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DimmerMeerkat · **07-21-2013, 01:10 AM**

Manari Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 05:50 PM)DimmerMeerkat Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 05:28 PM)Faiz Wrote: I feel as though I learned a fair bit having read this thread and most of its posts. Â My character however wouldn't be abiding by any of this due to how and who he was raised by. Â I'm that small percentage that maaay be looked down upon for having a male Miqo'te who knows nothing about the clans, his culture, etc. Â ^^;
I think that actually puts you in the majority. I've seen way more city-dwelling Miqo'te males than traditional tribal males, both among Seekers and Keepers.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of this is happening in some sort of off-screen or behind the curtain manner. Â For example, if you go outside Ul'dah, there's a single farm, whereas outside Limsa, there's quite a few farms and orchards. Â Is one farm supporting the entire populace of Ul'dah? Â Probably not. Â The vast majority of populations for all these races are never seen, because a truly realistic world would be too expansive to be captured in the game. Â The major cities, however, need that sort of description.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about NPCs nor the environment. I'm talking about PCs. I think a vast majority of roleplayers who play male Miqo'te do not roleplay tribal or traditional characters. Ryu' said that he feels hes in the "small percentage" of characters who don't understand or identify with traditional Miqo'te cultures. I'm arguing that characters like that are not a "small percentage," but instead a vast majority. Those who play traditional male Miqo'te characters, I feel, are in the minority. Especially Seeker males.

Myxie Tryxle · **07-21-2013, 01:28 AM**

(07-21-2013, 01:10 AM)DimmerMeerkat Wrote:
Manari Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 05:50 PM)DimmerMeerkat Wrote:
(07-20-2013, 05:28 PM)Faiz Wrote: I feel as though I learned a fair bit having read this thread and most of its posts. Â My character however wouldn't be abiding by any of this due to how and who he was raised by. Â I'm that small percentage that maaay be looked down upon for having a male Miqo'te who knows nothing about the clans, his culture, etc. Â ^^;
I think that actually puts you in the majority. I've seen way more city-dwelling Miqo'te males than traditional tribal males, both among Seekers and Keepers.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of this is happening in some sort of off-screen or behind the curtain manner. Â For example, if you go outside Ul'dah, there's a single farm, whereas outside Limsa, there's quite a few farms and orchards. Â Is one farm supporting the entire populace of Ul'dah? Â Probably not. Â The vast majority of populations for all these races are never seen, because a truly realistic world would be too expansive to be captured in the game. Â The major cities, however, need that sort of description.
You misunderstand. I'm not talking about NPCs nor the environment. I'm talking about PCs. I think a vast majority of roleplayers who play male Miqo'te do not roleplay tribal or traditional characters. Ryu' said that he feels hes in the "small percentage" of characters who don't understand or identify with traditional Miqo'te cultures. I'm arguing that characters like that are not a "small percentage," but instead a vast majority. Those who play traditional male Miqo'te characters, I feel, are in the minority. Especially Seeker males.

Sorry, it makes better sense now that I know you meant players. It's a shame they waited until 2.0 to add in male Miqo'te and female Roegadyn. We could have avoided the need for discussions like this. Hopefully we'll see a lot of Miqo'te lore fairly quickly.

growly beast · **07-21-2013, 06:17 PM**

Damn, girl.

I think this post is pretty amazing - you managed to write down all of my thoughts on the subject of miqo'te habits- in a better way than I could have. I really appreciate that you took the time to flesh this out!Â Having this info written down means I can expand his culture and such a little bit more, which I am excited to do.

My character pretty much subscribed to all of this already, and I used these ideas to flesh out his backstory, inferring from what little clues we have from official sources.

I'm a little disappointed with some of the reactions, though, and the fact that some players seem to be less willing to bend their human-centered thinking and get a little more creative with the miqo'te; they have have so much potential to be really interesting, much more beyond generic catgirls and boys. But I love coming up with an expanding on fantastical races myself, and exploring ideas that push conventional ideas of society, culture, sexuality and gender roles.

To me, there's got to be something more to them than just humans with ears and tails tacked on. If that were the case, I'd see little point in it.

(07-20-2013, 09:05 PM)Desphiria Wrote: I have one simple question, why are you putting logic into a video game? That's all I gotta say. It's a game, have fun. We don't need to put logic into everything. It's a fantasy game, why is everyone worrying about this?

If you don't like what's going on in the lore then change it and make up your own rules or play a different race.

Lots of people have fun trying to make sense of what they're given. Just because you don't have fun in X way doesn't mean other's won't. I doubt this post was written out of anger or disappointment - it was probably because it's fun stuff to think about for the OP. As it is for me, and I'm sure others.

Also, they did nothing to break the lore. They expanded on what's given to us at this point, and making informed speculations and expanding on that.

(07-20-2013, 08:12 PM)AeonicVortex Wrote: I wonder where love fits into all of this, and how its view.Â It seems like in Miqo'te culture, love takes a way side.Â As a Seeker, you mate with Nunh's, whether you love them or not.

"Love" as we humans see it doesn't necessarily have to be present in their society at all, especially if other parts of their culture are completely different from ours. There isn't much "love" and romance among lion prides or solitary cats like leopards - perhaps it's the same here. Maybe it's just not a thing they are programmed to do because they don't need to.

Nako-Chan · **07-21-2013, 07:15 PM**

Don't have a long post to go on about, all I really have to say is amazing Opening Post, regardless of what some voices have said. Yes, miqo'te are rational animals, just like humans and culture blah blah, but this is no less interesting to think about. Or at the very least, consider.

+1 OP

This is something I'll be meditating for hours on when considering a fleshed out back-story.

Swift · **07-21-2013, 07:52 PM**

Sheesh, it seems that the longer this topic goes on, the more difficult it's becoming to make up my mind as to what to do with my character's particular tribe.

There's quite a few questions that I'm trying to answer as I go along:

1. How, exactly, are challenges for the title of Nunh handled?

2. How much influence to women have over who becomes a challenger?

3. Are the challenges a straight-up fight? Or are they most like contests, such as "who can hunt the most game in a single week?"

4. Is the loser killed? If not, is there a punishment associated with failure? (Shunning? Exile? Castration? Etc.?)

5. If there is a particularly fatal or gruesome punishment, how does this affect the morale of the rest of the tribe? If there isn't, what factor prevents the challenges from occurring very commonly?

6. How do tribal Miqo'te, in general, view other races and cultures? Do they prefer to be traditional or open to outside influences/technology?

7. How are the relationships within the tribe defined? Do they consider the entire tribe to be their "family?" Is it extended only to those who were sired under the same Nunh? Is it only their immediate family?

8. Does romance play a role anywhere? If so, how common is it? How many partners are culturally acceptable? Does romance include a sexual element with the relationship? Is this okay with the Nunhs, or does it have to be in secret?

I'll probably bump into many other questions as I go, as well. It's no wonder why most people would opt to just be a "city-cat"--these are hard to answer! If the culture leans more towards the more primal and "barbaric" side of things, it puts a strain on the definition of "community" among the tribe (i.e. if someone eats all of your children, even if this is the accepted norm, your morale and sense of community would surely plummet). But at the same time, if their culture is too gentle (Tias and Nunhs fight over a game of checkers), it might seem too sun-shiny, happy, and generic. I'm trying to strike an "exotic middle-ground" among them all, to give them a unique, cultural silhouette while ensuring that it doesn't go too overboard simply for the sake of that. Different--but not to the point that the other races would see them as vile (which doesn't seem to be the case as far as NPCs are concerned).

NKato · **07-21-2013, 07:59 PM**

Argue about how a Miqo'te spreads her legs to a mate all you want, you guys are seriously reading too much into it.

Best get your minds out of the gutter, lest this game's RP community turn into another ERP Central, like TERA.

That said, Keeper clan is best clan. :V

FreelanceWizard · **07-21-2013, 08:08 PM**

(07-21-2013, 07:52 PM)Swift Wrote: Sheesh, it seems that the longer this topic goes on, the more difficult it's becoming to make up my mind as to what to do with my character's particular tribe.

There's quite a few questions that I'm trying to answer as I go along:
-snip-

I was going to put "we don't know" to all of these, but, well, I'm sure you already know that. Smile

Narratively, I think you can get a lot of mileage by having your character be from a branch of a tribe and answering these questions as they'd work for your character's story. If you want a light backstory for a tribal Seeker, have your character's tribal branch be friendly and happy with challenges being battles of wits and the women having a lot of social influence. If you want a brutally dark one, have the challenges be common and gruesome with the women little more than trophies for the nunh with no say in what happens. Since there are lots of branches (the devs say tribal branching via expansion of territory is "quite common") and little lore to specify how things must be, there's lots of room for you to do what makes best sense for your character's story.

growly beast · **07-21-2013, 08:17 PM**

(07-21-2013, 07:52 PM)Swift Wrote: Sheesh...

I'll tell you how it works in R'aqsha's tribe, and maybe that will help you.

They are Seekers of the Sun, of the Raptor tribe. They live mostly in the Sagolii Desert but have branched out to earn money in Ul'dah, mostly as dancers/performers. They are prestigious spear hunters, so most of them have the dragoon/lancer class.

1. How, exactly, are challenges for the title of Nunh handled?

Usually with a fight of some sort, sometimes to the death but not always. The loser is kicked out of the tribe if they are still alive, left to die in the desert or go off to the city - whatever.

2. Â How much influence to women have over who becomes a challenger?

Since only a woman can decide if she enjoys mating with a particular male or not, in this tribe they have a lot of say - their opinion is very important. They can decide if they think a nunh is mentally unfit, or his personality is shit, if he's too ugly for their tastes, or if he's cheated in his fight to earn the title, etc. Each woman's willingness to mate with a particular nunh is considered a 'vote' - if the majority are fine with him, he stays. If it drops down to say, 60%, he's getting in some trouble. Anything less than 50% and they try to find another guy. Haven't thought beyond this, though.

3. Are the challenges a straight-up fight? Or are they most like contests, such as "who can hunt the most game in a single week?"

It depends on what the two fighting males want to do. Usually they will have a particular challenge they want to show off with, like hunting the biggest game.

In-game, there's a Basilisk tribeÂ Drake tribe (sorry, got it wrong at first)Â of miqo'te living in an oasis of the Sagolii desert that pride how well the females can hunt, and seem to make a contest of it. So, I'm thinking depending on the particular tribe, it could be a 1 on 1 fight, or some feat of strength, or a hunting quota. It may change from issue to issue.

4. Is the loser killed? If not, is there a punishment associated with failure? (Shunning? Exile? Castration? Etc.?)

It's possible they can be killed, but not necessary. For the Raptor tribe, losing and being cast out into the desert is pretty much a death sentence anyway unless they decide to go live in Ul'dah, where they are forced to cut ties with the Raptor tribe completely.

5. If there is a particularly fatal or gruesome punishment, how does this affect the morale of the rest of the tribe? If there isn't, what factor prevents the challenges from occurring very commonly?

Women only want to breed with the strongest, most appealing male. Weeding out the weak is usually no issue to them. Living in the desert is extremely hard and if you can't keep up you are left behind.

8. Does romance play a role anywhere? If so, how common is it? How many partners are culturally acceptable? Does romance include a sexual element with the relationship? Is this okay with the Nunhs, or does it have to be in secret?

Not in the traditional sense of a single couple. Women and nunh are encouraged to form strong bonds with each other, and favorites are looked down upon. The nunh is expected to treat each woman with equal respect and "love.". Ideally, it would be a huge "big love" going on between them all, where nobody is above the other. Women may also seek pleasure from other women, or have fun in groups, especially with their nunh - to promote this bond. Recreational sex is common, thus.

The only thing that isn't allowed is messing with tia. Tia have no sexual rights in their clan, unless it's with another male - which isn't really often because there are so few. They are considered 'eunuchs' until proving they are good enough to mate with the girls and produce good offspring.

---

And there you have it. Maybe it helps you answer some stuff. I personally have a lot of fun thinking about this and creating the NPCs that form R'aqsha's tribe. I'm even tempted to make a Keeper character to explore their culture as well. It's just really fun for me.

Naunet · **07-21-2013, 08:45 PM**

(07-21-2013, 07:59 PM)NKato Wrote: Argue about how a Miqo'te spreads her legs to a mate all you want, you guys are seriously reading too much into it.

Best get your minds out of the gutter, lest this game's RP community turn into another ERP Central, like TERA.

That said, Keeper clan is best clan. :V

Bah, c'mon, NK. This is a lot different than TERA's erp-fest. :p

Also, hello there.

Swift · **07-21-2013, 08:48 PM**

(07-21-2013, 08:08 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I was going to put "we don't know" to all of these, but, well, I'm sure you already know that.

Narratively, I think you can get a lot of mileage by having your character be from a branch of a tribe and answering these questions as they'd work for your character's story. If you want a light backstory for a tribal Seeker, have your character's tribal branch be friendly and happy with challenges being battles of wits and the women having a lot of social influence. If you want a brutally dark one, have the challenges be common and gruesome with the women little more than trophies for the nunh with no say in what happens. Since there are lots of branches (the devs say tribal branching via expansion of territory is "quite common") and little lore to specify how things must be, there's lots of room for you to do what makes best sense for your character's story.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do, actually ^^

It's just that I feel as though I'm playing with weights and scales.
I want to add some darker, more questionable influences into the mix so that I have a place to spawn some character flaws from, and a way to add some complexity and depth whenever my character interacts with other PCs--but at the same time, I don't want to overdo it to the point in which I end up with a character that could only be realistically represented as a depressed recluse or a savage.

This is probably because I've recently been playing two very dark characters in my D&D campaign, so I kinda want to step back out into the light for some fresh air, lol.

I also know there's a lot of depth that can come from the lighter-side of these details as well, and I've been planning on several of those already. But I like inter-cultural contrasts, conflicts, and interaction a lot, so, again, I'm trying to find my middle-ground xP

Edit!-
Also, thanks, Growly. I'm planning on using the 'M' (Marmot) tribe and setting them in more temperate climates, but I believe I can use the information you provided as a sort of reference point for my own. ^^

growly beast · **07-21-2013, 09:08 PM**

(07-21-2013, 07:59 PM)NKato Wrote: Argue about how a Miqo'te spreads her legs to a mate all you want, you guys are seriously reading too much into it.

Best get your minds out of the gutter, lest this game's RP community turn into another ERP Central, like TERA.

That said, Keeper clan is best clan. :V

Pretty sure "reading too much into it" is the basis of what roleplayers do. You are on a website devoted to writing on and on about the lives of your video game character. What exactly makes the way you do it so much better?

And there's nothing "in the gutter" about discussing culture and nature. And if it was - so what? Again, what makes your kind of RP any better than somebody who enjoys ERP?

And no problem, Swift!

Zyrusticae · **07-21-2013, 09:28 PM**

(07-21-2013, 12:55 AM)Kyatai Wrote: One simply MUST integrate the environmental & cultural aspects, traditions, religion, morals and mores and so on into the equation. For it is THAT that shapes 'who' and 'what' we are....
At least in my opinion. But this is the simple 'nature vs nurture' argument that still persists today. Even among anthropologists. (esp between evolutionary and cultural anthropologists!) But I digress.

You've opened this can of worms, so you're going to have to deal with it. Smile

It's actually a combination of both. How you react to and process certain situations is largely determined by a combination of past experiences and your own genetic predispositions that move you towards certain conclusions. For example: some people who suffer traumatic childhood experiences become killers as adults; other people, for whatever reason, do not. You simply cannot divorce nature from nurture as that is oversimplifying the facts of the matter.

Experience, or nurture, whichever, is most likely the more important of the two, I will note. People who have a predisposition towards becoming murderers and/or serial killers are actually perfectly capable of living a healthy and productive life, provided that the environment they were born and raised in wasn't a destructive one (and this is one reason I am not a proponent of the current punishment-justice system, but I digress). However, that predisposition is always there, and it still manifests itself in some pretty interesting ways - for example, the aforementioned potential killers will display a noticeable lack of empathy towards other human beings, even when they are behaving quite amiably.

This means that, if, for example, your character was born in an environment that was harsh, unforgiving, and heavy with violence, they are not necessarily guaranteed to reciprocate with more violence. They might simply withdraw. They might give up. They might defend themselves, but only against aggressors. Or, indeed, they may become terrifying, remorseless killers. That all depends on many things. It's never a clear-cut "this happened, therefore X character is going to become this". You can draw up a chain of events, but once you change the foundation, that chain is unlikely to apply to another.

Annnd that's that. I hope this was informative to someone. Smile

Kyatai · **07-21-2013, 10:42 PM**

Hahaha...
I agree with you, Zyru. Just like in all things, there MUST be a happy medium. Strict totalitarian thinking is illogical- especially when discussing humans and human societies. There is always a mix of things because we are complex organisms.
Nature DOES affect an aspect of personal development, just as Nurture does.
My dismissive comment there was more along the lines of "don't want to get into that discussion here" rather than "I don't believe Nature plays a role." I tend to write a lot and try VERY hard to self-edit. That was... one such attempt. Tongue

But in rereading, I can see how my comment "THAT is what shapes who/what we are" was misleading... because, frankly... it is.
And yes, very informative.

Azthran · **07-22-2013, 04:32 PM**

(07-21-2013, 08:17 PM)growly beast Wrote: 3. Are the challenges a straight-up fight? Or are they most like contests, such as "who can hunt the most game in a single week?"

It depends on what the two fighting males want to do. Usually they will have a particular challenge they want to show off with, like hunting the biggest game.

In-game, there's a Basilisk tribe of miqo'te living in an oasis of the Sagolii desert that pride how well the females can hunt, and seem to make a contest of it. So, I'm thinking depending on the particular tribe, it could be a 1 on 1 fight, or some feat of strength, or a hunting quota. It may change from issue to issue.

I didn't do much exploring in the Sagolii due to my level so is there a second group of NPCs out there? I'm just curious because I know Forgotten Springs houses a bunch of Drake tribe Miqo'te.

Now I'm sorry if this next issue has already been brought up as I only skimmed over most of the thread.

From my skimming I got the vibe that a few people seem to think being a Nunh goes hand in hand with being a tribal leader. While this -can- happen SE's blurb on it says that it's very rare for a Nunh to actual hold any sort of leadership role in the tribe. Again there are exceptions and as I said it's -rare- not -impossible-.

Also from bits of NPC dialogue it seems, at least in my opinion, that he can't just simply walk up to any of the women and get some tail any time he wants. This could be different for each tribe so please keep in mind that I'm speaking strictly about the Drake tribe in Forgotten Springs. Now in one of the buildings there you can find two women talking and one of them asks the other "When is your next coupling?" In my opinion this suggests that the Nunh and the women have to plan when they get together to mate. Also close by there is another woman who talks about the Nunh ignoring/not caring about his duties, suggesting that she's not very happy with the current Nunh. Now we can all get something different from NPC banter like this but for me anyways I'd like to think that the women still hold a lot of sway over the Nunh and can refuse him should they consider him unfit for his duties.

growly beast · **07-22-2013, 04:40 PM**

(07-22-2013, 04:32 PM)Azthran Wrote:
(07-21-2013, 08:17 PM)growly beast Wrote: 3. Are the challenges a straight-up fight? Or are they most like contests, such as "who can hunt the most game in a single week?"

It depends on what the two fighting males want to do. Usually they will have a particular challenge they want to show off with, like hunting the biggest game.

In-game, there's a Basilisk tribe of miqo'te living in an oasis of the Sagolii desert that pride how well the females can hunt, and seem to make a contest of it. So, I'm thinking depending on the particular tribe, it could be a 1 on 1 fight, or some feat of strength, or a hunting quota. It may change from issue to issue.

I didn't do much exploring in the Sagolii due to my level so is there a second group of NPCs out there? I'm just curious because I know Forgotten Springs houses a bunch of Drake tribe Miqo'te.

Now I'm sorry if this next issue has already been brought up as I only skimmed over most of the thread.

From my skimming I got the vibe that a few people seem to think being a Nunh goes hand in hand with being a tribal leader. While this -can- happen SE's blurb on it says that it's very rare for a Nunh to actual hold any sort of leadership role in the tribe. Again there are exceptions and as I said it's -rare- not -impossible-.

Also from bits of NPC dialogue it seems, at least in my opinion, that he can't just simply walk up to any of the women and get some tail any time he wants. This could be different for each tribe so please keep in mind that I'm speaking strictly about the Drake tribe in Forgotten Springs. Now in one of the buildings there you can find two women talking and one of them asks the other "When is your next coupling?" In my opinion this suggests that the Nunh and the women have to plan when they get together to mate. Also close by there is another woman who talks about the Nunh ignoring/not caring about his duties, suggesting that she's not very happy with the current Nunh. Now we can all get something different from NPC banter like this but for me anyways I'd like to think that the women still hold a lot of sway over the Nunh and can refuse him should they consider him unfit for his duties.

Ah crap, sorry, I meant drake. Those are the guys I'm talking about, actually.

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