RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

McBeefâ„¢ · **03-02-2015, 05:48 PM**

An interesting side question is if being an outsider can even improve rp.

Sometimes there are aspects of a group or culture that are hard to see from within it.

I dont think a woman is at a disadvantage rping a man for example. Instead I even think there are insights they can bring from their outside perspective.

Telluride · **03-02-2015, 05:50 PM**

(03-02-2015, 05:30 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(03-02-2015, 05:28 PM)Presidio Wrote: Well, I'm done here, this is really disrespectful to the discourse.
Unfortunately, this tends to happen quite a bit around here.

Some folks just don't have any interest in good-faith discussion, it seems.

As someone who is probably more experienced in this sort of discussion than you might think, and who is all too wary of what comes of it in a forum like this, I humbly ask both of you to consider the nature of these forums when casting your judgments. If you want, I can take off my Nate-hat, put on my tweed jacket, put my diploma on the wall, dust off my worn copy of Judith Butler's GENDER TROUBLE, and talk that kind of shop, but not here.

Zyrusticae · **03-02-2015, 05:52 PM**

(03-02-2015, 05:31 PM)Verad Wrote: Good-faith discussion is roughly equivalent to a passing conversation on your choice of mass transit. Perhaps interesting, and a viable means of passing the time, but only rarely transformative.

Eh. I'd still rather they stay on-track than not.

Even if my understanding of the subject only sees minor refinement, that on its own is good enough for me.

(03-02-2015, 05:39 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Off topic but still a valid point to the thread: Is the RPC truly the proper place for such a discussion?

Personally, I do not think it is.

If I understand the original intent of the thread, it was to discuss why there are seemingly more female characters in RP than male characters. My thought on it? People RP what they want to RP. Why not leave it at that? There is certainly a better place to discuss the nature of this topic than a role-playing forum.

It's directly related to roleplaying, though. A better question would be if this particular community is cut out for it...

(03-02-2015, 05:50 PM)Telluride Wrote: As someone who is probably more experienced in this sort of discussion than you might think, and who is all too wary of what comes of it in a forum like this, I humbly ask both of you to consider the nature of these forums when casting your judgments. If you want, I can take off my Nate-hat, put on my tweed jacket, put my diploma on the wall, dust off my worn copy of Judith Butler's GENDER TROUBLE, and talk that kind of shop, but not here.

Sure. I think it's really unfortunate, as I really like talking about it, but I guess it's pretty self-evident at this point what kind of place this is.

(03-02-2015, 05:45 PM)Velandrea Wrote: fanatics with backwards logic

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **03-02-2015, 06:02 PM**

(03-02-2015, 05:52 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(03-02-2015, 05:39 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Off topic but still a valid point to the thread: Is the RPC truly the proper place for such a discussion?

Personally, I do not think it is.

If I understand the original intent of the thread, it was to discuss why there are seemingly more female characters in RP than male characters. My thought on it? People RP what they want to RP. Why not leave it at that? There is certainly a better place to discuss the nature of this topic than a role-playing forum.
It's directly related to roleplaying, though. A better question would be if this particular community is cut out for it...

But that's just it. time and time again, threads like this one pop up and we see how the vocal part of the community reacts. It's not a fault with the community or the people. Nor the question, which was good-intentioned. But it's going to happen to pretty much any heated topic eventually.

At the risk of sounding "backwards" or "regressive" (and who knows? I'd like to think I'm not, but there's certainly societal norms that I've been steeped in like anyone else), is there really any merit in trying to explain a point to people who aren't listening? Or worse, explaining a point for an intended audience that isn't going to read it? As already stated earlier, the "good RPers" to one's own judgement will RP "good characters" and the same for "bad RPers". There isn't a battle there. But there is certainly a choice.

People are going to reach out and surround themselves with people who share their opinions and play style. Trying to force someone who isn't interested in something to think or RP a certain way (even if it's better for everone) just isn't something that's going to happen. It's just a hurt-feelings generator.

So let's all have fun with our respective groups, and try to get along. There is no perfect homogenized community. That is a myth.

Knight Kat · **03-02-2015, 06:03 PM**

Wow, I'm going to get my say in before this thread is locked.

How about we consider that Eorzea is not the real world, and has many many factors that would make it so our typical real world culture and gender roles do not apply to all things?

Roegadyn women. So big and strong that about the only males who might be just as strong, or stronger, are Highlander men and Roegadyn men. Female Roegadyn would probably make excellent hard-labor workers and soldiers.

Lalafell men and women are built almost identical. Size and shape is pretty much the same. It's often hard to tell the difference unless you see facial hair, makeup or gender-based hairstyles.

Miqo'te may be portrayed in a highly sexualized manner, but also consider that the lore absolutely confirms that males are born far less often than females. In such a society, males are too few to be the primary hunters, fighters and workers. Females would have to do most of that, and they would have to be good at it or they would die out.

You might try to apply typical real world culture and gender roles to Elezen and Hyur then, but there are many female Hyur and Elezen in the Grand Companies and Law-enforcement forces. You see them everywhere.

Then there is aether. It can be used by a tiny Lalafell to cast big fireballs to destroy magitek robots.

"Size matters not." -Yoda.

What is my point in all this? Gender roles and modern culture exist for a reason. But, the factors that make our real world culture what it usually is do not fully apply to this fantasy world. Sure there are sexualized portrayals of genders in Eorzea (just look at the female workers in the Golden Saucer...), but there are also legendary heroes like the female Dragoon named Rainette.

What is and isn't an accurate depiction of a woman or a man in this game can not be accurately judged based on our real world culture and ideals.

FreelanceWizard · **03-02-2015, 06:05 PM**

*clears throat*

So, all, please veer back on topic, if you don't mind. I actually found the substantive discussion rather interesting to read, so if not for yourselves, could you do it as a favor for me? Smile

For the matter, I think there's an argument that some of the tangents here could warrant their own threads (such as the portrayal of particular gender roles in the XIV setting).

#magicAdminHat

Zoetrooper · **03-02-2015, 06:07 PM**

It need not be locked (yet). Though I ask that people remain respectful and keep the more spam like-posts out of here. I'm probably going to have to give this a good pruning. I say if people want to discuss continue to discuss, if you're here just to be inflammatory, don't.

Desu Nee · **03-02-2015, 06:15 PM**

I really don't see what else can be talked about that wasn't said and done, but maybe that's my genuine dislike of this topic of discuss. I apologize if I upsetted someone here, but I genuine think the topic about gender position to play as Characters in FF14 seems to be all said and done. If anything, regarding gender view in FF14, I think it happens far less than the real world. Culturally wise, Eorzea is still in his 1400 esque with some exceptions, the ideals of fluid gender and discognitive personality aren't really significant, specially considering some societal structures in FF14.

Albeit, I can't say they DON'T exist, the gay couple npcs on the Wanderer Palace Hard quest is not only proof, but kinda warmed my heart. So, I think gender identity is still a small issue on Eorzea society, because you might die tomorrow due to a beast tearing your throat open, or stabbed by a bandit, or you might get sick and the elementals decide to just let you return to the soil.

I may be wrong whoever, I can't really say I'm a specialist of gender studies.

Zyrusticae · **03-02-2015, 06:26 PM**

(03-02-2015, 06:02 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:

Show Content

Spoiler
But that's just it. time and time again, threads like this one pop up and we see how the vocal part of the community reacts. It's not a fault with the community or the people. Nor the question, which was good-intentioned. But it's going to happen to pretty much any heated topic eventually.

At the risk of sounding "backwards" or "regressive" (and who knows? I'd like to think I'm not, but there's certainly societal norms that I've been steeped in like anyone else), is there really any merit in trying to explain a point to people who aren't listening? Or worse, explaining a point for an intended audience that isn't going to read it? As already stated earlier, the "good RPers" to one's own judgement will RP "good characters" and the same for "bad RPers". There isn't a battle there. But there is certainly a choice.

People are going to reach out and surround themselves with people who share their opinions and play style. Trying to force someone who isn't interested in something to think or RP a certain way (even if it's better for everone) just isn't something that's going to happen. It's just a hurt-feelings generator.

So let's all have fun with our respective groups, and try to get along. There is no perfect homogenized community. That is a myth.

I believe the mods have said enough, but I just wanted to note that I find value in discussion itself for its own sake, and I don't necessarily require that the other party fundamentally change from it, though obviously I have no interest in trying to speak with someone who is blatantly disrespecting me or my position from the off.

And, yeah, it IS a public forum, so even if the person I am talking to doesn't necessarily take it in and think about it properly, there are lurkers who will. And that, on its own, is enough for me.

(03-02-2015, 06:03 PM)Knight Kat Wrote:

Show Content

Spoiler
Wow, I'm going to get my say in before this thread is locked.

How about we consider that Eorzea is not the real world, and has many many factors that would make it so our typical real world culture and gender roles do not apply to all things?

Roegadyn women. So big and strong that about the only males who might be just as strong, or stronger, are Highlander men and Roegadyn men. Female Roegadyn would probably make excellent hard-labor workers and soldiers.

Lalafell men and women are built almost identical. Size and shape is pretty much the same. It's often hard to tell the difference unless you see facial hair, makeup or gender-based hairstyles.

Miqo'te may be portrayed in a highly sexualized manner, but also consider that the lore absolutely confirms that males are born far less often than females. In such a society, males are too few to be the primary hunters, fighters and workers. Females would have to do most of that, and they would have to be good at it or they would die out.

You might try to apply typical real world culture and gender roles to Elezen and Hyur then, but there are many female Hyur and Elezen in the Grand Companies and Law-enforcement forces. You see them everywhere.

Then there is aether. It can be used by a tiny Lalafell to cast big fireballs to destroy magitek robots.

"Size matters not." -Yoda.

What is my point in all this? Gender roles and modern culture exist for a reason. But, the factors that make our real world culture what it usually is do not fully apply to this fantasy world. Sure there are sexualized portrayals of genders in Eorzea (just look at the female workers in the Golden Saucer...), but there are also legendary heroes like the female Dragoon named Rainette.

What is and isn't an accurate depiction of a woman or a man in this game can not be accurately judged based on our real world culture and ideals.

Man, I see this argument a LOT.

The problem with it is that Eorzea is still a world of pure fiction, made by human beings with all the values and perspectives of humans from our own planet Earth. And of course, the other people playing those characters are all human beings themselves, all from planet Earth, and there is simply no way to ignore this. It colors everything, sometimes in small ways, sometimes in really overt ways (the dragoon gut window and the ninja hakama being really obvious examples, among others). Ideally both the developers and the players would focus on making the fictional world as believable and immersive as possible, but this doesn't always happen... hence this discussion.

Knight Kat · **03-02-2015, 07:04 PM**

(03-02-2015, 06:26 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(03-02-2015, 06:03 PM)Knight Kat Wrote:

Show Content

Spoiler
Wow, I'm going to get my say in before this thread is locked.

How about we consider that Eorzea is not the real world, and has many many factors that would make it so our typical real world culture and gender roles do not apply to all things?

Roegadyn women. So big and strong that about the only males who might be just as strong, or stronger, are Highlander men and Roegadyn men. Female Roegadyn would probably make excellent hard-labor workers and soldiers.

Lalafell men and women are built almost identical. Size and shape is pretty much the same. It's often hard to tell the difference unless you see facial hair, makeup or gender-based hairstyles.

Miqo'te may be portrayed in a highly sexualized manner, but also consider that the lore absolutely confirms that males are born far less often than females. In such a society, males are too few to be the primary hunters, fighters and workers. Females would have to do most of that, and they would have to be good at it or they would die out.

You might try to apply typical real world culture and gender roles to Elezen and Hyur then, but there are many female Hyur and Elezen in the Grand Companies and Law-enforcement forces. You see them everywhere.

Then there is aether. It can be used by a tiny Lalafell to cast big fireballs to destroy magitek robots.

"Size matters not." -Yoda.

What is my point in all this? Gender roles and modern culture exist for a reason. But, the factors that make our real world culture what it usually is do not fully apply to this fantasy world. Sure there are sexualized portrayals of genders in Eorzea (just look at the female workers in the Golden Saucer...), but there are also legendary heroes like the female Dragoon named Rainette.

What is and isn't an accurate depiction of a woman or a man in this game can not be accurately judged based on our real world culture and ideals.

Man, I see this argument a LOT.

The problem with it is that Eorzea is still a world of pure fiction, made by human beings with all the values and perspectives of humans from our own planet Earth. And of course, the other people playing those characters are all human beings themselves, all from planet Earth, and there is simply no way to ignore this. It colors everything, sometimes in small ways, sometimes in really overt ways (the dragoon gut window and the ninja hakama being really obvious examples, among others). Ideally both the developers and the players would focus on making the fictional world as believable and immersive as possible, but this doesn't always happen... hence this discussion.

Well I, and others who apparently make this argument "a LOT", are also human beings from this planet Earth, and are no more special than anyone else.

If I am capable of setting aside and rethinking at least some real world culture and gender perceptions based on the lore and portrayals in the game then surely others are capable of such too. That is the point of this argument that is apparently made a lot. I presume that there are those out there not thinking beyond their own cultural perceptions, and I made my argument in hopes of them stopping and thinking about it. Once again, this is something I am capable of, so I assumed others are as well.

I can also be guilty of my own cultural perceptions coloring my thoughts and views, but it is not an excuse to not think outside of them once in awhile. I see people saying things "accurate portrayals" then talking about real world context. I understand why they are doing it, but I assert it isn't entirely accurate to do so.

Velaena · **03-02-2015, 08:01 PM**

Posting my two pence here, because why not?

On the topic of the original post: I'm a female playing and roleplaying as a female character. She's femenine, a minor noble in Ishgard, and hopefully (providing that Ishgard isn't against women taking on typically male roles like the Catholic Church for example) the head of her small house.Â

I haven't really seen too much of a skew in either direction but then again I rarely visit the Quicksand since I'm rarely in Ul'dah for more than five minutes. From my trips to The Golden Saucer I've seen quite a few more female characters than male characters. Though this is to be expected as was said before females tend to prefer to play females, and there are more females in the world than males. Logically, there would be a wider female player base. I also think this says something about the franchise itself because through all of the Final Fantasy games there have been strong females -Yuna, Lightning, Fran, and Tifa to name but a few- so I think that the franchise as a whole strongly appeals to women.Â

On the topic of gender and society in Eorzea (paraphrasing because that's what it has become in the recent posts): I think that while Eorzea is a fantasy world it is heavily influenced by real world culture. There are gender roles like there are in the real world and there are not. There are fantasy constructs like Magitek and Aether, and there are not like The Holy See of Ishgard being a theocracy.

Â For me, this gives the world some substance and life. In any world there are going to be preconceptions about men and women, and there will always be people who go against those preconceptions. I think that's what can make great characters. A woman rising above the laws that society has imposed upon her (ala Queen Elizabeth I), a man who doesn't want to be big and strong who want to stay at home and be a househusband (ala my uncle because I can't think of a historical figure).Â

Likewise, there are gay characters in FFXIV so we know that in Eorzea you can be gay. I've not yet come across any trans characters, but that would be quite interesting. In that sense you could have a female avatar role-playing as a trans character so would identify as male. I imagine that would skew the statistics quite a bit. Are you counting the sex of the character, or the gender identity of the character?Â

**On a side note I wonder how these characters are recieved? Is this a normal thing? Is there a stigma against being LGBT or not? Is it different in the different city-states?**

Zoetrooper · **03-02-2015, 08:26 PM**

Earlier someone nabbed the statistics of one of their linkshells and that made me quite curious. I jumped into the FC and attempted to figure out the ratio of female to male characters in my group.

20:19

Despite having a recruitment freeze there are new characters daily it seems and I didn't even know who some people were. So there are some characters unaccounted for.

Actual factual RL female players? 4. That I know of.

While interesting do I think any of this matters? Nope. I'm very much of the opinion that you should RP what you want if it is fun for you. (It /is/ your $15 a month after all)

I would readily admit that if I had to RP sexy times (hurr nurr nurr) on my main (who is a male) I wouldn't really know how to handle it (cause I'm not). As for all other RP, I really doubt that gender has much bearing on anything. As far as I am concerned a man and a woman who receive the same training in swordplay can stab at things on fairly equal terms.

Something I have observed is that people tend to pay less attention to characters that are male and gravitate to the female ones. I'm not the only one that has noticed this, many of my friends considered using fantasia to make their characters female so they could actually find more RP. It became a bit of a running joke after awhile.

My own personal female to male ratio with my characters? 3:3. Go figure. I just play what intrigues me, and makes me happy.

Lady Whiteraven · **02-20-2017, 04:15 PM**

Amusingly, my first character was a female Roe (whom I still adore and will always hold a special place for me), but as she became more active in the community and started going to more events I found that she was being asked many disturbing questions, being hit on constantly, and at one point being continuously stalked by someone who couldn't take a polite "no" for an answer. It got so bad that I stopped feeling comfortable with the character and eventually took a 3 month break and when I came back I rolled up Benedict, my current long term character. IRL I'm male and found that although my Roe was far more welcomed into rp situations, they weren't all situations I wanted her to be in. As Ben, he is largely ignored in most situations as rp tends to center around the female characters in general. However, I find the rp done with Ben to be more enjoyable as a lot of the hassles of rping a female aren't present. Also as a side note . . . I formally apologize to any woman I may have roleplayed with when I was in my teens as I'm sure I was equally as annoying and bothersome.

Askier · **02-20-2017, 04:35 PM**

Holy necro batman!

Verad · **02-20-2017, 05:13 PM**

Dark forces stalk the forum, and threads that should not be rise to walk the earth.

Related to the topic, the Roll LS skews heavily towards female characters regardless of the gender of the player, and does so to the point when we are genuinely surprised when an event's roster consists mostly or entirely of men.

Unrelated to the topic, I'm trying to remember if it was this forum or someplace on WoW where somebody got mad at me for trying to "necro-shame" them.

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