RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Rahferu · **11-26-2016, 03:06 AM**

(11-26-2016, 03:01 AM)Virella Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 01:47 AM)R Wrote:
(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not) Â were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.
Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following
I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible.Â
I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.
Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself.Â
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks.Â

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was.Â
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.
The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong Â¯\_(ãƒ„)_/Â¯

There's confirmed lore saying that it didn't or couldn't possibly have happened anywhere else in some form, started in Ishgard, that's it, no debate? The lore book doesn't even talk about every single case in which someone has done something in the manner of a Dark Knight, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen in RP ingame.
Because that's not what I'm seeing said in the rest of this thread though. :/
People speculate all the time, and that doesn't really mean they're making up lore.
I guess technically depending on how you look at it, WE ALL make up lore to a degree when we RP characters.
That's just a matter of personal RP preference.Â

Furthermore, having different opinions or people wanting to speculate doesn't make them or their conclusions ridiculous, even if you don't agree with them.

Virella · **11-26-2016, 03:31 AM**

(11-26-2016, 03:06 AM)Rahferu Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 03:01 AM)Virella Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 01:47 AM)R Wrote:
(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not) Â were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.
Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following
I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible.Â
I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)

You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.
Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself.Â
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks.Â

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was.Â
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.
The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong Â¯\_(ãƒ„)_/Â¯

There's confirmed lore saying that it didn't or couldn't possibly have happened anywhere else in some form, started in Ishgard, that's it, no debate?
Because that's not what I'm seeing said in the rest of this thread though. :/

You don't see Gridanian Ninjas, or Doman Dragoons. Their fighting styles, cultures, religion ect is a very specific things, bound to a history to a specific area. Dark Knight is sadly enough one of those jobs as well.

Surely you can speculate on it, but it just as absurd of... for example, Buddhist Monks out of random just popping up in Medieval Europe, without said Buddhist Monks travelling there. Or Western Knights suddenly, with all their rules, believes and habits suddenly out of nowhere popping up in Australia.

Lots of the jobs in FFXIV have a specific background to them, and that to me is the beauty of this setting. It isn't a mix match, it is very diverse in cultures, religion ect. All cities, races have their own background, and thus specific fighting styles were created from a certain need, religion or culture. Because why would Limsa need Dragoons for example? They really don't. It is really just the Ishgardians who needed them!

Surely, there is evil and oppression everywhere, but it is explicate stated it was a counter measure against the Halonic Church corrupt religious priests. Effect and cause. Take that out of account, and you have a very wonky character in my opinion. You have no base any more for them, and merely the skillset, thus once more, in my opinion, kinda just... ignoring the rich background we have for jobs like that. Use the lore, try to fit your character in, like make them have travelled to Ishgard, got invested with the plight of the people, make them hate the corrupt individuals of the Halonic Church, let them become a Dark Knight.

Once more, there's working with the lore, and simply plucking the skillset from said jobs without wanting to make the 'sacrifice' to fit your character in it because you don't happen to like it. And I happen to be one of those roleplayers who simply won't roleplay it instead of breaking it. Because in my opinion, if your character's background doesn't fit with the canon? I see that as lore breaking. But that is once more, my opinion.

Anyhow, people should roleplay what they want, and each to their own Smile

Rahferu · **11-26-2016, 03:46 AM**

(11-26-2016, 03:31 AM)Virella Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 03:06 AM)Rahferu Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 03:01 AM)Virella Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 01:47 AM)R Wrote: You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.

My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.

But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.
Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself.Â
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks.Â

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was.Â
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.
The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.

Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong Â¯\_(ãƒ„)_/Â¯

There's confirmed lore saying that it didn't or couldn't possibly have happened anywhere else in some form, started in Ishgard, that's it, no debate?
Because that's not what I'm seeing said in the rest of this thread though. :/
You don't see Gridanian Ninjas, or Doman Dragoons. Their fighting styles, cultures, religion ect is a very specific things, bound to a history to a specific area. Dark Knight is sadly enough one of those jobs as well.

Surely you can speculate on it, but it just as absurd of... for example, Buddhist Monks out of random just popping up in Medieval Europe, without said Buddhist Monks travelling there. Or Western Knights suddenly, with all their rules, believes and habits suddenly out of nowhere popping up in Australia.

Lots of the jobs in FFXIV have a specific background to them, and that to me is the beauty of this setting. It isn't a mix match, it is very diverse in cultures, religion ect. All cities, races have their own background, and thus specific fighting styles were created from a certain need, religion or culture. Because why would Limsa need Dragoons for example? They really don't. It is really just the Ishgardians who needed them!

Surely, there is evil and oppression everywhere, but it is explicate stated it was a counter measure against the Halonic Church corrupt religious priests. Effect and cause. Take that out of account, and you have a very wonky character in my opinion. You have no base any more for them, and merely the skillset, thus once more, in my opinion, kinda just... ignoring the rich background we have for jobs like that. Use the lore, try to fit your character in, like make them have travelled to Ishgard, got invested with the plight of the people, make them hate the corrupt individuals of the Halonic Church, let them become a Dark Knight.

Once more, there's working with the lore, and simply plucking the skillset from said jobs without wanting to make the 'sacrifice' to fit your character in it because you don't happen to like it. And I happen to be one of those roleplayers who simply won't roleplay it instead of breaking it. Because in my opinion, if your character's background doesn't fit with the canon? I see that as lore breaking. But that is once more, my opinion.

Anyhow, people should roleplay what they want, and each to their own

I wasn't saying that it was specifically a dark knight either, just someone doing things very much like a dark knight does...and I provided a few totally legitimate reasons why that could've been. We know for a fact that there were individuals using dark arts of some effect BEFORE ishgard's dark knights timelinewise.Â
I actually see quite a few similarities between Warrior lore and DRK lore, too...but take that as you will. It's a matter of opinion.

And having something non-canon means it breaks lore directly. Honestly, if there's nothing in the lore that indicated something isn't possible or doesn't exist, then yeah, I think that it COULD be canon.
People can agree to disagree. But just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it isn't (or couldn't be) possible. I draw the connection BECAUSE I felt as though my character had a sort of "darkside" (which I had in place before I ever knew anything about dark knights tbh) and a similar outline.Â
I ended up completing the dark knight questline and liking it BECAUSE I felt it was similar to my character. I felt as though it fit with his backstory and all that.
And I don't see that connection as lore-breaking, either. I am actually considering having him become a bona-fide dark knight because of what I have learned. Potentially. But if people in this community are really so opposed to me drawing these paralells even with reasoning then I won't do it.

I'm also kind of new ish to the game. :/ so bear with me.

Virella · **11-26-2016, 04:04 AM**

(11-26-2016, 03:46 AM)Rahferu Wrote: I wasn't saying that it was specifically a dark knight either, just someone doing things very much like a dark knight does...and I provided a few totally legitimate reasons why that could've been. We know for a fact that there were individuals using dark arts of some effect BEFORE ishgard's dark knights timelinewise.Â
I actually see quite a few similarities between Warrior lore and DRK lore, too...but take that as you will. It's a matter of opinion.

Where does it say we had people using it before the Ishgardian Dark Knights, let alone people who were found outside Ishgard did? I've done the questline, I'm pretty familiar with Ishgardian lore, but I really can't find any of it. We only know the Dark Knight order eventually got the Dark Arts, much later then the first Dark Knight. That still doesn't however state there were people outside Ishgard who had earlier access to this, or to this at all to begin with.

Yes, Warrior and Dark Knight do touch upon emotions, but in a different way, but Dark Knights deal with the Dark Arts, whereas Warriors have their Inner Beast to deal with. Yes it is quite similar, but not exactly the same! I believe, if I'm correct, Warriors have a need to constantly seek out bigger threats to hone their skills for their Inner Beast, whereas for Dark Knights its purely focused on well, religious corruption of the Halonic Church (who knows what they may do come Stormblood though!)

Anyhow, I'm still really interested how you came to the conclusion the Dark Arts is used by other than/before Dark Knights came to be. Would you mind sharing me this information? Because I might have missed something then. I, and others have simply told you 'Well, lore states x', but if you can find lore, and not speculation, on it what myself and others might have missed? Awesome, give it to us, I'm very much interested in learning more lore! Not speculation.

Rahferu · **11-26-2016, 05:17 AM**

(11-26-2016, 04:04 AM)Virella Wrote:
(11-26-2016, 03:46 AM)Rahferu Wrote: I wasn't saying that it was specifically a dark knight either, just someone doing things very much like a dark knight does...and I provided a few totally legitimate reasons why that could've been. We know for a fact that there were individuals using dark arts of some effect BEFORE ishgard's dark knights timelinewise.Â
I actually see quite a few similarities between Warrior lore and DRK lore, too...but take that as you will. It's a matter of opinion.
Where does it say we had people using it before the Ishgardian Dark Knights, let alone people who were found outside Ishgard did? I've done the questline, I'm pretty familiar with Ishgardian lore, but I really can't find any of it. We only know the Dark Knight order eventually got the Dark Arts, much later then the first Dark Knight. That still doesn't however state there were people outside Ishgard who had earlier access to this, or to this at all to begin with.

Yes, Warrior and Dark Knight do touch upon emotions, but in a different way, but Dark Knights deal with the Dark Arts, whereas Warriors have their Inner Beast to deal with. Yes it is quite similar, but not exactly the same! I believe, if I'm correct, Warriors have a need to constantly seek out bigger threats to hone their skills for their Inner Beast, whereas for Dark Knights its purely focused on well, religious corruption of the Halonic Church (who knows what they may do come Stormblood though!)

Anyhow, I'm still really interested how you came to the conclusion the Dark Arts is used by other than/before Dark Knights came to be. Would you mind sharing me this information? Because I might have missed something then. I, and others have simply told you 'Well, lore states x', but if you can find lore, and not speculation, on it what myself and others might have missed? Awesome, give it to us, I'm very much interested in learning more lore! Not speculation.

I meant the term "dark arts" in a general manner--i.e., the use of taboo magic or abilities that otherwise pertain to things or motives that might be considered "dark" or "evil." NOT a reference to the actual dark knight job action/ability.Â

(I wasn't really sure how to word that, but you probably get what I mean. And people using general dark arts of some effect did NOT start in Ishgard. There were people using questionable/evil magic from waaay early on...like the Ascians, for example. I would classify a good deal of their methods and magic as "dark arts" because iirc there are instances where they summon voidsent and whatnot.)

I think the term is used a few times in the DRK questline and probably in other questlines too--I recall in the DRK questline too, the broad term of "dark arts" is used, and it probably isn't referencing the job ability (given the context and non-capitalized letters):

Show Content

And again, in the posts seen here from the lorebook, I don't see anything saying that there couldn't possibly have been someone adopting practices akin to a Dark Knight's outside of what it says--but it doesn't say for sure that there WAS, either. But because it doesn't seem to flat out say yes or no to this theory either way, leaves room for interpretation. Â

We have lore about the dark knights themselves, yes. But! Given many of the aspects about the dark knight (such as the desire to protect things, the whole "darkside" thing, etc), I'm inclined to wonder if something like it wasn't around at another time in some form.Â

I personally would be surprised that the potential or underlying ability for a dark knight's existence in some form didn't at all exist BEFORE people figured out how to control it and name it and such. (To me, that's kind of like Christoper Columbus "discovering" the americas...he didn't really. there were already people living there and doing their thing, etc etc.)
The Dark Knights combated the church with their abilities, yes. BUT WHERE did those abilities COME FROM? How did they get these abilities? There had to have been some kind of source, one would think. That kind of knowledge doesn't just grow on trees, after all.
Maybe I just think outside the box too much, idk. The lore doesn't cover enough imo.

Also, I am trying to explain WHY I think that could've been a possibility, given other things we do know for sure about the world of FFXIV.Â
I am not claiming that I am correct per se--rather, I am stating that the lorebook doesn't seem to say YES or NO to my theory definitively. I'm merely using evidence to support my views.

The lorebook is also a supplemental guide as I understand it, and it has SOME information to fill in some of the blanks and answer some of the questions. It's not the entire list of answers to the test, so to speak. There's plenty of stuff the lorebook alone doesn't tell us.
I completely understand the desire to adhere to the book, but when the book doesn't say NO THAT DIDN'T (OR COULDN'T POSSIBLY) HAPPEN, many people are going to interpret it either way.

Valence · **11-26-2016, 07:13 AM**

(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote: Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself.Â
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks.Â

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was.Â
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

I understand where your reasoning comes from, but I think it's inherently flawed. What it makes true is only that what you evoke is a possibility, not a necessity. You are speaking about the discovery of a science (magical), not about a societal change, fad, meme, or whatever.

It would have worked if the premise was instead "dark knights in the sense of champions against injustice probably have risen in most societies, aka batmans". As you say, as long as there is injustice, you will probably have people fighting it pretty much everywhere, in various proportions and scales, but you will always have at least one weirdo doing it. It's a safe assumption, also because we are not talking exactly about a hard scientific discovery.

For Dark Arts though... What makes me say it's a science? Because of the name, which is a first hint in itself. And most importantly because of the lore itself: Dark Knights didn't discover the Dark Arts until a long time after their formation. So, saying that Dark Arts is distinct from Dark Knights, even if it's their signature now, is true. Saying that Dark Arts is a possibility out of Ishgard, practiced by people other than Dark Knights, is also true. Maybe with different weapons too, since the blade seems to have very little to do with the Dark Arts themselves.

The problem comes when you assert as a fact that it's a necessity. No it's not. It would be like saying that because gunpowder in the 9th century is used by the chinese, that it's used in other parts of the world because everyone is in contact with saltpeter. Well yes, everyone can use it, but not everyone has discovered it at this time. In fact, only the chinese did, as far as we know. Not convinced? We can go with a less specific technics if you want. The wheel? You think that every man culture on the planet discovered it at some early age? Well, actually no. The Incan Empire for example, never invented it, which is quite baffling I can agree, considering the heights of their civilization.

Well of course you are free not to believe in that analogy, maybe it's clumsy, maybe I could have found better ones, but the fact remains. I just demonstrated that it's not a necessity by essence by finding two counter examples, which renders invalid the implication of a generality, but still lets valid the possibility of it.

In any case, I'm not saying you are doing it wrong or right, or passing any judgement on the matter. I'm just asserting that you are acting out of the lore, or what we know of it. You are not the first one to do so. Many players do. If it's what floats your boat, go for it.

NB: also on the fact that we are supposedly all 'making up lore', that's a bit disingenuous. I don't think I have ever been acting out of the lore myself... Possible, but I doubt it.

Virella · **11-26-2016, 12:43 PM**

(11-26-2016, 05:17 AM)Rahferu Wrote: I personally would be surprised that the potential or underlying ability for a dark knight's existence in some form didn't at all exist BEFORE people figured out how to control it and name it and such. (To me, that's kind of like Christoper Columbus "discovering" the americas...he didn't really. there were already people living there and doing their thing, etc etc.)
The Dark Knights combated the church with their abilities, yes. BUT WHERE did those abilities COME FROM? How did they get these abilities? There had to have been some kind of source, one would think. That kind of knowledge doesn't just grow on trees, after all.
Maybe I just think outside the box too much, idk. The lore doesn't cover enough imo.

Also, I am trying to explain WHY I think that could've been a possibility, given other things we do know for sure about the world of FFXIV.Â
I am not claiming that I am correct per se--rather, I am stating that the lorebook doesn't seem to say YES or NO to my theory definitively. I'm merely using evidence to support my views.

The lorebook is also a supplemental guide as I understand it, and it has SOME information to fill in some of the blanks and answer some of the questions. It's not the entire list of answers to the test, so to speak. There's plenty of stuff the lorebook alone doesn't tell us.
I completely understand the desire to adhere to the book, but when the book doesn't say NO THAT DIDN'T (OR COULDN'T POSSIBLY) HAPPEN, many people are going to interpret it either way.

I'm going to repeat what Valence said, it is just inheritely flawed the way you think about it. The fact more people did it doesn't make it any less flawed, it just makes people share your sentiment about how they see lore, and their degree of seriousness of it.

(Also to come back on that little Lore thing you did link, still doesn't state anything about dragons knowing it before the Ishgardians did! The energies they are speaking? Literally her lifeforce, what has to do with the GIRL by his side, not the Dark Knight himself. Please read the quests completely, not just the log blurb! It will help you immensely no doubt.)

You are a person who just like to take lore as something what is there, and vaguely based onto it, what is once more completely fine. Then there's folk who don't do that. When we see 'Ishgard was the place for the Dark Arts', until we get lore that disproves it, that is a fact. That is not up for speculation no more.

And I think that is were your speculation/theory/argument is inherently flawed to the core. You're not speculating grey areas, your directly trying to disprove a fact at this point.

Why? Forgive me, but it sounds as if you're trying to justify your own character at this point, more then trying to actually speculate lore. I love speculating lore. But once more, you're trying to disprove a fact at this point. And that doesn't fly well with people who are 'serious' about their theory crafting. We all need a base to work with, one you try to disprove with no evidence so far. Unless we get new lore come Stormblood, this is what we have, and this is what we need to work with.

But at the end of the day? It simply shows the diveristy between roleplayers on the RPC. We have people like myself who don't like breaking or bending overly much (unless you flat out admit you do it. I will respect you so much more then people trying to twist things so their characters look acceptable in their eyes. Hint, they still don't), or folk like yourself who bend and break, and vaguely base their characters onto ingame stuff.

And both stances are okay. It is not like we are going to roleplay with one another to begin with.

Anyhow what I'm trying to say is that at the end, you're arguing facts here. You can't disprove these facts, not unlike we get more lore down the line, because you have nothing to back your argument up with at this point. Discussion is fine, as long you provide material with it, and so far? You, and those others, have provided none to make the facts we know less credible.

Seriphyn · **11-26-2016, 01:04 PM**

This debate reminds me of what I often say that is that you don't have to roleplay a job to be a badass. It's just a simple logical fallacy most people get into, assuming that mechanical superiority equates to lore superiority.
For example, 95% of sword-wielding player-characters I meet are free paladins, rather than just swordsman. My character is not a free paladin, and I assume his 20 year experience in the Ul'dahn military would be outright superior to any free paladin in their early 20s. Just look at Raubahn. Similarly, a lot of monks and not many pugilists.Â

We want to latch onto these job crystals as RP justification for why our PCs are awesome, rather than relying on a vivid backstory or actually playing a badass that comes across as one.

As for dark knight, no reason you can't play as a zweihander-wielding fighter who uses generic aether in combat. And also coincidentally is a vigilante. Just calling it dark Knight, as people have already pointed out, ties it to Ishgard, the same way samurai are only found in Japan.

Kilieit · **11-26-2016, 01:28 PM**

Yeah, but then it's like

Oh yeah he wields a greatsword and he uses aether techniques and he has an impulsive side when it comes to injustices that means he can sometimes make reckless decisions and he has a manner that's unsettling to others and...

...so you're basically dancing around being like "oh yeah he's literally exactly the same as a dark knight but not a dark knight, because of reasons," just for the sake of, like... ~not being a special snowflake~? Which is just as pointless as adding needless complexity for the sake of standing out?

The reason my character has a DRK soul crystal in the first place is because another PC spotted his vigilante streak and was like "you're one of us" and gave my character said PC's own old crystal, even though I'd originally conceived of my character as someone who would be "like a DRK but not a DRK". It ended up with him becoming a DRK anyway just because of the natural flow of in-character interactions. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.

Valence · **11-26-2016, 02:05 PM**

(11-26-2016, 01:04 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: As for dark knight, no reason you can't play as a zweihander-wielding fighter who uses generic aether in combat. And also coincidentally is a vigilante. Just calling it dark Knight, as people have already pointed out, ties it to Ishgard, the same way samurai are only found in Japan.

I think his point was more about using the Dark Arts while not being a Dark Knight.

Personally I don't necessarily buy into the idea of "martial arts have been invented everywhere because people needed to fight bare handed in every culture, THEREFORE kung-fu has been created in many other places than in China", but I mean, it's still a possibility I can't rule out. To me it's not so much breaking the lore than just playing out of it.

But yeah, it's a delicate question since we don't really know if Dark Arts is a very specific school of using aether (like conjury, thaumaturgy), or just something you can tap into as long as your emotions are strong enough.

Caspar · **11-26-2016, 03:05 PM**

I think the difference is that barehanded is the basic form of combat from which all other methods of combat are derived, and thus it is logically nonsensical to suggest only one country in the world thought it would be a good idea to create a system of combat based around it. Where things get messy is the concept of magic "laws of physics": an inherent force within a fantasy setting, such as The Force in Star Wars or Chi in the Jianghu, is universally true within the setting, otherwise it isn't a law. The question then becomes how hard is it to access this truth? By this I don't just mean using it, but becoming aware of it even. Would someone reasonably be able to discover the same fundamental force independently somewhere else?

Ultimately there's no obvious answer and it depends on whether you buy the often unreliable narration in the game. If you look at say the Monk questline, Erik draws scrutiny upon the exclusivity and special nature of the Chakra, but that still doesn't determine the difficulty of accessing this power. He could be wrong, the Fists could be wrong, and it all depends too on how hard it was to discover in the first place. Can convergent development emerge around the same universal force somewhere else? We probably won't get an answer, but I think saying it's impossible is like saying once one man discovers gravity, no one else is capable of doing so.

Yet it is far more ambiguous in the case of Dark Knights. We don't know how universal or even what's genuinely true about their powers; whether Darkside is a state anyone can enter or if it evolved specifically from the pressures in Ishgardian society as Frey insinuates. Is it a fundamental force or just delusion driving pre-existing aetheric powers? The deliberately mysterious and insular structure of the Knights, which lack even a real order, makes it hard to really grasp how much they've researched their own abilities and how difficult they are to access.

When these ambiguities arise, ultimately the safest bet is to either do something close to the existing data gathered from the lore or come up with something plausible by assembling bits of lore together. Like the spellblade idea.

Faye · **11-26-2016, 04:39 PM**

(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not) Â were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak...

Valence brought up some good points. Yes, surely every civilization has unrest and corruption, and of course there are going to be people who fight against that, but the problem I'm seeing is... why would that manifest itself in the form of dark knights? Why is that inevitable, or even likely? Why wouldn't they just be regular ol' heroes and freedom fighters and good guys and adventurers? Why would they be people with giant swords wielding dark arts unless they adapted the idea from the Ishgardian dark knights? I'm just not seeing the correlation here. Every region of Eorzea has had just as much strife as Ishgard, but there's no native culture of dark knights for these places. I don't think the idea goes against lore so much that it's problematic to play, but I do think the justification is weak enough that you shouldn't push other people to accept the idea as potential lore or expect everyone to find your character concept favorable.

Edda · **11-26-2016, 05:53 PM**

(11-26-2016, 01:28 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Yeah, but then it's like

Oh yeah he wields a greatsword and he uses aether techniques and he has an impulsive side when it comes to injustices that means he can sometimes make reckless decisions and he has a manner that's unsettling to others and...

...so you're basically dancing around being like "oh yeah he's literally exactly the same as a dark knight but not a dark knight, because of reasons," just for the sake of, like... ~not being a special snowflake~? Which is just as pointless as adding needless complexity for the sake of standing out?

The reason my character has a DRK soul crystal in the first place is because another PC spotted his vigilante streak and was like "you're one of us" and gave my character said PC's own old crystal, even though I'd originally conceived of my character as someone who would be "like a DRK but not a DRK". It ended up with him becoming a DRK anyway just because of the natural flow of in-character interactions. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.

I think that's a pretty unfair assessment, and a bit hypocritical as well, considering your explanation of your own characters' creation. I wouldn't like to think that you consider the conception of your character to be pointless and done only for the sake of ~not being a special snowflake~. Actually, I hope you don't.

I see no issue with someone playing a character that skirts the line of being some job, without actually being one (since as we know, even the most common soul crystals don't exactly grow on trees). I also see no issue with one such character eventually coming across a soul crystal and taking up the mantle, as your character did. Whether that happens or not is at the RPers discretion. But I fail to see the logic in saying someone who RPs as Average Joe McDarkKnight Lite is only doing so to avoid being a special snowflake? Maybe I'm missing something.

Either way this is egregiously off-topic, so I apologize in advance for this. Good luck, OP.

Mordred Lyloche · **11-26-2016, 05:53 PM**

(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote: Actually,
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.

That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself.Â
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks.Â

You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was.Â
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.

I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.

I'm sorry you felt attacked and the like, enough to voice it on another medium, but I've got to admit that while the possibility exists that there are those who walk similar paths elsewhere in the world, utilizing Darkness, they wouldn't be coined Dark Knights and their own techniques and perhaps even weapon of choice would be wholly different. They would not be the Dark Knights of Ishgard clad in black armor and wielding outrageous greatswords.

We're given a lot of room to fill in the gaps with plenty of things, however, the fact of the matter is, the Dark Knights originate from Ishgard. My earlier comment stated that it is not so far-fetched to use something from your own character's culture / their people's culture, to tie them into such a thing. I.E. Sidurgu, as he came from Othard. We have a very clear example of someone from the only other place really explored in lore - thus far - completely unknowing to the traits of the Dark Knights. Thus, those from Eorzea and Othard must have gotten their knowledge of Dark Knights from Ishgard. Perhaps there are those within Othard who utilize the Darkness, but they are not Dark Knights nor would they utilize it in the same way. The only similarity would be their usage of entropic energies fed through emotion.

We're very aware of where the Dark Knights originated from: Ishgard.

You're allowed to speculate. The same as everyone else is, however, you're also allowed to be criticized. Thus, here we are. I always plug something before I pawn something off that is personal thought or not inherently lore. It's what separates lore from headcanon, a problem that seems to be very clear within our community.

However, I'm sorry you felt attacked.

Arrelaine · **11-26-2016, 06:32 PM**

(11-26-2016, 01:28 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Yeah, but then it's like

Oh yeah he wields a greatsword and he uses aether techniques and he has an impulsive side when it comes to injustices that means he can sometimes make reckless decisions and he has a manner that's unsettling to others and...

...so you're basically dancing around being like "oh yeah he's literally exactly the same as a dark knight but not a dark knight, because of reasons," just for the sake of, like... ~not being a special snowflake~? Which is just as pointless as adding needless complexity for the sake of standing out?

The reason my character has a DRK soul crystal in the first place is because another PC spotted his vigilante streak and was like "you're one of us" and gave my character said PC's own old crystal, even though I'd originally conceived of my character as someone who would be "like a DRK but not a DRK". It ended up with him becoming a DRK anyway just because of the natural flow of in-character interactions. I don't think it's far-fetched at all.

It's not that people want to avoid being 'special snowflakes', it's that people who want to follow lore to a T want to be able to play their character without later going 'oh crap, this new lore came out and now my character's story doesn't fit into it', or realizing that the lore for their Job doesn't allow a lot of wiggle room with backstories (such as WHM vs CNJ for example). Maybe they don't want to be pigeon-holed into a class, or maybe they realize that soul crystals are generally rare at large, or maybe if it's a Job with less lore they don't want to have to rewrite the character later.

There are other reasons for people to play non-Job (or characters who skirt jobs) characters that aren't 'I don't want to be a special snowflake'. It's rather insulting to those who do play plainer characters. We have many reasons to play them; not everyone is going to have the same reasons.

DRK happens to be one of those jobs that didn't have a lot of lore, and now that it does, people are trying to figure out how to make their character 'legit' in lore. One of the easiest ways to do that without tying them to Ishgard is to be a 'just' a dude who uses aether techniques coupled with his giant two-handed sword. A way to skirt the controversy of lore with WHMs is to be 'just' a dude who can use Conjury and heal things without having Succor.

« Next Oldest \| Next Newest »
Pages (3): « Previous 1 2 3 Next »

Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature.

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes