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Red_Beard · **07-11-2017, 03:18 PM**

I am losing my mind over this and could use some help. I have been looking into whether or not Red Magics are banned like Black and White magics (seeing as how Red is a combination of the two). I have found nothing to answer my question. My assumption would be that Â it is banned/ illegal, again because Red magic is a balance between black and white magics, but I need a solid answer on the matter. Any bit of info helps... Thanks ahead of time!

Virella · **07-11-2017, 03:24 PM**

Not illegal, because it taps from their own reserves and not from the world itself, therefore it's no danger towards everyone!

Val · **07-11-2017, 03:25 PM**

Red magic isn't the same as Black and White magic.

Black magic takes from the world and, as far as I recall, White magic takes from the elementals. Red magic, instead, uses the caster's own aether instead of that from the world around them. The spells won't (or shouldn't) be as powerful--keeping in line with the Red Mage being a jack of all trades/master of none, but it allows them to cast the spells without having the same limitations of others.

As to how this knowledge exists, the black/white mages bailed after the war and developed the techniques to allow them to safely cast without harming their surroundings in the process.

I don't think it would be banned so much as very hard to come by since it's more or less ancient information that's only been passed down by those people. Though I imagine there exists ancient texts or whatever that could be found and such.

Coatleque · **07-11-2017, 04:07 PM**

(07-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Val Wrote: I don't think it would be banned so much as very hard to come by since it's more or less ancient information that's only been passed down by those people. Though I imagine there exists ancient texts or whatever that could be found and such.

This is all part of the RDM job quest(s).

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Zeizei · **07-11-2017, 06:11 PM**

This is a topic I've been interested in myself as it's a direction I've been planning to go with my own character since RDM fits the rogue/wizard multiclass concept so well. Â There's a couple threads about it already you might be interested in

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=19853

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=18784

The general consensus seems to be that the Crimson Duelists were only once faction of Red Mages, so there's no reason others would not exist. Â

The art itself also doesn't seem terribly difficult to pick up, provided you already have some talent for magic - so previous experience as a thaum or conjurer would probably be beneficial. Â

The magic itself is casted from your own aether reserves and isn't/shouldn't considered illegal anywhere.

This is, of course, what I've interpreted from what's been posted already and should in no way be accepted as absolute fact. Â It's RP though: if your concept is interesting and, most importantly, fun to you, then I'm sure most people would be alright with a little lorebending.

Erah'sae · **07-11-2017, 08:46 PM**

Also add to all of the above by a quote in the MSQ where the NPC asks another NPC to practice in Conjury and Thaumaturgy as the basis for Red Magic. Â There is no specific mention of Black Magic or Succor at all. Â

It might hold up as not being a product of the two banned magics on a mechanical level.

LiadansWhisper · **07-11-2017, 08:56 PM**

(07-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Val Wrote: White magic takes from the elementals.

White Magic doesn't do this. It takes from the world, just like Black Magic. Which is the issue. Smile

Arashin Kujqai · **07-11-2017, 08:57 PM**

I'm just going to quote a few passages from this reddit post the other day that will give you an idea of why red magic isn't illegal or bad etc.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/...se_people/

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Reddit Quote 1
Rdm aether is precisely explained in the game, but it is not clear. It takes some unpacking.

"To manifest more powerful spells, the first red mages adopted a method by which precise sword techniques would harness and amplify the energy of their spoken incantations--the mage's own physical form serving as an arcane accelerator."

First he states a goal: Cast big dick spells Implied problem: casting big dick spells with only your own aether fucking murders you Solution: developed sword technique that solves this problem Implied question: how does the sword technique solve the problem? Answer: the sword techniques harness and amplify power of spoken incantations (normal spells) Clarification: Specificaly, the act of spell casting accelerates the level of aether in the sword. Since the blade is being accelerated, the mage themself is the accelerator Result: Rdm's cast safe spells, but can still attain high potency by charging up their swords and safely dumping massive amounts of aether.

Specifically in terms of healing. We know that it is possible to safely cast small spells with your own aether, the danger is casting spells that are too taxing. This break point seems to be around the level 2 and higher spells (though a thm can safely use fire 2, it's it not hard and fast, but a good guide post.)

So a rdm can safely cast cure 1, aero 1, etc. which is all a rdm does cast with their personal aether. In fact, the only taxing spell a rdm would ever cast with their personal aether is raise. But, because it is only one spell, and presumably not ever spammed enough to drain their life aether, it's not a big deal.

Here is why: the process of dumping aether from the sword resets the rdm's personal aether. We know from thm/blm that any time there is a big imbalance in aether (such as a vacuum left by a lot leaving) it is natural for aether to flow in to refill it. The real danger isn't actually using up your personal aether like drinking all of the water in a glass, but rather in over aspecting your personal aether in a particular direction (this is why trying to cast blm level spells without the stone causes you to burn from the inside, your personal aether is too aspected to fire.) rdm's solve this problem by resetting their internal aspect (which never gets that far out of balance to start) during spellbalde.

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I'm also in the discord with the people that discuss this type of lore and concept for the red mage, as well as developing how it makes sense. In short, red mages are the combination of thaumaturges and conjurers, just amplifying simple and weaker spells through their focus and blade to make it stronger. Take thunder 1 as stated in the 2nd example, normally a dot used by thaumaturges. The red mage uses this skill by applying their aether into the blade and aspecting it to be thunder elemented, then adds their own aether and a small portion of their own aspected to amplify and "accelerate" it to be a powerful burst to send out. The sword absorbs the undesirable effects that black magic commonly has from using more powerful spells, such as casting Fire 3, flare and etc.

Spells like flare and the like used by a black mage without a shantotto stone would envelope your natural aether in your body in fire. Your mana reserves are basically becoming too far elemented to where your body can't take it. Imagine lighting your blood on fire from the inside and it ignites throughout your whole system. That'd be like flare, a powerful spell to use but also dangerous to one's self, the shantotto soul stone prevents this through amplification and control. This is why black mages still need to recover their mana, they're still using the technique, they just need to recover from it when they switch to umbral ice, essentially balancing their mana reserves out between being fire aspected and ice aspected, like cooling yourself off. Now imagine a thaumaturge, they only take a lil bit of ether (assume my example of blood still) and just cast somewhat light spells. This doesn't cross the line or go too far to cause them to destroy themselves, it costs less mana and isn't lighting up all their aether on fire at once, they're using a small portion that's balanced out by the rest of their natural mana reserves.

This leads into how red mages are unique. A red mage by my previous example is pouring their aether into their sword and essentially aspecting it there to cast rather than holding the aether that's naturally in their body to be aspected to fire. Think of the sword as a form of filter for all the negative effects, the red mage puts the aether into their rapier and it absorbs all the extra unwanted effects of giving your spell an element. When cast, it's released as an amplified attack or accelerated depending on the spell, while the sword still contains all the gunk that would normally be volatile and harmful to your being. We then unleash the enchanted sword attacks all together and discharge it naturally, then igniting the discharged aether on the opponent.

How is any of this relevant? Simple, the red mages were created from the Sixth Umbral calamity's war, from people using too much of types of aether that lead to all the ambient aether suddenly becoming aspected into water with the lack of usage of water spells. They then decided after that to keep fighting for the same cause and use safer techniques that were just as powerful but safe for the environment and themselves. So they developed a method that uses both disciplines basic forms of thaumaturgy and conjury, while still amplifying them to be nearly as powerful as black/white mage spells while only using their own mana still, rather than the ambient aether on the planet. The discipline is revolved around safer yet still efficient methods of magic by not having to aspect so much of one's own aether to be deadly, while also not aspecting the planet's aether again so much to repeat another flood.

tl;dr?: They created a method that would keep themselves okay to cast and also not cause another damned calamity. Black and white magic is commonly watched on or illegal because they're both deadly of killing the person from aspecting their own mana too much, like turning all their aether to ice and getting frozen, fire incinerating themselves from the outside, stoning themselves, etc etc etc... But it's also deadly to the planet without proper control, as using too much of the planet's aether creates a sort of "vacuum effect" that sucks in all the types of aether. If you use say only earth, fire, wind, ice, and thunder aspected aether, the planet basically goes "shit all I have left is water.... THERE'S SO MUCH" and essentially bursts out. The same could happen to any form of aether as well, assuming you used all of the aether but thunder, you could probably aspect heavy thunderstorms and lightning strong enough to leave craters in the planet. It creates an imbalance and disturbance int he natural balance of elements/aether, so black/white magic disciplines are more deadly and capable of reproducing unwanted effects like this. Red magic isn't, solely because of what was learned from the prior 2 magics.

Red magic was taken from the concept of the two disciplines but isn't the basis of them by any means since red magic uses your natural born mana instead of drawing from the planet's ambient aether or from another deadly source like the void. The only things red magic picks off the two disciplines is where they began in thaumaturgy/conjury and levels of power that invoked upon those 2 classes. Red mages just decide to manipulate the concepts to their own advantage than directly taking from them. Just keep in mind that black and white magic are disciplines, red magic isn't actually the two disciplines, just their fundamentals combined for their own purpose/practices.

Sorry my tl;dr: got long.. lotta this was repeated too, I got into it again xD.

***Nero*** · **07-11-2017, 10:08 PM**

Red magic isn't outlawed; as far as I can tell, it's just relatively rare (but not SO rare that you can't RP a red mage).

Weird thing is that the Red Mage trainer mentions being trained, but they make absolutely no mention of who trains them. Square Enix strikes again!

Arashin Kujqai · **07-11-2017, 11:54 PM**

(07-11-2017, 10:08 PM)Nero Wrote: Red magic isn't outlawed; as far as I can tell, it's just relatively rare (but not SO rare that you can't RP a red mage).

Weird thing is that the Red Mage trainer mentions being trained, but they make absolutely no mention of who trains them. Square Enix strikes again!

While they don't actually mention who exactly trains him, they do mention...

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Lil bit of copy/paste from the same discord but, I'd say it's fair someone among the Crimson Duelists trained him.

Valence · **07-12-2017, 06:49 AM**

(07-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Val Wrote: Red magic isn't the same as Black and White magic.

Black magic takes from the world and, as far as I recall, White magic takes from the elementals. Red magic, instead, uses the caster's own aether instead of that from the world around them. The spells won't (or shouldn't) be as powerful--keeping in line with the Red Mage being a jack of all trades/master of none, but it allows them to cast the spells without having the same limitations of others.

As to how this knowledge exists, the black/white mages bailed after the war and developed the techniques to allow them to safely cast without harming their surroundings in the process.

I don't think it would be banned so much as very hard to come by since it's more or less ancient information that's only been passed down by those people. Though I imagine there exists ancient texts or whatever that could be found and such.

More exactly, White Magic aka Succor draws upon the Land in the exact same fashion than Black Magic. Not from the Elementals. This is also why it destroys the planet as surely as black magic when abused. Succor is not Conjury, for which you pray and get attuned with Elementals to borrow from the land (or else Elementals would just have to block everyone from using Succor, and we wouldn't see The Stillglade Fane Police™ running around and pointing fingers at trespassers and whatnot).

Now the control over Succor is strongly enforced by Elementals and Padjals, but I suspect it wasn't that so in the time of Amdapor before the Elemental got pissed and flooded everyone. Pure speculation on my part on this specific bit but I also suspect that the WhM soulstone plays a role as important as gems of Shattoto for the BLM.

Red Magic takes aether from the user like Thaumaturgy/Arcanima does yes. And like Conjury can. Or like a BLM or any WHM can. Red Magic however still remains a combination of Black and White magic, and as such, can draw upon the land like the former do. I don't have the specific quote under hand anymore from the RDM questline, but if I remember correctly it's said that RDM founders especially imposed upon themselves not to draw from the land: it is thus a self imposed constraint and not especially part of the mechanics behind the magic.

I doubt Red Magic is banned for the simple reason that nobody's really in contact with remote places in Gyr Abania but it's ultimately hard to tell how that illegality of old magics dating back from Amdapor and Mhach was seen and enforced in Gyr Abania and Ala-Migho before their fall. However, I wouldn't bet my hat that if someone with conservative views was explained that Red Magic is actually just a combination of the two magics that lead the world to the 6th Umbral Calamity, that they would turn a deaf ear over the matter. (Do we have more info on how the Crimson Duellists were seen at the court of Ala-Migho?)

LiadansWhisper · **07-12-2017, 09:29 AM**

(07-12-2017, 06:49 AM)Valence Wrote: More exactly, White Magic aka Succor draws upon the Land in the exact same fashion than Black Magic. Not from the Elementals. This is also why it destroys the planet as surely as black magic when abused. Succor is not Conjury, for which you pray and get attuned with Elementals to borrow from the land (or else Elementals would just have to block everyone from using Succor, and we wouldn't see The Stillglade Fane Police™ running around and pointing fingers at trespassers and whatnot).

White Magic, like Black Magic, only destroys the land when it's used in excess. If Amdapor and Mhach had simply been using their magics for routine, small things, they wouldn't have pulled aether from the land quickly enough to cause serious issue. The problem is when Flare and Holy (and similar things) are going out over the battlefield hundreds or thousands of times. Conjury also draws from the land, but lacks the ability to pull aether at that rate, and so the land is able to regenerate between uses.

Quote:Now the control over Succor is strongly enforced by Elementals and Padjals,

There is actually no indication that the Elementals or Padjal have any physical control over who uses Succor or how it is used. They have control over the knowledge, but not the use, as far as I can tell.

Quote:but I suspect it wasn't that so in the time of Amdapor before the Elemental got pissed and flooded everyone.

Well, no, since at the time Padjal did not exist, and knowledge of White Magic was developed by Amdapor, and thus they controlled how it was disseminated.

Quote: Pure speculation on my part on this specific bit but I also suspect that the WhM soulstone plays a role as important as gems of Shattoto for the BLM.

There is nothing in quest text or lore that I am aware of that even hints at this. You learn some secrets from your Soulstone, but it is implied that you are merely learning them at an accelerated rate thanks to the Soulstone, not that you couldn't learn them at all otherwise. It is never once even implied that using White Magic without a Soulstone is detrimental or harmful in any fashion in the way that using Black Magic without a Soulstone will kill you

Red_Beard · **07-12-2017, 09:45 AM**

Thank you for all of the input and help! My next question, being that they are rare, would it be more or less frowned upon to roleplay a red mage?

LiadansWhisper · **07-12-2017, 09:47 AM**

(07-12-2017, 09:45 AM)Nobunaga Sakimuri Wrote: Thank you for all of the input and help! My next question, being that they are rare, would it be more or less frowned upon to roleplay a red mage?

Since there's no implication that the discipline is restricted beyond the logistics of finding someone to teach you, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

Red_Beard · **07-12-2017, 09:49 AM**

Again, thank you very much! I hope this thread was/ will be helpful and informative to other people.

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