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Oyuu · **01-27-2017, 09:11 AM**

So, I've noticed a distinct lack of tournament-type RP events available to the EU crowd and as someone who can no longer stay up to 6am participating in Runestone or Grindstone as much as I'd love to, I fancy giving a go at running one of these things myself. Will it be a reoccurring event? Who knows. Will it be fun and well organised? Well, I'm gonna try and that's why I've come here for help. So my questions are:Â

1) Coming up with rules and a theme - I'm debating whether to come up with some original rules for my event but I realise this comes with the task of balancing said rules, and making sure it runs smoothly and quickly, and is easy to understand to the average roleplayer. What's the best way to do this? Are there any sources I could perhaps take inspiration from?Â

2) Do I actually need to come up with a different set of combat rules? - The Grindstone rules are well known and there isn't a niche for it currently for the EU crowd, but considering there's already several events already existing that use this system... Would it be better to try and come up with something more original? Or do you think a well recognised and approved system would be preferred?

3) Running the event - What can I do to ensure the event runs smoothly? What problems am I likely to encounter? What other things should I consider that I haven't asked about here? All tips and advice appreciated!Â

Thank you in advance!

Gegenji · **01-27-2017, 09:27 AM**

There used to be an EU-centric fighting tournament called Fight Club or something like that which happened on... Fridays? I forget exactly when but they held it out in Costa. I don't know if it's still going, but it might be worth checking into!

As for the questions, let's see here...

1.) A lot of the basic rules that are in the events that happen right now are there because they're pretty solid rules, so using existing tournaments for basic rule ideas definitely can't hurt. For example: Grindstone's no-killing rule and the Runestone/Spellguard's defensive systems that "absorb" spells to basically do the same. So, having that sort of rule in place is kind of a given, unless you're wanting to run a more gritty "no holds barred" tournament - which has its own drawbacks since I'm sure many of the participants would expect to be the ones doing the killing and would react poorly to being the ones being killed.

2.) You can come up with your own combat rules, but the GS ones are used as much as they are because they're exactly what you're looking for in Question 1 in regards to all the other rules: quick and easy to understand. Two people roll, highest roll wins, reroll on tie. Leaves it all basically up to RNG with (little to) no way to really game the system, which could happen with a different rule set.

3.) I think one of the big things about running the event is building trust from the audience you're running it for. That way they're willing to acquiesce to having you (and whatever additional staff you have) "in charge" for the duration of the event. Doing things like being on time, being polite and courteous to the participants when they're behaving, and being firm but fair when they're not. Things like that.

That's what comes immediately to mind. I'm sure others will chime in with their own thoughts. Overall, I'm of a mind that you should just keep it simple, keep it approachable, and keep it fair. That way you'll keep it open to the widest number of people.

ExAtomos · **01-27-2017, 09:27 AM**

Definitely reach out to people who run tournaments already, whether they are one on one bracket system (Grindstone/Runestone/Resistance tourney), team (Spellguard I think?), continuous like Fight Club, or vs monsters like the Festival of the Hunt and get their advice.

Me personally, the simple Grindstone rules are familiar, so I would be less likely to fight in an event that does not use them.

(I'm an EST resident whose play time is actually pretty early. Late events, while obviously not as bad for me as they are for EU players, are still a bit rough.)

Martiallais · **01-27-2017, 09:43 AM**

Hey just wanted to weigh in here because when The Dufresne Bellworks put on the Grand Tournament of the Fury last year we ran into a lot of the same questions you've noted here.

1) Since the rules have been answered I'll speak to the theme. And really that depends on what you're looking for and what sort of audience you're after. There have been (and are) a number of different fighting tournaments so aside from time zone what are you looking to bring to the table? With the Grand Tournament we wanted, basically, to try and recreate 'ye olde fighting tournaments' with the same sort of fancy flair that Ishgard would support. I'd suggest maybe poking at a few of the EU FC leaders and seeing if they have any suggestions on what their members might be willing to participate in. Chances are if you see something of a 'hole' in the community offering (which you've already started by noting the EU folks are possibly missing a combat tournament) someone else probably has thought about it too. And more support is -always- a good thing because you don't want to try and run something like this on your own.

2) Going to echo Gegenji here and say that the rules work by and large because the Grindstone has literally been around that near everyone knows of it or has seen/participated in it at least once.

3) ExAtomos has the right idea here: Reach out to the people who run these tournaments regularly. The advice offered by Warren especially was invaluable in helping our tournaments run smoothly. It was nowhere near the turnout the GS regularly sees but for a group of first time runners like us it was still a bit of a chaotic mass.

One thing I'd say remember is, that it's okay if behind the scenes things don't go exactly according to plan. Someone may drop out right before the fighting starts or during the event and you have to scramble for replacements or there's always someone who's friend is running late, etc etc....just try and keep a calm face for the crowd. As long as people think the event's running smoothly, it'll keep doing so. Smile

Oyuu · **01-27-2017, 09:48 AM**

(01-27-2017, 09:27 AM)Gegenji Wrote: There used to be an EU-centric fighting tournament called Fight Club or something like that which happened on... Fridays? I forget exactly when but they held it out in Costa. I don't know if it's still going, but it might be worth checking into!

...

Overall, I'm of a mind that you should just keep it simple, keep it approachable, and keep it fair. That way you'll keep it open to the widest number of people.

Having a quick look at the Balmung RP Calendar for the past month, all that's available in viable EU hours (BeforeÂ 5PM EST) are tavern/cafe nights. No tournaments at all and it's been that way for a while. :C Even then, there's no harm in introducing one more if it is still out there, eh?

Simple, approachable and fair was what I was already aiming for and you put it perfectly, thanks for your advice! The GS rules I have already used in past events for my FC and the like, and it does seem the easiest to use, especially in the case of introducing it to players that have never done competitive combat RP before.

Virella · **01-27-2017, 09:51 AM**

Don't fix what ain't broken! Grindstone rules is something we used back on WoW (well, we did drop the initiative and it tended to be a gentleman's agreement, but the system was basically the same). I think it's a very good system and most people are familiar with it, so why change it up at this point. I'm all for innovation, but I genuinely think the Grindstone ruleset just works very well for Balmung.

With the Resistance I never had much issues. I point it out OOC and IC not to push it too far. You're there to spar/train. I didn't have people purposely trying to blow off limbs or anything so far. So mixing magic and melee never was an issue with the Resistance at this point.

What I personally find very helpful is that I got a few people helping me out OOC. While I do the pairing up, they keep track of a spreadsheet for me ect. Running it completely alone would be utter chaos, even if the Resistance events don't draw as many people as for example the Grindstone! And healers, oh god, find them. They are so rare to find, and you will need them in case things do happen IC.

If anything, poke Warren for advice. He helped me out a little while ago as well with stuff.

Oyuu · **01-27-2017, 10:10 AM**

(01-27-2017, 09:43 AM)Martiallais Wrote: 1) Since the rules have been answered I'll speak to the theme. And really that depends on what you're looking for and what sort of audience you're after. There have been (and are) a number of different fighting tournaments so aside from time zone what are you looking to bring to the table? With the Grand Tournament we wanted, basically, to try and recreate 'ye olde fighting tournaments' with the same sort of fancy flair that Ishgard would support. I'd suggest maybe poking at a few of the EU FC leaders and seeing if they have any suggestions on what their members might be willing to participate in. Chances are if you see something of a 'hole' in the community offering (which you've already started by noting the EU folks are possibly missing a combat tournament) someone else probably has thought about it too. And more support is -always- a good thing because you don't want to try and run something like this on your own.

Aha! This is where I have prepared my butt and have already been conversing with different EU RP groups and FCs through discord (we even have a little group dedicated to organising events since yeah, sometimes we end up staring wistfully over the pond wishing we can attend some of these fantastic events that are at 2am on a school night. ;3; ) Anyway, it has been in discussion for some time and something I've always wanted to do. I just wanted to see what the RPC had to say!

The rest of your points were also helpful, luckily I have experience of being a DM for my FC and running other types of public events... I knew I wouldn't escape the chaos with this. D: Definitely food for thought and your advice from running your own thing is very useful!

(01-27-2017, 09:51 AM)Virella Wrote: Don't fix what ain't broken! Grindstone rules is something we used back on WoW (well, we did drop the initiative and it tended to be a gentleman's agreement, but the system was basically the same). I think it's a very good system and most people are familiar with it, so why change it up at this point. I'm all for innovation, but I genuinely think the Grindstone ruleset just works very well for Balmung.

With the Resistance I never had much issues. I point it out OOC and IC not to push it too far. You're there to spar/train. I didn't have people purposely trying to blow off limbs or anything so far. So mixing magic and melee never was an issue with the Resistance at this point.

What I personally find very helpful is that I got a few people helping me out OOC. While I do the pairing up, they keep track of a spreadsheet for me ect. Running it completely alone would be utter chaos, even if the Resistance events don't draw as many people as for example the Grindstone! And healers, oh god, find them. They are so rare to find, and you will need them in case things do happen IC.

If anything, poke Warren for advice. He helped me out a little while ago as well with stuff.

Seems like Grindstone rules are winning the vote! And ah yes, no killing rule I have already written down as that seems obvious and seems like an open can of worms for drama if not implemented. And yes! Employing minions to help is a good idea. I've had a few friends and FC members already voice interest in wanting to help - I will definitely make sure to have more than one healer there as well in case it gets bloody.Â

Also everyone's said to poke Warren and I will do just that!

Maia · **01-27-2017, 12:16 PM**

I don't have much experience with running tournament-style events, so I'll leave the OoC logistical advice to the experts.

However, this topic came up just the other day in my linkshell chat, so maybe I can offer a suggestion or two regarding the theme.

The general lamentation I saw was that there don't seem to be any major tournaments right now who encourage a mixture of fighting styles. For example, there's a non-magic tournament, a magic-specific tournament, and a fight-club-esque brawl tournament -- but those who use aether and melee in combination find themselves at a natural handicap when entering one of the above. (A solid example of this being IC dark knights, among other skillsets that combine magic and stabby-stab.)

With the inevitable popularity of ICly being a Red Mage on the horizon, there may be a real interest in a "Spellsword" tournament, or even just a "Mixed Arts" theme. The main challenge might be to try and pair participants up with those who use somewhat equivalent fighting styles due to the "anything goes" aspect, but I can vouch that there's a demand.

If not, there's always a Pokemon-style monster-battle tournament for consideration! Wink

GentleGiraffe · **01-27-2017, 12:51 PM**

(01-27-2017, 12:16 PM)Maia Wrote: I don't have much experience with running tournament-style events, so I'll leave the OoC logistical advice to the experts.

However, this topic came up just the other day in my linkshell chat, so maybe I can offer a suggestion or two regarding the theme.

The general lamentation I saw was that there don't seem to be any major tournaments right now who encourage a mixture of fighting styles. For example, there's a non-magic tournament, a magic-specific tournament, and a fight-club-esque brawl tournament -- but those who use aether and melee in combination find themselves at a natural handicap when entering one of the above. (A solid example of this being IC dark knights, among other skillsets that combine magic and stabby-stab.)

With the inevitable popularity of ICly being a Red Mage on the horizon, there may be a real interest in a "Spellsword" tournament, or even just a "Mixed Arts" theme. The main challenge might be to try and pair participants up with those who use somewhat equivalent fighting styles due to the "anything goes" aspect, but I can vouch that there's a demand.

If not, there's always a Pokemon-style monster-battle tournament for consideration!

tbh I think at least some of the reason why we don't have mixed tournaments is that it's feasible for your average punchy mckicky to win round after round against other non-magickal martial artists, but things get a little blurrier when the opponent starts slinging fireballs and summoning egi and opening holes to the void

but yes, I think as soon as SB is released and RDM is attainable we'll absolutely see mixed tournaments and duels. like you said we already have a sizeable fanbase of arcane knights kind of people that have been growing since the RDM announcement

Gegenji · **01-27-2017, 01:00 PM**

Oddly enough, I wonder if having such a mixed field might also take away "outs" for some of the folks who lose. One of the most common reasons I've seen some players use at the Grindstone for why their fighter didn't get as far as they "should" in the tournament is because they're "restricted" to not using their arcane (and Monk, chakra abilities are also not allowed!) complement.

Then again, that could be more on the character than the competition. Tonberry

Still, perhaps some manner of mixed combat may be in order just because the main goal is to have an event for the EU folks, and restricting them to one combat format or another without a feasible alternative (Grindstone v. Runestone) might not be so good. Hm.

Maia · **01-27-2017, 01:14 PM**

I totally understand the concerns that a mixed tournament might seem to disadvantage non-mixed-fighting-style participants, but if it's all determined by a /random roll, wouldn't it be inherently fair on an OoC level? It was my understanding that the OoC logistics make it so that any participant -could- win, regardless of the flavor text that describes how a character is fighting. So, in that way, I don't think anyone would be less inclined to win a round or the tournament itself, based on their particular fighting style. I know that "powergamers" are always a worry, but I always figured that the OoC logistics helped to even things out.

I admit that I'm not familiar with how these tournaments are run though. If everything is more freeform than I thought, then I suppose my suggestion of having an ultimately unrestricted theme wouldn't be as feasible, haha. XD;

Gegenji · **01-27-2017, 01:21 PM**

(01-27-2017, 01:14 PM)Maia Wrote: I totally understand the concerns that a mixed tournament might seem to disadvantage non-mixed-fighting-style participants, but if it's all determined by a /random roll, wouldn't it be inherently fair on an OoC level? It was my understanding that the OoC logistics make it so that any participant -could- win, regardless of the flavor text that describes how a character is fighting. So, in that way, I don't think anyone would be less inclined to win a round or the tournament itself.

At its simplest, yeah - what skills and techniques and whatnot are all basically fluff since it all boils down to who rolls better. I think the situation is more for the IC standpoint of explaining away how one fighter could beat the other - restricting them to a similar style of combat helps with this. However, we still have people winning the Grindstone using fishing rods and frying pans, so... it's not a complete catchall solution.

I guess it's inherently more difficult to explain why the wobbly trainee with the rusty sword beat a master of Allagan summoning than beating a seasoned GC soldier? I dunno. Laugh

Martiallais · **01-27-2017, 01:31 PM**

This was something we chewed on too but in the end we had all the 'champions' who'd won their specific tournaments (melee, magic, ranged, and mounted joust) fight it out to see who would be the grand champion. In the end we decided that everyone knew it was just for fun (and a sweet title) so everyone rolled with it.

In our FC training/sparring matches and such however, we don't have any kind of restrictions like that and let anyone use whatever skills they have available to them. It makes things a bit flashier but in the end during our last Bell Bouts (as we call them) it ended up being two melee types with access to some magic/enhancing abilities (a DRK and a WAR) slugging it out so it evened out well enough.

I'm of the mindset that as long as everyone goes in knowing that it's basically a 'any given day, any person could win' kind of situation, they can justify winning or losing however they like.

***Maril*** · **01-27-2017, 01:51 PM**

(01-27-2017, 12:16 PM)Maia Wrote: I don't have much experience with running tournament-style events, so I'll leave the OoC logistical advice to the experts.

However, this topic came up just the other day in my linkshell chat, so maybe I can offer a suggestion or two regarding the theme.

The general lamentation I saw was that there don't seem to be any major tournaments right now who encourage a mixture of fighting styles. For example, there's a non-magic tournament, a magic-specific tournament, and a fight-club-esque brawl tournament -- but those who use aether and melee in combination find themselves at a natural handicap when entering one of the above. (A solid example of this being IC dark knights, among other skillsets that combine magic and stabby-stab.)

With the inevitable popularity of ICly being a Red Mage on the horizon, there may be a real interest in a "Spellsword" tournament, or even just a "Mixed Arts" theme. The main challenge might be to try and pair participants up with those who use somewhat equivalent fighting styles due to the "anything goes" aspect, but I can vouch that there's a demand.

If not, there's always a Pokemon-style monster-battle tournament for consideration!

I was going to add this as well. It has always struck me as somewhat odd that things are so divided - is it because it's somehow too unfair to mix things? Why not go for it anyways? It's not like it's deeply unrealistic to meet a spellslinger that wants to sling their spells at you outside of tournaments. And they do need to be able to deal with close-range fighting.Â
There's no such thing as a fair fight at the end of the day, in a complete IC and not OOC manner I'd love to see something more mixed. Heck, how about having it in a challenging area/climate so that the environment can both give a hand and take a hand away, with the creativity of the players.Â

Something else which I'd never really recommend because people are so diverse with how they want to rp, but has kept me from participating (Beyond the timezone bleep) - is that there's sometimes some things that just don't seem like they really have a place in canon eorzea. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy lorenazi, I have a hard time submitting my character to an event which I risk they might not even be able to talk about afterwards because it'd completely wreck their understanding of eorzea. I'm not saying it's wrong to toss these concepts into a tourney, nor do I think it's a solvable thing, outside of some sort of roleplayer utopia. It's just a thought I had. So please don't eat me.Â

On another note, I'd love a pet fighting tournament. PETA might get angry though.

Gegenji · **01-27-2017, 01:57 PM**

(01-27-2017, 01:51 PM)Maril Wrote: Something else which I'd never really recommend because people are so diverse with how they want to rp, but has kept me from participating (Beyond the timezone bleep) - is that there's sometimes some things that just don't seem like they really have a place in canon eorzea. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy lorenazi, I have a hard time submitting my character to an event which I risk they might not even be able to talk about afterwards because it'd completely wreck their understanding of eorzea.

Oddly enough, I've seen more of that with the Runestone than the Grindstone. Magic just seems to allow for a much wider margin of unique takes. I can think of a few... interesting examples, but that's wholly outside the scope of the point here. And could be misconstrued as call-outs, which I don't want this thread to descend into. Laugh

Still, you have to do some explaining to some degree anyway if your battle-hardened thirty year war vet lost in the first round of the tournament to a goofball swinging around a stale baguette (didn't actually happen, just using it as an exaggerated example). I guess it's just a degree of how much... finessing of the events you have to do for the explaining.

And a pet-fighting league would definitely be interesting! I'm kinda surprised there isn't one yet.

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