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Ryanti · **06-24-2013, 06:35 PM**

I really hoped that this topic wouldn't show up in, of all places, a Final Fantasy community. One of the reasons why I'm into Final Fantasy is to get away with the obsessive fascination the world currently has with grittiness and dystopian mindsets.

I have a pretty character. Big whoop. Mostly it has to do with his heritage, and the fact that he's lavish, and has not been through much physical activity in his life up to this point. I assume that kind of bishonen prettiness is more accepted here in a franchise that is Japanese and includes the cultural practices of romantic bishonenism and vibrancy.

For me, it really has to do with preferences in taste and presentation. Console JRPG's, to me at least, have always been more romantic, idealistic, and vibrant then their western counterparts. Even if 'gritty' things happen in a 'harsh' environment, the elements of the presentation is the difference. Yes, Eorzea is a harsh world, and yes, it's a dirty world, but it's also a romantic and idealistic world. It's Final Fantasy. There are differences in the presentation and actions and events and even dialogue itself. Just how there are differences between JRPG's and WRPG's in presentation.

For me, it fits my tastes. I have always been fascinated by romanticized worlds. For me, they provide a stronger sense of escapism then stories that try to keep to realism. Sure, it might sound ridiculous for someone grounded to Earth, but one has to realize that this game has different atheistic tastes then those hour-long HBO series.

I gravitate to these aesthetic tastes because I don't get it anywhere else. I don't get it on TV, I don't get it IRL, I don't get it in pop culture. I get it in anime, and I get it in JRPG's. It's just my thing. It's what I like. It's what I prefer. It's what suits me. People who are needing more grittiness here can find their grittiness and ugliness in every other kind of entertainment medium they could possibly think of, especially here in the States. Just leave me a corner where I can live in a world where the fantasy element is ramped up to the point of idealism. It's what I like.

And thank goodness there is a medium out there that suits what I prefer characters/plots/a world to be presented like.

Final Fantasy and JRPG's in general have always been prettier. Always been more theatrical and poetic. I got the same kind of praise for making a pretty character in Star Wars during my time in TOR that people probably get here for making gritty characters in Final Fantasy. It's just something more different then expected, really.

This always ends up being brought up in one way to another when it comes to Eastern tastes.. 'Why the pretty?' 'Why the romantic' 'Why the-...'x'' ... honestly, sometimes it hurts my feelings because it makes me feel like the kind of imagination I have in my head and what worlds I prefer to sink myself into are frowned upon. Even in a place like this I see it's inescapable.

But please just understand that there are people out there that prefer it this way. Like I said before, it's a matter of preferences and artistic tastes. It's on 'the other side of the fence', and grittiness as a result of the harsh world is a statement made based on reasoning in the real world.. fantasy has nothing to do with the real world..

Shuck · **06-24-2013, 08:37 PM**

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: I really hoped that this topic wouldn't show up in, of all places, a Final Fantasy community. One of the reasons why I'm into Final Fantasy is to get away with the obsessive fascination the world currently has with grittiness and dystopian mindsets.

Wait, why?

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: I have a pretty character. Big whoop. Mostly it has to do with his heritage, and the fact that he's lavish, and has not been through much physical activity in his life up to this point.

My thoughts exactly: Big whoop. I'm not entirely sure why you feel the need to defend yourself.

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: I assume that kind of bishonen prettiness is more accepted here in a franchise that is Japanese and includes the cultural practices of romantic bishonenism and vibrancy.

Woah, woah, woah. Hang on just a goddamned minute. Not everything Japanese has to do with beautiful lady-boys prancing about in pretty pretty clothing.

This is Japanese:

Show Content

This is also Japanese:

Show Content

What you're talking about is a particular subset of pop-culture that has a global market. It's not even uniquely Japanese these days. It's certainly not the only method in which vibrance can be conveyed in character design or personality, and to suggest otherwise would mean a willful ignorance of every. Single. Other. Kind. Of. Media. On. The. Planet. Which I don't think you're trying to display. I mean really, someone with a more realistic take on the circumstances their characters are enduring is excluded from having a character with any semblance of energy?

Expecting uniform acceptance of any personal taste in media anywhere is crazy. Also, why would you want that? Why wouldn't you want a bunch of differing opinions to hold discussions with?

Why would you want everyone to sit in a circle, and nod their heads in agreement as they took turns talking about shit they liked? That sounds like hell to me.

All that being said, I still don't really know why you're on the defensive.

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: For me, it really has to do with preferences in taste and presentation. Console JRPG's, to me at least, have always been more romantic, idealistic, and vibrant then their western counterparts. Even if 'gritty' things happen in a 'harsh' environment, the elements of the presentation is the difference. Yes, Eorzea is a harsh world, and yes, it's a dirty world, but it's also a romantic and idealistic world.

Ok, now we finally, after a whole lot of "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" where no one was treading on you, get to the meat of your point. Grand. Personal taste is personal taste. Me? I grew up on those same console JRPG's, and came away from it with a completely different take.

Basically: I like Fire Emblem. In Fire Emblem, your choices count for a whole hell of a lot, and nobody is promised a happy ending. In the blink of an eye, shit can go south, and you just kind of have to deal. I'm sure that if the technology was around at the time, the developers would've included scarring and weathering.

My character? He spent some time at sea. Salt does some shit to skin. He's been in a few scrapes. Those're gonna leave a mark, because magic isn't gonna fix absolutely everything. If it did, there'd be...y'know, nothing to struggle against. And no fear of death. Just have someone magic it away.

He's been poor, and hungry, and wounded, and sick, and a part of hard labor. Those are things that I don't think should be ignored. If no experience leaves a mark, there's no growth. There's no progress. There's a group of static, boring supermen who are always impeccably dressed, and want for nothing anywhere ever. Why should they bother with the scrabbling mortals in the streets? Nothing's ever gonna effect them.

On the italicized bit: Is it that way for everyone? I mean...really? It's idealistic and bright for the people living in the slums of Ul'Dah? The busted-up, drunken pirates in Limsa Lominsa? The exiled and hunted Wildlings in Gridania? At the same time that you seem to be claiming that you have your right to do whatever the hell you want (and you do, don't ever think otherwise), you're kind of attempting to shove your lense in front of the eyes of everyone else.

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: It's Final Fantasy. There are differences in the presentation and actions and events and even dialogue itself. Just how there are differences between JRPG's and WRPG's in presentation.

Pin down the aesthetic that makes a "Final Fantasy" game. Qualify this statement.

Personally, I don't think you can. Everything about the franchise (I can't even call it a series) has shifted over and over again, that I would posit that it doesn't even have a flavor all it's own.

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: For me, it fits my tastes. I have always been fascinated by romanticized worlds. For me, they provide a stronger sense of escapism then stories that try to keep to realism. Sure, it might sound ridiculous for someone grounded to Earth, but one has to realize that this game has different atheistic tastes then those hour-long HBO series.

]

...Who's talking about Deadwood and Spartacus here? That shit's just as over-dramatic and romanticized as your preferences. They just throw a ton of consequence free sex and violence on the cake, where as you seem to want...I don't know. I don't really know what you're hammering at, other than "I like pretty, and no one can tell me not to."

I mean, no one's telling you not to. No one. At all. Not the original poster. Not anyone in this discussion. Not anyone anywhere. Frankly, I don't think anyone cares enough to tell you not to like pretty things, and commit to that indefensible position, so...y'know.

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: I gravitate to these aesthetic tastes because I don't get it anywhere else. I don't get it on TV, I don't get it IRL, I don't get it in pop culture. I get it in anime, and I get it in JRPG's. It's just my thing. It's what I like. It's what I prefer. It's what suits me. People who are needing more grittiness here can find their grittiness and ugliness in every other kind of entertainment medium they could possibly think of, especially here in the States. Just leave me a corner where I can live in a world where the fantasy element is ramped up to the point of idealism. It's what I like.

Ok, and this just doesn't make sense. You don't get it anywhere, except for the places you get it?

And then the rest of it: Are you seriously pulling the "My way or get out" stance? Because that's insanely toxic and childish. The people who like grit and grime and dirt are just as welcome here as you are.

Is their existence bugging you? Are you incapable of sharing space? I choose to believe that you're better than that, but correct me if I'm wrong.

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: And thank goodness there is a medium out there that suits what I prefer characters/plots/a world to be presented like.

There's a lot of those. Like...a ton. Most high-fantasy, to be honest.

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: Final Fantasy and JRPG's in general have always been prettier. Always been more theatrical and poetic. I got the same kind of praise for making a pretty character in Star Wars during my time in TOR that people probably get here for making gritty characters in Final Fantasy. It's just something more different then expected, really.

Wait. They've always been prettier? FFVII was set in a corporate dystopia. One of the "heroes" was a heavy drinking, heavy smoking, greasemonkey airship mechanic who swore at, and fought with his wife on a daily basis.

Rewind a ways: FFVI starred Locke. Described directly as a "Trail-worn traveler". In a world that was slowly being ground under the warmachine that was the Empire, with even it's Espers enslaved to the will of churning, smoke-belching machinery. Then a nihilist wrecked the world.

Let's have a look outside the Final Fantasy series: Earthbound. I mean, I don't know that I have to say a ton about it, but things god decidedly un-pretty in that series. It got downright terrible, and fucking sad.

Valkyria Chronicles is about World War II. C'mon. Largo Potter has a face full of scars. There's overt racism. The Edelweiss looks ramshackle.

I could go on and on. Your preference doesn't define a medium. Let's not pretend it does.

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: This always ends up being brought up in one way to another when it comes to Eastern tastes.. 'Why the pretty?' 'Why the romantic' 'Why the-...'x'' ... honestly, sometimes it hurts my feelings because it makes me feel like the kind of imagination I have in my head and what worlds I prefer to sink myself into are frowned upon. Even in a place like this I see it's inescapable.

But please just understand that there are people out there that prefer it this way. Like I said before, it's a matter of preferences and artistic tastes. It's on 'the other side of the fence', and grittiness as a result of the harsh world is a statement made based on reasoning in the real world.. fantasy has nothing to do with the real world..

If people disagreeing with you on a matter of taste hurts your feelings, then...I don't even know, man. I can't wrap my head around why you would feel personally put upon because someone else, someone who hasn't even suggested that you're a bad person or whatever the hell it is you're picking up on, has said that they have a different preference than you.

I don't know what you're trying to escape. Is it people in general? Is it differing opinions? Why are you trying to escape that? Seriously, there wasn't even a hint of an attack in that original post, or...any of these posts, but you've taken it upon yourself to start firing shots anyway.

You like pretty things. We get it. You could've just as easily said "I like X, and Y is my reasoning", rather than framing yourself as the victim of an attack that never. Even. Took. Place. Nobody said that your way was wrong. Nobody said that you had to do it one way. You were asked for your thoughts on the matter. Just provide that!

You don't have to pretend you're being persecuted in order to join a discussion.

Just...enough with this. Enough.

Rhynka · **06-24-2013, 08:56 PM**

(06-24-2013, 06:35 PM)Ryanti Wrote: I really hoped that this topic wouldn't show up in, of all places, a Final Fantasy community. One of the reasons why I'm into Final Fantasy is to get away with the obsessive fascination the world currently has with grittiness and dystopian mindsets.

Have you seen some of the Ul'dah story up to 20 or so? Ul'dah can be a frightening place if you're not rich or powerful. Pay attention to the quests in the game, there is a light and dark side to the game.

Aside from that, Rhynka isn't too scratched up because Razamir is quick to throw himself in the way, he's her meat shield. She does have a very furry set of brows and velvety facial stripes as she's a clan miqo'te and not a city one so I wanted her to look more exotic and feral.

Uther · **06-24-2013, 09:03 PM**

(06-24-2013, 08:52 PM)Beatric Reid Wrote: I'd like to note (even though it's been said already) that this discussion isn't an attack on people who enjoy playing pretty characters.

Don't worry. It's being seen as one anyway.Â

Everyone is so defensive and for some reason they think any difference of opinion is an assault on their kingdom.Â

It's a lot of "WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO RUIN MY ROMANTICIZED WORLD?!" when no one is. Those of us who prefer a world with consequences are apparently the bad guys for playing a game the way we want, even when we don't impede on anyone else's style of play.Â

The irony that people like us are "trying to ruin someone's idea of their world", despite them doing the same thing to us by complaining about how we RP a more gritty reality is pretty ridiculous to me.

It's a lot of hyper-sensitivity and belly-aching if you ask me.Â

Uther Skystrider keeps it real, and he always will.

Aysun · **06-24-2013, 09:23 PM**

Ryanti Wrote:I gravitate to these aesthetic tastes because I don't get it anywhere else. I don't get it on TV, I don't get it IRL, I don't get it in pop culture. I get it in anime, and I get it in JRPG's. It's just my thing. It's what I like. It's what I prefer. It's what suits me. People who are needing more grittiness here can find their grittiness and ugliness in every other kind of entertainment medium they could possibly think of, especially here in the States. Just leave me a corner where I can live in a world where the fantasy element is ramped up to the point of idealism. It's what I like.

Personally.. this is a very hurtful thing to say. I do plan on leaving you alone, now. Enjoy your corner..

ForestGuardian · **06-24-2013, 09:38 PM**

I'd just like to say that people's reactions to Ryanti's post were FAR more hostile than anything he said... I really don't think he meant to tell you that you can't play rugged characters, but whether you realize it or not, some posts have been a bit condescending toward "pretty characters" and the people who play them, and we see this in just about every game... Final Fantasy should be the LAST place we have to defend ourselves, because yes, the art style is very idealized and in general there's a distinct lack of realism-... People often have more balance, agility and speed than would be realistically possible. I, personally, am not a big fan of anime, but I'm not about to impose a western sense of realism on a game that's based around something else.Â

To everyone harping on this guy for this:

Quote:"People who are needing more grittiness here can find their grittiness and ugliness in every other kind of entertainment medium they could possibly think of, especially here in the States. Just leave me a corner where I can live in a world where the fantasy element is ramped up to the point of idealism. It's what I like."

I seriously SERIOUSLY doubt he was telling you to get out if you want rugged characters. He was NOT telling you not to play FFXIV, he was telling you to not make him feel looked down on for RPing a pretty character in a pretty world with other pretty characters. He was telling you not to ask other people to ugly-up their characters to achieve a sense of realism that isn't always present in JRPGs and Final Fantasy in particular.

Uther · **06-24-2013, 09:44 PM**

(06-24-2013, 09:38 PM)ForestGuardian Wrote: I seriously SERIOUSLY doubt he was telling you to get out if you want rugged characters. He was NOT telling you not to play FFXIV, he was telling you to not make him feel looked down on for RPing a pretty character in a pretty world with other pretty characters.

I think I speak for everyone when I say no one is trying to make him feel bad about playing a pretty character. I couldn't care less about how he envisions his character, and I don't expect he cares how I envision mine.Â

I doÂ think he got unnecessarily defensive, but maybe the rest of us seemed like we were insulting his choice. Whatever the reason, it was unintentional so let's just leave it at that.

Shuck · **06-24-2013, 09:53 PM**

(06-24-2013, 09:38 PM)ForestGuardian Wrote: I seriously SERIOUSLY doubt he was telling you to get out if you want rugged characters. He was NOT telling you not to play FFXIV, he was telling you to not make him feel looked down on for RPing a pretty character in a pretty world with other pretty characters. He was telling you not to ask other people to ugly-up their characters to achieve a sense of realism that isn't always present in JRPGs and Final Fantasy in particular.

Really? Ok, that's cool. Let's clear this up:

First, could you point out to me where someone was looking down on him? Because for the life of me, I can't find it. Not in any re-reading of the posts to date. Nor can several other people. If you've got your finger on the hot-button, so to speak, let us know where it is. That way, we, as a community, can avoid this pitfall in the future.

Now, barring that (as was stated, I just plain don't see where anyone was saying he was bad, and should feel bad), he did say, as you quoted:

Quote:"People who are needing more grittiness here can find their grittiness and ugliness in every other kind of entertainment medium they could possibly think of, especially here in the States.

Basically: Go somewhere else. This passage here says that there is a flood of media for these people to go to, and that we should...

Quote:Just leave me a corner where I can live in a world where the fantasy element is ramped up to the point of idealism. It's what I like."

Indicating that he was running out of bastions from an encroaching, consuming hostile force. Which he isn't. Because this force doesn't exist.

So. When we follow the words themselves, not subtext, not implications, not anything but the words that were written, we're left with this message:

I wish you would go to any of the other places you can go to so that I can stay here.

Which is not great. If you have any other issues in following this train of thought, feel free to ask.

Viper · **06-24-2013, 09:56 PM**

I don't believe for an instant anyone here was purposefully trying to insult anyone else. Â I do think however that the more we role with the thread the more likely it is to become a war of sorts.

Everyone has their styles, their likes and dislikes. Â I love spicy food, my wife doesn't, this doesn't make either of us right. Â We merely enjoy a food differently. Â FFXIV is basically a gamers buffet, let everyone have the dish they want, the best part is, we can all still sit at the same table and eat.

I thinK i've gone too far with the food thing..

Uther · **06-24-2013, 09:59 PM**

(06-24-2013, 09:56 PM)Viper Wrote: I thinK i've gone too far with the food thing..

I'm starving.

ForestGuardian · **06-24-2013, 10:05 PM**

There's a reason so many people have responded defensively to this topic.

Ryanti's post was just longer than the others, and more passionate... So I was pretty disturbed to see the responses to it.

I'm not saying that this is what you said, or what you meant, but this is how what you said could be interpreted, and how it could provoke defensive responses.

"...being a rough bitch visually is refreshing to see."Â
(Interpreted as preferable.)

"I personally feel that it shouldn't be that foreign of a concept."Â
("More people should be rough.")

"Pretty characters in a rough world just come off as very unrealistic to me."Â
(Needs no explanation... Saying an entire group of characters are less realistic than yours.)

"...looking fresh faced and bug eyed just doesn't seem to fit the world..."Â
(Final Fantasy's worlds are some of the worlds where it DOES fit.)

Rhostel · **06-24-2013, 10:23 PM**

I was eager to talk about this initially, but by the time I reached the end of the thread, my enthusiasm was stone cold dead.

Yes, Ryanti was overreacting, but if you read his very first sentence again, it's clear why: He's been hassled for playing pretty characters in other games. Seeing this thread obviously triggered some bad memories which prompted him to assume the same thing was happening here. It's not, and ideally he should have taken a step back then reread what people were saying.

That said, there's no excuse for anyone going out of their way to try to extract more aggressive interpretations from his post. He was being sensitive and awkwardly explaining his feelings, not trying to mandate prettiness for all. If you've managed to chase him from the community over this petty BS, I hope you feel some remorse over it.

Also, the title is misleading. It does sound like an attack, because it's specifically calling out pretty characters. The opening post does so as well, and it's easy enough to assume it's an attack rather than an admission of confusion or a confession of differing tastes. It really should have been called 'Rugged characters in a harsh world'.

FreelanceWizard · **06-24-2013, 10:24 PM**

(06-24-2013, 09:56 PM)Viper Wrote: I don't believe for an instant anyone here was purposefully trying to insult anyone else. Â I do think however that the more we role with the thread the more likely it is to become a war of sorts.

Everyone has their styles, their likes and dislikes. Â I love spicy food, my wife doesn't, this doesn't make either of us right. Â We merely enjoy a food differently. Â FFXIV is basically a gamers buffet, let everyone have the dish they want, the best part is, we can all still sit at the same table and eat.

I thinK i've gone too far with the food thing..

Nah. Food analogies are always good. Smile

They're the car analogies of the RP world. Or something. Smile

Seriously, though, I think the most important thing is for no one to take a negative stance towards characters that don't match their preference. FFXIV is a world with a lot of dark elements (Ul'dah, in particular, is pretty scummy; Limsa Lominsa has a dark past and people who seem to want to hang onto it; and the Empire is... well, they're just ridiculously wicked and full of style and panache to boot) and a lot of light ones. There's room for both the grizzled, scarred, battle-tested and battle-worn Roegadyn hefting her axe in her calloused hands just as much as there is for the stylish Elezen wearing the finest robes with his silver hair billowing in the breeze as he rains fiery destruction down. Both have support in this setting in different ways.

Personally, I'm likely going to focus more on the psychological scars on my characters due to the cataclysm -- loss of loved ones, ways of life, and the like. For me, that's a function of the existence of magical healing in the world, which is a completely different and often equally explosive topic. Smile

Ellie · **06-24-2013, 10:27 PM**

While I don't feel like there's any attacks going on thus far, I'd like to remind everyone that the forum rules require us to respect one another. We should try to both give each other the benefit of the doubt and be more mindful of how our words might look to those who read them.

It seems most if not all here can agree that there's nothing wrong with preferring idealism or realism to reasonable degrees. Let's build our discussions upon that, okay? Smile

ForestGuardian · **06-24-2013, 10:33 PM**

(06-24-2013, 10:23 PM)Rhostel Wrote: It really should have been called 'Rugged characters in a harsh world'.

Thank you.

You couldn't be more right about the title. The title sets pretty characters up to be on the defensive.

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