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FreelanceWizard · **07-20-2013, 01:41 PM**

This is a great thread. Smile

I'm not playing a duskwight so I don't have much to add there, but I wanted to give some RL info in response to...

(07-20-2013, 12:32 PM)LeCard Wrote: Eva, it could also be a simple matter of exposure. (not sure how many people in the topic are from the USA, or even more so the south) But something interesting that I have noticed that occurred in the real world is that when the U.S. ruled that segregation was illegal and everyone started to truly live side by side( most importantly I've noticed are the children growing up together), The racist ideas dissipated very quickly (in regards to generations it took to remove). Specifically the Children of today see the stories of racist ideas and occasionally someone on some news program being accused of being racist and they cannot even comprehend why someone would feel that way because they are surrounded by the other races and see that everyone is the same, the smart kids are smart the jocks are jocks etc. but there isn't a category that one race holds claim to.

So, um, I live in the southern US, and there's still a lot of racism both institutionalized and casual. It's a lot better in the cities, but there's still a lot of inherent segregation, cultural clash, and "white flight" down here, as well as casual racial tensions and slurs. It gets worse the further away from large population centers you go and, of course, the older people are (inculturation is hard to change). Among the young, it tends to be ignoring racist behaviors and not understanding how they could be considered racist, which is why we have programs like Bridge Builders and the like to try to break down those barriers. I'm not saying that it's not getting better (because we've come a long way from the Reconstruction era), but racism still exists down here.

How that applies to the game is that even if wildwood and duskwight have gotten to a better state of relations, there's still going to be some pretty strong bias and stereotypes, especially among the older members of the races. It'll be often institutionalized and casual rather than directly active, though, IMO.

Eva · **07-20-2013, 06:23 PM**

Great discussions so far! Â I think it's interesting that we're looking at as being comparable to racism in the USA - something which has changed with time. Â While it's all somewhat speculatory, perhaps it is a similar dynamic.

(07-20-2013, 12:32 PM)LeCard Wrote: Eva, it could also be a simple matter of exposure.
...
Perhaps it is simply that Eva grew up around Wildwoods, and would therefore have potentially picked up some of their culture( even if unintentionally) and the wildwoods that watched her grow up would have of course seen that she didn't fit the sterotype that they thought she would. that could make things in their company lack the racial anxiety that might occur around other wildwoods.

This actually makes a great deal of sense. Â Apart from looking a bit like a Wildwood and being fairly mild-mannered and friendly, and her father being something of a recluse when he was alive, it's possible that her heritage was somewhat overlooked because she sort of became assimilated (perhaps unintentionally) by Gridanian cultural standards. Â She might have just been seen by some as "that chubby elezen girl that worked at the book shop" - and she lived in Gridania for over 20 years so it makes sense that its denizens would have seen her milling about and such. Â Perhaps by most of them she wasn't looked upon as a Duskwight, having integrated and been assimilated by that culture. Â I could also see where some more traditional Wildwoods (perhaps largely the more elderly) would still harbor resentments in spite of that. Â There's a plethora of good excuses for that being overlooked by many - though not all Gridanians (something for which I'm thankful).

(07-20-2013, 01:10 PM)Teardrop Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 10:13 AM)Kari Illderthane Wrote: Also shameless plug I am creating a Linkshell for Duskwight to gather all the surface world Duskwight together.

(07-20-2013, 12:32 PM)LeCard Wrote: and I would definatly join a Duskwight linkshell, could be interesting to RP some sort of lose affiation with others that way. It could also create an extra point of contact to pull Rogier away from his research and into interaction with others.

This could be something one Duskwight might palm to another secretly in passing...support from the shadows, if you need us, call, and we'll be thereÂ

This is also highly relevent to my interests and I would love to join something like this - but could never be involved with the leadership or management of such a thing for all the IC reasons mentioned here so far. Â Eva has spent most of her lifetime being extremely curious about her heritage and origins and she would love to be a part of something like this. Â I could also see where she might not integrate with it as fully as some other duskwights, possibly even being ill-regarded by some for not upholding more traditional views, or "fraternizing" with Wildwoods as much as she has. Â It's kind of an interesting stance, not fully being able to truly live up to either cultural standard's expectations. Â The dynamic reminds me a little of the plight of Worf from the Star Trek franchise in a way, for those who may be familiar with that.

But I am extremely interested in this LS concept and can't wait to hear more about it!

Teardrop · **07-20-2013, 06:56 PM**

Well, I think I've said what I have to say regarding the animosity aspect of Duskwight lore, and I think we have a good idea of how this whole concept might fare during actual role play. Â

Many of you have touched upon your Duskwight's family situation in previous posts. Â I've hinted at the social structure of Isobeau's family in both her wiki and her "then and now" story, but I'll spell it out in a little better detail here, so that we might compare our backgrounds to see how they might be like and where they differÂ Smile

Â .

Clan Mauvaix was an extended family structure, not so much because that is how I view Duskwight families might be normally, but because they conducted labor-heavy mining operations, so pooling family members into one central purpose was beneficial to them all, in order to perform works of a larger-scope than a small single-family pod might. Â In Isobeau's background narrative, there has been mention of at least the grandfather, father, uncle, and at least one cousin. Â "Clan Miners" were also referred to, who may be additional distant relatives and/or hired hands. Â There are almost certainly others in Isobeau's family unit (just, their life circumstances I have not detailed as of yetÂ Tongue

). Â

In her past, prior to the Calamity, I envisioned Isobeau to have spent most of her time underground. Â We don't really know if that sort of thing is indeed possible, due to the vagueness of the lore, but I see enough in some of you other's concepts to think that the general consensus is there are actual areas considered "Duskwight lands", or at least enough subterranean space that Duskwights actually could spend their time underground, vs the thought that they merely resided in shallow caves to sleep and shelter, and the remainder of their time is spent much like the Wildwood's might, ranging around upon the surface. Â I think there is further support to vast underground caverns and deep enclaves because the Duskwights differentiated themselves from the Wildwood Elezen through evolutionary survival adaptations made no doubt as a result of living the majority of their time underground (during the period those adaptations manifest themselves into the race). Â The lore also mentions ,Â a number of Elezen sought out a life of peace and seclusion in the depths of Eorzea's caves and caverns."Â so one could easily assume from this passage as well that there was more than enough territory for them to retreat into the depths as a whole, and live there in their own solitude.

Of course, being able to fit everybody and being able to feed everybody are two different things, and that touches upon another aspect of Duskwight lore; the struggle to surviveÂ Cool

Kari Illderthane · **07-20-2013, 07:23 PM**

This is the current introduction that has been wrote up.

Some of us have been taken away from our roots whilst others have had theirs destroyed.Â Still others watched those roots coil and turn inward, destroying themselves.Â Despite the reason, we've been left to the judgement of the surface world - our culture left behind like a distant memory.Â While we laugh and sing with those among us we count as friend, we realize others look upon us with disdain and distrust even after we have given our sweat, our blood, and our tears.Â They know nothing of us or the sacrifices we make.

We happened upon an old Sanctuary buried beneath the living world.Â As much as we wish to stay, we are aware of our obligations to the surface dwellers.Â For that, we cannot simply vanish.Â We cannot call this place our home.Â For abandoning them would serve as moment of culpability, as both our peoples now share the same threats - threats that can mean the end for us all.Â Even though this is our heritage - our life - we cannot simply forget who we are or from where we came.Â To forget would be among the greatest of crimes.Â Though what we may have found was little more than mere ruins, there was something far greater that we discovered within ourselves.Â Something which no building or walls could ever provide.Â We learned that together we form our own Sanctuary.Â We may all hail from different clans, but it is together that we now open our doors to you.Â This world is a dangerous place as we all have well borne witness to.Â The surface dwellers speak of survival in numbers and there is wisdom in these words.Â Come to us in the last bell before the new dawn and we shall welcome you in the shade of the Midnight Sanctuary.

So yea that's the current introduction I wrote up with Eva cleaning it up for me Heart

whilst getting feedback from Yssen and Xenedra. So now I want to hear what you people think. here is a few things that come to mind after talking with people.

1.First off I envision this Linkshell as a secondary Linkshell.

2. We don't talk about fight clu-sorry Midnight Sanctuary.

3.We are Duskwight, we are kin we are not above or below each other why? because we are Duskwight.

4.If thy brother or sister is in need of aid then thy shall answer the call.

5. Don't do anything foolish as your actions can cost us all.

Well that's my sort of ideas at the moment, I am also in the works of planning a festival of Duskwight culture and would love to gather your ideas as well.

Teardrop · **07-20-2013, 07:59 PM**

Response to a comment left on my "Fate Will Find You" story (see points 3 & 4 of Kari's post above ):

RE: Fate Will Find You [story]Â |Â
#7
Yesterday 03:51 PM(This post was last modified: Yesterday 03:52 PM byÂ Teardrop.)

Quote:
(Yesterday 03:09 PM)Syggfryd Wrote: Wrote:That was quite an adventure! Very bold for the rescuers to go back into a collapsed mine right after such a destructive event above ground!

As word of the destruction wrought by Bahamut's flight of terror upon the surface of Eorzea reached the surviving clan miners, relatives and mates of those trapped below, when faced with the choice to aid those who dwelt in the nearby town, or begin the hazardous excavation along Nymeia's apron string, the remaining Elezen of Clan Mauvaix spoke as one.

"We are Duskwight. Â Rhalgr take the surface, there are clansmen to bring homeÂ Â !"

Kyatai · **07-21-2013, 02:05 AM**

I would join the Midnight Sanctuary LS as well.
And... I absolutely love this discussion. I had EVERY intent on working on my characters' bios tonight- but got caught up in Calli's Miqo'te thread and this one. haha
Both... very awesome, very good discussions on the two types of "races" looks like I'm gunna be playing.

I'm getting excited.
I can't wait to work with you all on this!

Lastly... not to derail the subject at hand, regarding LeCard's (and Freelance Wizard's) comments about the correlation of race in the US to Wildwood vs Duskwright, few things:
IRL-
I also live in the Southern US...
In addition to being a Military brat and traveling RN...
And it is my observation that through my travels not only living in the South, but all over the US, that though racism does exist (some very blatant)... it is absolutely NOT isolated to the South. In fact, I found much more of it in the Midwest and North than the South. The South just gets more attention and are more demonized due to history. But also makes us far more sensitive to NOT being racist. And in this, I'm talking specifically of "white vs black."

As an anthropologist, I find the topic of division based on skin color to be absolutely ludicrous. One's skin color has absolutely nothing to do with the mental capabilities of a person. Genetics DOES have a 'say' in this, and in physical abilities and so on- but face it, folks... Earth is made up of mutts. ESPECIALLY in America. It is my belief that if the pot was not continued to be stirred by those wishing to continue to place a dividing line between skin shades, that people just wouldn't care anymore before long. I mean, really... culture is what divides us, not skin color. That is seen clearly in lightskinned 'African Americans', 'Latino Americians' and 'Native Americans' and ... and 'Caucasian Americans' who were raised as a member of another racial culture. You are who your culture/family raised you to be. Skin color is simply an evolutionary adaptation to the amount of cloud cover of our ancestors. And... we are all slowly becoming a shade of brown.
Tl;dr- Dividing folks based on skin color is asinine.

SO!
Relevance to this discussion: Considering that in the US had a variety of 'desegregation' episodes with the most recent being the African Americans in the 1960's, I have to correlate my beliefs and observations to Eorzea. Today, 40 years later, there are still lingering 'senses' of feelings of racism threaded throughout, but it is not always 'black vs white' or 'white vs black'. It is not always blatant- in fact, it is rarely so anymore. There are pockets of pure hatred on either side, but those pockets tend to keep to the background and only rear their ugly heads at times of duress/perceived duress. There is legislation that passively favors one over the other. There are jobs/opportunities that are offered (or removed) based on skin color... but it is typically subtle for fear of reprecussions.
Now... will Eorzea be similiar?
One ponders.

In Gridania, I see the racism to be more overt. More violent and insulting. But heck- the Wildwood seem pretty racist and resistant against ANYONE that is not 'one of them'- DW or not. I mean... granted... my DW starting city -was- Gridania on Balmung Beta... but I also started a Miqo there, and she got the same treatment. So here? yeah... oppression is likely. Torches and pitchforks if you don't behave EXACTLY as told. And... I wager skin tone would play a huge role in this as well. If an Elezen could 'pass' as Wildwood (much like a lightskinned African American during the '60's and even back to the time of the Civil War), they would be treated better. Given more opportunities. Perhaps the 'truth of their birth' being ignored (until such time as it was more beneficial/profitable to bring it up and 'knock them down a notch'). Which, IMHO, could give creedence to Eva's character's experiences.

In Ul'Dah, I sense a more cosmopolitan and globally accepting attitude. No one seemed to care one way or the other what 'race' you were... And oppression here would likely be met negatively. Or at the very most, be subtle- perhaps in the form of pricing of goods.
Cannot speak for Limsa...

So it is not inconceivable that similar feelings might exist in Eorzea as do on Earth... or even less so. I mean, we're talking segregation and hostilities between Wildwood and Duskwright taking place hundreds of years ago- not mere 40. But we're also talking about recent wars/calamities drawing us all together again... and perhaps stirring the pot again and old resentments/traditional hatreds resurfacing. Especially as Elezen are said to live a bit longer than Hyur, so the 'hundreds of years ago' separation might not be as 'distant' as it might be for a Hyur.

Now... if the pot was continued to be stirred by the DW's (WW are traitors, betrayed our Elezen cultures, weakened themselves to cater to the Hyur, etc) and the WW (DW are arrogant, cowardly, thieves, backstabbers, etc), thenÂ we could see hostilities now. But I seriously doubt outright prejudice would be tolerated... well, not in Ul'dah anyway. (I really can NOT speak to Gridania as I did not spend ANY time there in Beta past L2...) I suppose the only lingering global 'prejudice' might merely be based on stereotype: all DW are thieves and backstabbers.

So... post went on longer than I planned. Apologies.

Oh... but wanted to add: no one should ever feel uncomfortable RPing racism or prejudice or whatever against my DW. If it is in your character's nature and RP to do so, do it. IC is IC, OOC is OOC. I will not color my OOC opinion of you based on your IC character's behaviour.
Wink

In fact... well Ok I might be lying. I might actually like you MORE for causing a bit of conflict and challenge into my RP. haha

LeCard · **07-21-2013, 02:46 AM**

(07-21-2013, 02:05 AM)Kyata Wrote: (numbers added for clarity of my post)
1)Lastly... not to derail the subject at hand, regarding LeCard's (and Freelance Wizard's) comments about the correlation of race in the US to Wildwood vs Duskwright, few things:
IRL-
I also live in the Southern US...
In addition to being a Military brat and traveling RN...

As an anthropologist, I find the topic of division based on skin color to be absolutely ludicrous. One's skin color has absolutely nothing to do with the mental capabilities of a person. Genetics DOES have a 'say' in this, and in physical abilities and so on- but face it, folks... Earth is made up of mutts. ESPECIALLY in America.
Tl;dr- Dividing folks based on skin color is asinine.

SO!
2)In Gridania, I see the racism to be more overt. More violent and insulting. But heck- the Wildwood seem pretty racist and resistant against ANYONE that is not 'one of them'- DW or not. I mean... granted... my DW starting city -was- Gridania on Balmung Beta... but I also started a Miqo there, and she got the same treatment. So here? yeah... oppression is likely. Torches and pitchforks if you don't behave EXACTLY as told.

And... I wager skin tone would play a huge role in this as well. If an Elezen could 'pass' as Wildwood (much like a lightskinned African American during the '60's and even back to the time of the Civil War), they would be treated better. Given more opportunities. Perhaps the 'truth of their birth' being ignored (until such time as it was more beneficial/profitable to bring it up and 'knock them down a notch'). Which, IMHO, could give creedence to Eva's character's experiences.

3)In Ul'Dah, I sense a more cosmopolitan and globally accepting attitude. No one seemed to care one way or the other what 'race' you were... And oppression here would likely be met negatively. Or at the very most, be subtle- perhaps in the form of pricing of goods.
Cannot speak for Limsa...

4)Now... if the pot was continued to be stirred by the DW's (WW are traitors, betrayed our Elezen cultures, weakened themselves to cater to the Hyur, etc) and the WW (DW are arrogant, cowardly, thieves, backstabbers, etc), thenÂ we could see hostilities now. But I seriously doubt outright prejudice would be tolerated... well, not in Ul'dah anyway. (I really can NOT speak to Gridania as I did not spend ANY time there in Beta past L2...) I suppose the only lingering global 'prejudice' might merely be based on stereotype: all DW are thieves and backstabbers.

First off, awesome post

1) It is nice to see thoughts on this from someone who has had the chance to see the USA from multiple areas and can really speak to a better view of how things are. also "Dividing folks based on skin color is asinine." seconded and great word choice.

anyways back to dealing directly with the game...

2)I rolled out a WW in phase three and got exactly the same treatment as the Miqo'te I rolled in phase 2, so I will confirm that it doesn't matter what you are, if you are not from Gridania everyone is hated.

3) also cannot speak to Limsa (saved that story line for Rogier to explore and be fresh) But I imagine that Ul'Dah could care less what you are as long as your rich. as far as oppression goes, I think as long as someone has less money than you people might look the other way and just call it putting the person in their place.

4) It would be interesting to see if there are factions that are stirring things up again, or if there are groups working to remove any negative rifts. definitely an aspect to play with for some great RP.

I am so happy to see so much discussion here. keep up the good posts everyone.

Teardrop · **07-21-2013, 05:38 AM**

You know, I made a conscientious effort to keep my example and argument within the game's realm and away from the obvious (yet appropriate) real life parallels, because I just didn't want to open that can of worms...others can venture forth where I had chosen not to tread, thoughÂ Tongue

But again, I will summarize, at least in game based on the lore, what I feel is the current situation. Â There have been a couple remarks to the fact that the level of conflict probably isn't currently all that great, or the majority of Elezen (either clan) don't harbor such ill will in the majority, be it as a result of living with others, or a simple mellowing over time. I simply don't think the comments in the lore bear that concept out. Â There was conflict between Elezen and Hyur in the past, and the lore actually mentions the fact that their relations have improved to the point where they can work and live in peace (this is where things probably more along the lines of Kyatai's comment regarding "Â talking segregation and hostilities...taking place hundreds of years ago- not mere 40'.)Â ...but that is not the case with the Wildwood and Duskwights. Â The feelings are presented as being current in the lore, not past tense (the situations that caused the strain may be past-tense, but the resulting tension isn't Wink

). Â There's no reason to think the resentments might have diminished, because, unlike Hyur/Elezen, its not even implied. Â Again, though, its animosity, not open clan warfare. Â The two clans are obviously able to interact...its just a matter of how they feel about the interactions that's the issue.

Supporting Kyatai's and LeCard's comments, its already in my character concept that Isobeau spends more time in, and feels more comfortable with her dealings in Ul'dah than elsewhere. Â The mining and goldsmith guilds are there, and it seems that gil glosses over many issuesÂ Cool

. Â I'm not sure "oppression" would be ruthlessly stamped out in Ul'dah, because don't they have their own intimidating syndicates that like to keep everyone in line using fear and whatnotÂ Laugh

Â ? Â What I think would happen is more of a blind-eye towards anything unless it interrupts the smooth transfer of gil from customer to guild coffersÂ Tongue

. Â Is a vendor on merchant row going to jump out of a stall and yell "Hey, stop calling that Duskwight a 'grey', that's mean...we don't tolerate that here!"? Â Well, I'd think it would go more along the lines of "Hey, can you wait a minute before trying to pick that fight? Â We're doing business here..."Â Wink

.

Being a military veteran of 8 years myself, and spending literally more time sleeping in a hotel in a year than my own home working around the US in my current job, I'll break out my "seen it all" chops and compare them with anyone Smile

. Â But I think that's one of the big problems about why this particular issue, regarding the game-lore inclusion of racial animosity, is so difficult for role-players to comfortably implement into their game-play. Â Real-world sensibilities seem to not be able to be left at the door, so we get situations in the community culture where its often frowned upon when someone wants to follow the obvious intention of the designers of the lore, and convolutions are made to explain away the situation...the actual role play experience of some shows that this is the case, and in actuality, most often the norm (as Twinflame pointed out in his example from RIFT). We have nothing to base the thought that citizens of Eorzea would speak out immediately as champions of diversity and not suffer or tolerate racial tension in the least...it doesn't play out in NPC conversation, and it certainly doesn't play out in the lore; the opposite is written in the lore itself. Â Real world sensibilities of the planet Earth might demand such response, but we can't find good example of that to be the case in Hydaelyn.

Really though, its simply a matter of, like anything presented for the player to deal with as background and lore, its merely a matter of personal choice on how one chooses to deal with it. Â You either take it at face value, ignore it, or interpret it in various ways to fit within your concept and play style.Â Â Here, I'll even put this in blue for emphasis, so if nothing else is taken away, the above can beÂ Rolleyes

I'm heartened by the fact that many in this thread are welcoming the exploration of this particular aspect of the Duskwight's existence Big Grin

. Â Anyone who would read this thread would know our intention is not to become a disruptive group, but rather to stay authentic to the current situation of most Elezen as presented in the lore, and to be open to using this as a role play opportunity with not just other Duskwight and Wildwood, but with other races. " You Mi'qote seem to get along well together, and you don't understand why we don't? Â Let me tell you the story of my peopleÂ Cool

"

Yssen · **07-21-2013, 07:07 AM**

Hokay. Seems I am a bit late to the party. I blame being busy and sick. Apologies. Going to touch on a few points on Duskwight stuff from my perspective a bit later. I will probably repeating what some people have already said, but I am playing a bit of catch up. Please bear with me just a little.Â

First thing is first, background. While I would love to spell out all of the details of Yssen's background for you all, it contains secrets. So. I will be redacting some bits and pieces and leaving only the Duskwight specific bits for you all to chew on. Yssen and his sister Ysa are twins. Both grew up in the underground with other Duskwights, and both were orphaned at around the age of four. They lived among Duskwights, looking out for each other as pretty much homeless orphans until...

*REDACTED*

Yssen came up to the surface around the age of nineteen, and became active as a thief and bandit in Ul'dah. He even ran around with some of the Duskwight bandit and mercenary groups on the surface for quite some time. This lasts until about a year before the Calamity when Yssen starts being involved with Shimmersong for... reasons.Â

Yssen is proud of his Duskwight heritage, and wears the popular stigma of the tribe like a badge of honor. He is not fond Wildwoods, particularly when they point out his being a Duskwight. Yssen plays by his own rules, and abides only by his own sense of morality. He makes his living on his own terms, and in general he refuses to conform to "surface society." One could consider him to be a living embodiment of the "Duskwights are all thieves and con-men" stereotype, and that is perfectly OK with him. Who the hell cares what outsiders think of him anyways. ;p

That is all for the back ground bits. Duskwight thoughts to come later.

Yssen · **07-21-2013, 10:06 AM**

Yeah... I know. This is probably one post after another, but I felt it best to split the answer to the "what is your background" question from my general thoughts on what it is to be a Duskwight. So. Here we go. Apologies if I bring up some already made points.Â

1. Duskwights are an outsider culture. It seems pretty darn clear that the Duskwights have a separate culture that does not fold into the norm with the rest of "society as a whole." They are reclusive and elusive to outsiders, and there are plenty of examples that a large contingent of them refuse to live within the bounds of regular society. They have a tendency to make their livings as bandit, thieves, and mercenaries. This point is backed up by both NPC dialogue and how Duskwight NPCs are presented to us in the game. Duskwight Mercenary, Bandit, etc are all labels placed on a lot of Duskwights one encounters in the world. NPC dialogue often points to the fact that most Duskwights are known for engaging in such work on the surface. One is free to draw one's own conclusions, but this stands as a pretty big example that most Duskwights are exactly what most people thing they are. I tend to think that this points to the tribe having a quite different set of ethics and morals than the rest of society, from a cultural stand point. There are a lot of parallels to real life outsider cultures that can be drawn from the various dialogue bits to be found in the game on them. Romani, Travelers, Native Americans, and many other cultures that hold onto their identity while co-existing with the mainstream culture come to mind. In short, Duskwights have their own culture, and it would seem that most of them refuse to assimilate to mainstream society.

2. Duskwights face a LOT of prejudice. The stigma placed on Duskwights is not just limited to the Wildwoods. They are referred to as dirty, thieving, untrustworthy, and worse by many NPCs elezen and non-elezen alike. This sentiment seems to be highest in Gridania, but is by no means limited to that region. They are referred to as murderous bandits in Ul'dah and filthy pirates in Limsa. There are fewer NPCs that bring this up in quests and other such in the other non-Gridania areas, but it is still a sentiment that has spread all over Eorzea proper.Â

3. The Duskwights have left various underground ruins/cities laying around. There is a major one being studied in Gridania that was uncovered by the Calamity. There were hints in 1.0 that places like Toto Rak, and the Tam Tara Deepcroft, and the Mun-tuy Cellars were at one time Duskwight structures that were abandoned and re-purposed. These specific places in Gridania were possibly abandoned during the conflict that arose surrounding the founding of Gridania, one of the sources of bad blood between the two elezen tribes. Hits of other settlements and underground places in Coerthas can also be inferred from 1.0 dialogue. Particularly the Dragoon quest. There is really no other mention of possible Duskwight ruins or settlements in any of the other regions. Hopefully more will unfold about these various locations and possible others.

4. Large amounts of Duskwights being on the surface seems to be a recent development. Now, by recent developement, I mean in like the past fifty or sixty years or so. This is also not to say that there were never any Duskwight on the surface before then. Lore seems to point to a bit of a large influx during the above time period. I think this leads a bit into why they face so much prejudice. They are a reclusive and insular people that are just now being more and more exposed to mainstream society. People fear what they don't understand and all that jazz.

These are the things I can think of at the moment, but it all leads to some pretty interesting places I think. A couple closing notes. I LOVE the idea of a Duskwight only LS. I think it would add some very very interesting RP. I also think that there is interesting RP to be had between those Duskwight that cling to their cultural identity, and those that seek to be more assimilated. Lets keep the ideas and the discussion going. I like what I am seeing so far.

Eva · **07-21-2013, 05:30 PM**

More really good points, and there's not much more I can add here. Â I'm still in love with the idea of a Duskwight LS, even though Eva might never wholly feel a sense of belonging to such a group.

I wanted to talk a little more about backgrounds and heritage, since I've found I've had to take a lot of artistic license with this for Eva's own backstory. Â I confess I've intentionally kept her at a distance from her ancestral homeland and the people there, since it's entirely unofficial and only my own interpretation of one possible way a duskwight community might exist. Â This has been left to speculation, so I did just that. Â I've known other RPers who have taken similar liberties with regard to their own duskwight backstories, just as I would imagine some miqo'te, hyur, and others have had to draw certain conclusions for themselves. Â Much of this also plays off what another RPer I interacted with at the time had done with his own upbringing - specifically Oskar Helvig, for those who may have known him. Â I don't want to discuss too extensively what he had done, but it's impossible to talk about Eva's original homeland without giving some nod to him, since he effectively gave me a launchpad from which to create something similar, but also a little different. Â To keep things as brief as possible since Oskar's player may come here and explain things more fully than I could possibly hope to do, Oskar came from a cavernous place "somewhere north" where there were multiple clans who feuded with one another for survival and his people were very cognizent of that, celebrated a sort of ancestor worship, sung hymns, had certain women who were regarded like shamans sort of, and were generally very warlike - as they had to be.

It makes sense that the duskwight may have split apart into different factions and spread across Eorzea, just as all the other races are generally distributed across the world. Â I know another RPer whose duskwight people lived in caves in Thanalan. Â I see nothing wrong with this, though I can see where some might argue that most duskwight settlements be located in woodland areas - I think someone earlier suggested the Black Shroud and Coerthas only. Â I don't know that I see a Thanalan settlement as ignoring the lore so much as having a slightly different interpretation of it.

Eva's clan was sort of a moot point early on since I had little intention of actually RPing her backstory to that depth, but it became an issue in RP and it became clear that I had to come up with something. Â So what follows is a kind of an analysis of Eva's culture, which aims to explain some of the more 'odd' traditions which she upholds. Â She had to go back to that place when her father died in order to enscribe his name upon a cavern wall. Â That will make more sense later in this post I suppose.

The clan to which Eva's family belongs (or 'belonged' depending on your interpretation, though they themselves were very welcoming of her in the few occasions where she returned) are situated very deep beneath the mountains of Coerthas. Â Getting there has been described as a difficult descent that takes several hours. Â Getting back up is even more taxing. Â I try to keep things as vague, but I also try to keep them extremely displaced from everything else. Â There are few other clans that deep down, and runoff from one of the rivers of Coerthas provides a sort of underground waterfall (dubbed by those people as Flowstone Falls) which brings with it food in the form of fish, and also a variety of edible mushrooms that grow nearby. Â Life is relatively pastoral, peaceful, and probably relatively boring by most peoples' standards. Â The people have established a harmony with the caves. Â There are occasional skirmishes, and they have warrior-protectors, but it is not the central way of their life.

Written word in this particular offshoot of duskwight culture has been regarded as something sacred. Â Literacy is important and children of this clan are taught it at an early age. Â One usually needs to be able to see in order to write, or read, and light is another important element as a result of the first. Â Candles are sacred items and those who are able to procure beeswax to make them are well-regarded, though this generally requires travel closer to the surface in order to facilitate. Â There have been a few interesting traditions as a result of this. Â First, the family has kept a collective journal that goes back generations. Â Eva's great-grandfather did not start it, however they are the oldest journals she owns. Â His earliest tome reveals that the earlier books were lost in a fire, and he endeavors in the first few volumes to recap what he remembers of the earlier family history - which is probably muddled a bit from the actual truth of much older events as a result. Â Eva keeps a few dozen volumes of these journals in a safe place though, and continues recording her own experiences and adventures in journals of her own.

As mentioned before, candles are an important symbol in her culture. Â While young men when they came of age would choose a single mate for life, it was the women who would "offer a candle" as a showing that she was interested in being chosen for a mate. Â One might argue that the women held a lot of influence here, as a result, since a man could not take a mate who had not first offered him a candle. Â This has been described as a very old tradition, and even more recently in the clan-lands men have given candles to young women as a similar gesture. Â There has been at least one time in RP where someone offered Eva a candle with no understanding whatsoever of this practice and she blushed and felt awkward over the whole thing, even though she realized he had no idea what the meaning was.

There is also in her clan-lands a wall made of what is called "The Living Stone" (credit again goes to Oskar for originally coming up with this concept and allowing me to play around with it). Â Apart from being a sort of special sort of rock from which jewelry may be fashioned and such, the only significance as I've RPed it is that there is a sort of abstract tie-in with thaumaturgy in general, and under certain [unknown] conditions, blood causes the stone to glow faintly. Â "Enscribing" is a ritual Eva's ancestors have been practicing for generations where they bleed themselves, then use that blood to write the name of a fallen family member upon this wall. Â Imagine a large chamber deep underground with names of hundreds or thousands of duskwights written upon it in blood that sometimes glows. Â I don't know - I just thought it was pretty cool. Â There is no lore around to completely substantiate it, but it's also not entirely impossible. Â It's just one of those licenses we've taken.

Now that I've shared all of this, most of it is almost a moot point as the ancestral clan-lands were completely destroyed by seismic activity when Dalamud came about. Â Eva wasn't down there at the time, but two people were above the surface, and only one actually survived. Â So I guess this pushes Eva a bit farther away from her heritage in a sense, but it was a plot twist we felt was necessary and we really also wanted to drive home the destruction caused by Dalamud/Bahamut. Â "Everything trickles down," was a common expression of those people. Â Indeed it did.

I'm curious now if anyone else has taken liberties with the lore and such things in similar ways. Â I know Isobeau's story mentions "Nymeia's apron-strings" as something which would make a great deal of sense in that sort of a culture. Â And I think Kari mentioned how her clan has a sort of special regard for its women. Â Are there any other rituals, customs, traditions, or anything else that you've concocted for your duskwight character along the way?

Kyatai · **07-21-2013, 06:03 PM**

Very interesting background culture you've established, Eva- a spin off of Oskar's ideas or not. I love it Big Grin

As far as my ideas, cultures and so on for ChianÃ©- I'll have to get back to you on that. Am presently focused on my Miqo (how she cut ahead of my DW, I dunno. I attribute it to, once again, the DW has been kicked aside... *sighs* I suspect ChianÃ© will make her displeasure known soon... *coughs*)
I've very excited about this discussion and seeing how others are envisioning playing their characters (and willingness to play them as true to lore/form as possible).
Conflict is good in story development- I'm glad we're all ok with not wanting to sit about singing Kumbayah and ignoring strife that is lore-supported.

Keep it coming Smile

Teardrop · **07-22-2013, 12:17 PM**

There's a couple parts in the lore where it basically says the Duskwight retreated from the surface in order to live a peaceful life away from conflict and among themselves. Why would they retreat from surface wars only to create eternal clan conflicts and inner warfare within their own kind? Maybe a family or two with disagreements between themselves, but honestly, it sure looks like everything points to the opposite. In fact, I'd say the the only real thing Duskwights have going for them is internal bonds and loyalty. If everyone else thinks you're scum and wretched, who else are you going to turn to except your own kind?

Quote:"Centuries ago, a number of Elezen sought out a life of peace and seclusion in the depths of Eorzea's caves and caverns."

Quote:"while the Duskwight Elezen withdrew to caves and sub-terrain, opting instead to avoid all contact with any but their own."

Again, you retreat from the surface to find peace among yourselves, then you create bitter struggle and warfare with yourselves. Not sure that situation is the plight of the Duskwights on a larger scale, based on the above comments. Rather, I think they know their kind is all they can depend on. They will feed on the other races, hence their reputation as thieves an pillagers, but I don't see anything to support that large-scale violence or animosity occurs within the Duskwights against others of their like.

I really enjoy reading the cultural rituals and symbolism you've used in your background, Eva. I delved quite a bit into that sort of development as an Elin in Tera, to take them away from the simple cutsie-character everyone took them as Dodgy

. Those kinds of things really breath life into a people, and as I further explore what it is to be a Duskwight, I'll definitely delve into that further Rolleyes

. My Nymeia's Apron-String" was a lifeline the Clan Miners used to trace the route to the furthest extension of their dig. It was named as such because it was used to not only mark the direct path out of the depths, but would also help locate their remains should a collapse occur, so, like fate, it was going to bring them out of the tunnels alive or dead...it mattered not which, for its purpose Wink

.

Eva · **07-22-2013, 02:43 PM**

(07-22-2013, 12:17 PM)Teardrop Wrote: There's a couple parts in the lore where it basically says the Duskwight retreated from the surface in order to live a peaceful life away from conflict and among themselves. Â Why would they retreat from surface wars only to create eternal clan conflicts and inner warfare within their own kind? Â Maybe a family or two with disagreements between themselves, but honestly, it sure looks like everything points to the opposite. Â In fact, I'd say the the only real thing Duskwights have going for them is internal bonds and loyalty. Â If everyone else thinks you're scum and wretched, who else are you going to turn to except your own kind?

On earlier points pertaining to Oskar's duskwight backstory and warlike clan, I should perhaps be clearer. Â I don't want to speak to what exactly he was doing since he could probably better explain it. Â I also don't know if his particular ancestors turned against each other. Â It's possible that their lands were shallower caves closer to the surface and those that they fought with were of the other races. Â I honestly don't know. Â I just know they were described as much more Spartan in nature and couldn't see well enough to read and write so passed their history down by way of hymns and such. Â Oskar used to regard other duskwights as 'Brother' and 'Sister' even when they belonged to different clans, so this leads me to believe his particular group wasn't so isolated that they held so little regard for duskwights who were outsiders to that group. Â I recently spoke with him and made him aware of the existence of this discussion so perhaps he may post in reply for himself to elaborate further for us, however I'm not sure he has any plans of playing FFXIV any longer so I won't make that assumption and hope that what I have said about it so far is accurate.

For myself I agree with what you've said and felt it made a lot more sense to have Eva's ancestors segment themselves but remain peaceful towards each other. Â Eva only went back to visit her ancestral homeland on three separate occasions (all within the last six months or so of 1.0), and on the second occasion she brought with her another duskwight who was welcomed into their lands as one of their own.

I think it makes a lot of sense that they sort of cling to one another when they happen to find each other. Â This has actually happened in RP that I have been involved with. Â To Eva it might be some comfort to find those who are familiar with rituals and traditions with which she was brought up, but which seem odd or foreign to most of the non-duskwights with whom she associates. Â To someone less-integrated or not as assimilated into surface culture (i.e. the melting pot), it would certainly make sense to seek out another of their kind. Â While it may go against more modern OOC mainstream beliefs that people should be diverse and all-encompassing, in-game adherence to the lore suggests that it would make a lot of sense for there to be this almost sort of magnetism between duskwights when surrounded by outsiders.

Have I mentioned enough yet that I'm really looking forward to this Duskwight LS that Kari's working on?? Â ^_^

Asyria · **07-22-2013, 03:10 PM**

Okay I'm late in the thread, I'll try to poke in. ^^;

Racism and prejudice in games vs in real life.

The post about character perceptions being altered by player perceptions and cultures made me smile a bit. I was one of those players in Rift who looked down upon those wanting to kill the other faction on sight... in civilian areas. Sure on the battlefield, it was kill or be killed and there was much at stake, but Defiants came to a Guardian RP hub (partly bcause Defiants had little in terms of RP hubs) to RP peacefully so my character considered them civilians from an enemy nation and treated them as such. As long as weapons were kept sheathed, she was polite. One time some Defiants came to town flagged and looking for a fight.. my character gleefully jumped in!

So, while today's society may influence our perceptions, I firmly believe our characters have a right, as unique individuals, to see things a bit differently. Or even a lot differently. Our characters are not the majority and don't have to be representative of the masses.

As easy as it is to forget that the world we RP in is different than the world we live in, I think it's even easier to forget that even if there's more players than NPC's in the FF XIV game, the world of FF XIV has a lot more people living in it than the game shows us (and probably a lot more towns and much bigger ones too). It's all a matter of perspective.

Now, that Duskwight LS.... I'm almost afraid to ask.. but what server is it gonna be on?

As far as my own Duskwight goes, I'm not one to do a ton of research on lore, if it's not readily available. I took what little I had and went with it. Which is, Duskwights separated from the other ones, went underground, and came back out some time ago. So kinda like Drow but without the evil-ness, black skin, spider-loving and dual-wielding gary stu. Okay!

So I kept it simple, since what I had to work with was simple, and decided her mother was a weaver and her father a thaumaturge, and didn't think further into the past.

Don't get me wrong, I think this thread and all the digging that's been done is awesome!
But the fact you guys had to do it is just bad. This kinda lore should be readily available straight from the developers, if you ask me. ^^;

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A Duskwight Discussion

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