topic, one must consider The Order of the Knights Dragoon as a military branch of the Ishgardian. Special forces sent to do missions, often suicidal, with specific objectives relating to combating dragons. It even says the mortality is higher than any other fighting force of Ishgard.

The lore book uses the words that I should emphasis on. "Compromised of *normally* 30 dragoons" and "only 10 in active service."

Combine both these facts together, with the common workings of a military order, is that while there aren't many in *active* service, it may all be possible that there are many Dragoons on reserve to fill for the dead and the injured. I also doubt Trainee Dragoons count as active service members when they're prone to breaking their legs during jump training as stated in a levequest.

With the Dragonsong War over, there's not a big reason to keep as many active Dragoons around with many being on reserve for states of emergencies. (I doubt only 30 dragoons fought during Horde attacks when they're supposed to be the first line of defense).

No one has to recon being a dragoon. But a curveball is still thrown that many dragoons have been placed into a state of inactivity. But again, they are still a dragoon. Get a desk job, "retire" to adventuring or like (hell I forgot his name) the dragoon trainer that stepped down as the Azure dragoon to be a regular temple knight again. Though as others have said, there's no shame in a bit of lore bending. For plots, maybe there's a reason for a dragoon to be in service. Maybe the 10 are proccupied with other duties and more are taken from the reserves. Up to you!

Cailean Lockwood · **10-17-2016, 12:13 PM**

I'm not gonna take the lorebook and use it as a ruleset. If people wanna RP a Dragoon or White Mage or Summoner etc, then they can do that.

It's nice to see some concrete lore, but I don't mind people moving outside the box.

And I'm gonna flip off everyone who DO use the lorebook as a strict ruleset, trying to make others follow it to the letter and harassing those who donâ€™t.

Virella · **10-17-2016, 12:33 PM**

(10-17-2016, 07:38 AM)Hyrist Wrote: <Snip>

So were does it state she's training anyone but with the WoL? Give examples please. Don't take things for granted, please.

Also, they sell anything at the vendors. Just because some vendor sells it, I really couldn't take that as granted. If they are duplicates? Great, amazing, but that doesn't make them the real deal, or something Ishgard is allowing to be sold. For all we know they might be fuming about it.

I could slap on a piece of authentic Samurai gear from the ye old days. Does that make me a Samurai irl suddenly? No. Just owning the armour does not magically grand you the skillset.

You're making a lot of assumptions without ANY back up. Give me that, and we can continue. I hate people just wizarding lore out of their asses. Don't assume things, give me PROOF.

Sure, these things may happen, and I'm not going to say that is impossible, but don't make this a 100% lore proof thing while you have zero arguments for it beyond "Hey, one Dragoon is hiding due to being tainted with dragon blood and fears for her life, and vendors sell the gear."

Because god, if we're going to use vendors to justify lore, I can tell you it is not for all classes. Monk AF is forbidden in lore to be worn by non-FoR. Its a meta mechanic, not a "lets make this lore" mechanic.

So once more. Where is my proof? I'm genuinely interested. Stop assuming things, please.

Honestly, this is just such a weird idea about it. I know you're trying to help people by conjuring this out of nowhere, but after some thinking, I think people are just best to roleplay a retired Dragoon, one booted from the training, or just didn't make the cut at the end of the day.

I get this whole vibe of "my wandering lost sensei saw me as their only hope and trained me". Okay Anakin Skywalker. Sure people can do it if they really want, but I still don't see any proof of Dragoons doing it, beyond that to the WoL special snowflake exception.

ZOMGodzilla · **10-17-2016, 04:24 PM**

One would think that there being ten Dragoons isn't the Holy Knight's "new protocol". Ten is the directory listing at the Dragoon Office building, with a bunch of names scratched off. Those empty rooms can be refilled. Given that one levequest's text about Dragoon trainees, it's absolutely possible the spots can refilled.

Now when it comes to the issue of there still only being 21 "unnamed spots" left open, I don't see any issue whatsoever in players continuing to play Dragoons. The spots can easily be treated as ambiguously as IC time. When it comes to those organizations that don't actually have any sort of effect on the activity, behavior, protocol, etc of other players (even those within the same organization), I don't think numbers even shouldÂ be treated with absolutes. Does a player portraying one of the 21 unnamed Dragoons reallyÂ affect anything?

This issue, for the Dragoons, could easily be solved by shifting their backstory such that they only recently passed Little Dragoon School and became a fully-fledged Dragoon, taking one of the 21 unnamed spots.

A Dragoon in one of these spots doesn't even affect another Dragoon in another spot. What does it affect? Who does it affect? Is there really going to be an instance in which a Dragoon meets 20 other Dragoons and then comes across yet another? The narrative here isn't defined, and so any interactions between two Dragoons is easily warped during other interactions with unrelated parties.

Dragoon 1 and 2 interacting with player A has no effect on Dragoon 3 and 4 interacting with player B. They could meet, but even in such a case their personal narrative simply gets shifted. Even if twenty oneÂ Dragoons were tied into a single character's narrative, the multiple degrees of separation are so flimsy and unimportant meeting several more Dragoons wouldn't affect jack squat.

This being said, so long as the Dragoons are only recently titled through their backstory, I have no problem whatsoever with interacting with Dragoons. I would honestly be surprised if any of my characters met -personally met- 22 different Dragoons. Even if they did, interactions with some would undoubtedly be of the sort they don't remember or care about them, and their "spot" is now just as nameless as before, free to be filled by another Dragoon.

Aaron · **10-17-2016, 05:19 PM**

I'm really more concerned about how much weight this discussion actually even holds in the long run. In several months will people even care about there being 10 DRG or whatever as much as now or is this really just a controversial debate just for the sake of it over the immediate span of time?

Valence · **10-17-2016, 05:27 PM**

Well, it's playing something very special, numbers or not, to begin with. Even more so with that new lore, you can't really cut it.

I think there is actually a lot of interesting wiggle room and very fascinating stuff to be had around trainees actually. All the people that are selected, trained, go through impossible trials and arduous, humongous tasks in the thin hope of one day maybe becoming a full fledged dragoon.Â

I think there is a lot of interesting drama and RP shenanigans to be had not only with those trainees (think Estinien and what happens in his story, in Tales From Heavensward), but also with all those fallen dragoons, all the people that failed to pass that incredibly hard selection (you bet it's harsh, not only because the lorebook says it, but because an average of 30 active DRG?). All the hope, and broken dreams. All the social status shifting, glory and fame just at the grasp of the hand, only to fail at the end.

All of what can also be had around your average dragon killers in the convictory, not Knight Dragoons, but that can be noticed. Elevated to heights in the ishgardian society. All the vertical societal struggle in Ishgard is rather fascinating, and everything that actually happens around the Order of the Knight Dragoons who accept everyone from any birth, commoner or noble, is what I find the most interesting, not necessarily playing a full fledged, super edgy elite soldier.

In short yes, I think there is still a lot to do around all of those other people, the not quite Knight Dragoons, but that still hold similar abilities, their jump, etc. tl;dr: play DRG trainees, people aspiring to become one and very good with a lance, fallen almost full fledged DRGs and what you have. Those are nameless. They fix most of those issues.

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[Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes