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Aysun · **06-26-2013, 10:44 PM**

(06-26-2013, 10:38 PM)Edricane Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 10:28 PM)Aysun Wrote: The posts I read earlier in the day were quite hostile. I suppose my problem with most of this is the tone your posts appeared to have with Kylin initially, and the fact that it was posted in a completely unrelated topic. If the tone was unintenional, then great. As much as people get after me about my tone, it bothers me when it's just okay for others to do it.

Alright, this is a forum, everything is written down. You can not take tone from something that is written. Unless someone is outright attacking someone else, there is no reason what so ever to assume someones tone over a forum. More choice words probably could be used in addressing things, but it's your choice to take the words as you want to. I see no attacks on anyone. Take a breath, step back when you read a post and try to see it from other angles. As it is said, we are all adults, please be adults, keep to the subject.

Once again, we arrive at that vicious circle we all seem to love getting into.. If there is no tone, why is it I get so much hell for mine all the time? This is completely derailed, which was never my intention. My intention was to post my opinion that the subject of what goes on at an LS leaders meeting being censored to avoid drama because a sensitive thing was being discussed was hardly something to get riled up over as some appeared to be. I thought it was silly to be preaching about transparency as if this were more than just a meeting of people discussing RP stuff, not a meeting of congress, as if our rights were violated or something. And I was just rather surprised as to who was bringing the subject up to begin with, and how.

Gerik · **06-26-2013, 10:48 PM**

(06-26-2013, 10:38 PM)Edricane Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 10:28 PM)Aysun Wrote: The posts I read earlier in the day were quite hostile. I suppose my problem with most of this is the tone your posts appeared to have with Kylin initially, and the fact that it was posted in a completely unrelated topic. If the tone was unintenional, then great. As much as people get after me about my tone, it bothers me when it's just okay for others to do it.

Alright, this is a forum, everything is written down. You can not take tone from something that is written. Unless someone is outright attacking someone else, there is no reason what so ever to assume someones tone over a forum. More choice words probably could be used in addressing things, but it's your choice to take the words as you want to. I see no attacks on anyone. Take a breath, step back when you read a post and try to see it from other angles. As it is said, we are all adults, please be adults, keep to the subject.

Kylin Wrote: Ok, before this thread proceeds, people need to start reading over their posts before spazzing on the "post" button.

Everyone is free to their opinions here, whether they be radical, moderate, or whatever. However, some of you need to really fix your TONE. That's my big gripe right now. Tone sets the mood for everything, and I've noticed that some here are coming off as way too abrasive/defensive/whatever. Stop it. Just stop. Like in real life, people have to modify their behavior in society regardless of how brash they want to be. This is no different.

Source: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread....1#pid28841

Varus · **06-26-2013, 10:49 PM**

Meh.Â

Just let the general community watch the meetings if they are THAT concerned.Â

If people want to watch, they can ask someone to drag them into the meeting channel - no leader should deny that to any member of the RPC. If such a thing does happen, well that's a totally different can of worms.

Eva · **06-26-2013, 11:01 PM**

(06-26-2013, 09:56 PM)Deirdre Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 09:53 PM)Aysun Wrote: I can't believe there is all this being raised over them redacting things. Especially from you Deirdre? You seemed ok with redacting all of your comments here...

While I think in future it would be better if the leaders approached it in a fashion that is more lik e"if the rest of the community can't see it we probably shouldn't talk about it," the redacting and such was agreed upon by the leaders present because the topic was sensitive. Can we move on? It's really not that huge of a deal, and in future they can handle it differently.

Well it's a good thing I'm not a Linkshell Leader participating in open talks, eh Aysun?
And apparently to some people yes, this is an issue. That is why the topic was brought up and that's why it is being dealt with.

While perhaps not a linkshell leader, you do apparently own all of the decision-making for the Wiki, you are the administrator of the large Skype channel that most RPers are directed to, and you seem to have taken on ownership of a voice chat as well. Â So it may be that you don't lead a linkshell community, but you are a very important and influential figure in this community and Aysun made an interesting point in spotlighting something where you'd redacted something you'd once said. Â I imagine you had good reasons for doing that, and I don't think anybody really leapt down your throat about that back then.

Now it's already been advocated that future LS meetings be unedited and most everyone is in agreement about this. Â Or perhaps we'll open the thing up to everyone. Â At this point the whole thing is starting to feel bureaucratic and burdensome, and my understanding is that we're all here to have fun.

This... is not.

Is there actually anything more here that needs to be discussed or can this please, please be put to rest?

Uther · **06-26-2013, 11:05 PM**

This next bit is about hostility in threads. If you wish to skip it, I have opinions on transparency below it.

I don't think anyone in this thread was being hostile at all until the last half of page 3... The second someone drops the "You're being hostile" card, things actuallyÂ get hostile.

Really though, we are quite literally in a public forum.Â I've never heard of any type of public forum where people just sit around and agree on everything. Furthermore, I don't get why every time there is a disagreement, someone ironically escalates it by telling people to calm down, and then someone makes it even worse by threatening to close a thread.

Poor Beatric yesterday put up a thread for a healthy discussion about grit vs. beauty in the world of Hydaelyn and even that got shut down because for some reason everyone thinks that any disagreement of opinion is a blatant and hostile personal attack.

Everyone needs to leave their seeminglyÂ extremely fragile egos at the door so we can actually have a decent conversation about an issue.Â

That's all I have to say about thread arguments.

Other than that, I think it's a no-brainer that LS meetings should be completely transparent. The redaction was clearly a misunderstanding, but the secrecy of these meetings is why everyone got paranoid about it. Besides, I'm only seeing two sides to this argument. Those sides are "We need more transparency" and "I don't care." I haven't seen a single argument for lessÂ transparency.

Shuck · **06-26-2013, 11:16 PM**

I do want to point something out.

Kylin Wrote:Regarding an individual: A specific individual was brought up in the meeting due to various negative interactions between said individual and several linkshells/individuals, including accusations of attempted sabotage toward the RPC in general. This is considered one of those rare topics that will not be fully disclosed publicly in the meeting logs/summaries in order to minimize drama. However, in order to maintain transparency, any member of the RPC is more than welcome to contact me and receive a copy/pasted summary/statement about this discussed issue privately. Note that no name will be revealed in this statement, however.

That's from the initial meeting. Now, we have a good amount of transparency, but I would mark this particular event as where my push for more started. I whole-heartedly encourage folks to take Kylin up on his offer here, and I still throw my vote on the side of "One more step in the direction of total transparency", in the form of folks who want to watch being allowed to watch.

'Cause, let's be honest: None of us that have been present to these things has any kind of vow of silence on what gets talked about. Now, I haven't been keeping records, but I'll double-down on Kylin's offer so that he's not hanging out there alone. I will freely talk about whatever (so long as it doesn't involve things like Private Messages. Because that's just unreasonable) with anybody that asks.

Anyway, I'm not sure where the idea of paranoia has come from. You can want to know what's up without expecting the gubmint to come and take your baby.

And really, that's all I see here. I don't see hostility. I see some statements? I don't understand how you can suss tone out of text. If I were to read this out loud, with an upward inflection, it would all sound like questions, even if it isn't. I'd sound angry if I were to shout it. But none of those things are conveyable via this particular medium.

(06-26-2013, 10:06 PM)Uther Wrote: This is one thing I can't stress enough. Any time any issue seems to come up, everyone gets so terrified of disagreement that they try to shoot it down and pretend it never happened.

A-goddamned-men. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Disagreement doesn't equate to hostility, and the cry of "YOU'RE BEING HOSTILE" in a civil disagreement shouldn't be used as a bludgeon to end any conversation someone is unable, or unwilling to continue.

That's not how we learn, and grow as a community. That's how you stagnate. That's not good for anyone.

Deirdre · **06-26-2013, 11:17 PM**

(06-26-2013, 11:01 PM)Eva Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 09:56 PM)Deirdre Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 09:53 PM)Aysun Wrote: I can't believe there is all this being raised over them redacting things. Especially from you Deirdre? You seemed ok with redacting all of your comments here...

While I think in future it would be better if the leaders approached it in a fashion that is more lik e"if the rest of the community can't see it we probably shouldn't talk about it," the redacting and such was agreed upon by the leaders present because the topic was sensitive. Can we move on? It's really not that huge of a deal, and in future they can handle it differently.

Well it's a good thing I'm not a Linkshell Leader participating in open talks, eh Aysun?
And apparently to some people yes, this is an issue. That is why the topic was brought up and that's why it is being dealt with.
While perhaps not a linkshell leader, you do apparently own all of the decision-making for the Wiki, you are the administrator of the large Skype channel that most RPers are directed to, and you seem to have taken on ownership of a voice chat as well. Â So it may be that you don't lead a linkshell community, but you are a very important and influential figure in this community and Aysun made an interesting point in spotlighting something where you'd redacted something you'd once said. Â I imagine you had good reasons for doing that, and I don't think anybody really leapt down your throat about that back then.

Now it's already been advocated that future LS meetings be unedited and most everyone is in agreement about this. Â Or perhaps we'll open the thing up to everyone. Â At this point the whole thing is starting to feel bureaucratic and burdensome, and my understanding is that we're all here to have fun.

This... is not.

Is there actually anything more here that needs to be discussed or can this please, please be put to rest?

Firstly, this isn't about me so I don't appreciate it being pushed back on me, because it has nothing to do with what I do on these forums. We are speaking about a public meeting, not basic forum conversations, so please stop diverting the subject.
I might be influential, but I'm not a moderator or a LS leader involved in these discussions. I simply ended up taking on tasks.

This thread has come to a pretty good close already regarding the opinions on the subject, there's no need for anything further. Again, this discussion was just fine until noses poked in.

If anyone has conversation further on the subject of LS Leader Meeting Transparency, feel free to post!

Corin Winterborne · **06-26-2013, 11:21 PM**

(06-26-2013, 09:39 PM)Uther Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 09:05 PM)Nate is Blue Wrote: The only thing I can think of is people wanting to rubberneck and /popcorn at potential drama or paranoia the that Big Bad Linkshell Leaders are out to get them.

Well no one's out to get anyone, because no one canÂ get anyone. It's ridiculous to think that anyone in this gameÂ and it's community has legitimate power over anything other than their own character.Â

That being said, I want transparency, not because I think they're the government and trying to conspire against me, but because it seems very cliquish to me to have secret conversations which could possibly be about some of usÂ and the linkshells we affiliate with and keep it a secret. It's a manners thing, not a security thing.

To me, it comes down to "What makes you better than the rest of us? Oh, right: nothing." I understand the need for organization between linkshells in a roleplay capacity so I'm not going to belly ache about the meetings themselves, but there's nothing so important in there that us puny mortals have to be left out.

That's how I feel about it at least. Maybe I'm crazy.

So then it doesn't matter if people have secret conversations about you or your character. Â You said it yourself:

Quote:no oneÂ canÂ get anyone. It's ridiculous to think that anyone in thisÂ gameÂ and it's community has legitimate power over anything other than their own character.Â

Quote:Â "What makes you better than the rest of us? Oh, right: nothing."

Not one of us has ever claimed to be better then anyone else. Â I'd suggest you stop trying to victimize yourself. Â The linkshell leaders are trying to facilitate an enjoyable experience for their members. Â I'd have to pose the question: why are you joining the linkshell if you don't trust the leader to have your best interests at heart?

Quote:but there's nothing so important in there that us puny mortals have to be left out.

If left out, you mean not being able to see the chat go on why it happens; have you seen the Skype OOC chatroom? Â It's practically unmanageable. Â There would be no way to have a structured meeting with that many people talking and questioning and interrupting.

Varus · **06-26-2013, 11:23 PM**

(06-26-2013, 11:21 PM)Nate is Blue Wrote: There would be no way to have a structured meeting with that many people talking and questioning and interrupting.

Then just make a rule that observers are NOT ALLOWED TO CHAT IN THE MEETING CHANNEL.

I could have sworn I emphasized this earlier.

Uther · **06-26-2013, 11:34 PM**

(06-26-2013, 11:21 PM)Nate is Blue Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 09:39 PM)Uther Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 09:05 PM)Nate is Blue Wrote: The only thing I can think of is people wanting to rubberneck and /popcorn at potential drama or paranoia the that Big Bad Linkshell Leaders are out to get them.

Well no one's out to get anyone, because no one canÂ get anyone. It's ridiculous to think that anyone in this gameÂ and it's community has legitimate power over anything other than their own character.Â

That being said, I want transparency, not because I think they're the government and trying to conspire against me, but because it seems very cliquish to me to have secret conversations which could possibly be about some of usÂ and the linkshells we affiliate with and keep it a secret. It's a manners thing, not a security thing.

To me, it comes down to "What makes you better than the rest of us? Oh, right: nothing." I understand the need for organization between linkshells in a roleplay capacity so I'm not going to belly ache about the meetings themselves, but there's nothing so important in there that us puny mortals have to be left out.

That's how I feel about it at least. Maybe I'm crazy.

So then it doesn't matter if people have secret conversations about you or your character. Â You said it yourself:

Quote:no oneÂ canÂ get anyone. It's ridiculous to think that anyone in thisÂ gameÂ and it's community has legitimate power over anything other than their own character.Â

Quote:Â "What makes you better than the rest of us? Oh, right: nothing."
Not one of us has ever claimed to be better then anyone else. Â I'd suggest you stop trying to victimize yourself. Â The linkshell leaders are trying to facilitate an enjoyable experience for their members. Â I'd have to pose the question: why are you joining the linkshell if you don't trust the leader to have your best interests at heart?

Quote:but there's nothing so important in there that us puny mortals have to be left out.
If left out, you mean not being able to see the chat go on why it happens; have you seen the Skype OOC chatroom? Â It's practically unmanageable. Â There would be no way to have a structured meeting with that many people talking and questioning and interrupting.

The whole point of my post is that it comes down to manners. If people actually had legitimate power and could do anythingÂ I could understand a sense of secrecy. But they can't. So it comes down to "Why are you talking about us if it doesn't matter?" It's just rude and cliquish.

I'm not trying to victimize myself because I seriously doubt I've ever come up in conversation. That quote was taken out of context. If you want to know what I meant look at the paragraph above this one.

By being "left out" I'm not suggesting we all get to talk, but letting us watch and maybe fielding some questions at the end would solve this problem.

As for my linkshell leader. I completely trust him as a more experienced roleplayer and I think he's a good guy. But that's about it. That's all it should be for anyone. I personally don't give a shit if he has my best interests at heart. It's a game. I'm free to come and go as I please.

But, really. If you're going to start quoting my post and trying to spin everything on me, at least read the whole thing. The main point was "It's not about security, it's about manners." Which apparently you missed because you didn't quote anything from the second paragraph... Which is the one that had my main point in it.

Corin Winterborne · **06-26-2013, 11:38 PM**

(06-26-2013, 11:23 PM)Tyonis Wrote:
(06-26-2013, 11:21 PM)Nate is Blue Wrote: There would be no way to have a structured meeting with that many people talking and questioning and interrupting.

Then just make a rule that observers are NOT ALLOWED TO CHAT IN THE MEETING CHANNEL.

I could have sworn I emphasized this earlier.

Why go through all that trouble? The meeting is for Linkshell leaders to communicate with each other regarding cross-linkshell issues. It's not to dictate policy to the members of the RPC. Â It's not meant to be a forum to discuss issues with the community at large.

Uther · **06-26-2013, 11:43 PM**

(06-26-2013, 11:38 PM)Nate is Blue Wrote: Why go through all that trouble? The meeting is for Linkshell leaders to communicate with each other regarding cross-linkshell issues. It's not to dictate policy to the members of the RPC. Â It's not meant to be a forum to discuss issues with the community at large.

Well the obvious reason is because people are asking for it.

Also "Someone sabotaging the RPC" is not a cross-linkshell issue. It's a community at large issue. So if "It's not meant to be a forum to discuss issues with the community at large" why is that happening?

Curtis West · **06-26-2013, 11:45 PM**

Edricane · **06-26-2013, 11:52 PM**

(06-26-2013, 11:45 PM)Curtis West Wrote:

Corin Winterborne · **06-26-2013, 11:55 PM**

(06-26-2013, 11:43 PM)Uther Wrote: Also "Someone sabotaging the RPC" is not a cross-linkshell issue. It's a community at large issue. So if "It's not meant to be a forum to discuss issues with the community at large" why is that happening?

I think you need a lesson in reading the whole post as well.

Quote:Regarding an individual: A specific individual was brought up in the meeting due to various negative interactions between said individual and several linkshells/individuals, including accusations of attempted sabotage toward the RPC in general. This is considered one of those rare topics that will not be fully disclosed publicly in the meeting logs/summaries in order to minimize drama. However, in order to maintain transparency, any member of the RPC is more than welcome to contact me and receive a copy/pasted summary/statement about this discussed issue privately. Note that no name will be revealed in this statement, however.

The emphasis is mine. Â The drama was between this person & linkshells involved. Â The "sabotage" was brought up as a result of the drama that was being discussed: not the primary topic of discussion.

Further, Kylin offered to disclose the contents of the discussion, only redacting the persons involved.

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Linkshell Leader Meeting Transparency

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes