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Mtoto Wamoto · **07-24-2013, 02:44 AM**

(07-24-2013, 02:33 AM)Oskar Helvig Wrote: I had an exact number escapes me, but somewhere in the teens, like 12 maybe? And yes by "all" mean the clans form the caverns my character is from.

It is a lot of liberties, I agree. However when SE gives next to nothing about a homeland of a race, an big part of what makes a character in my opinion, I view it almost as a personal obligation to fill in the blanks with compelling lore that others can either buy into, or simply ignore. This is all fiction anyway, north-west is vague, my ideas have no merit outside of what people assign to them. This is merely the world I've crafted from which my character has emerged. Hope SE gives you guys something more than last time around.

Have a good oneÂ

OH MY GOD YOU'RE BACK!Â Thumbsup

Twinflame · **07-24-2013, 03:37 AM**

(07-24-2013, 02:33 AM)Oskar Helvig Wrote: I had an exact number escapes me, but somewhere in the teens, like 12 maybe? And yes by "all" mean the clans form the caverns my character is from.

It is a lot of liberties, I agree. However when SE gives next to nothing about a homeland of a race, an big part of what makes a character in my opinion, I view it almost as a personal obligation to fill in the blanks with compelling lore that others can either buy into, or simply ignore. This is all fiction anyway, north-west is vague, my ideas have no merit outside of what people assign to them. This is merely the world I've crafted from which my character has emerged. Hope SE gives you guys something more than last time around.

Have a good oneÂ

That's not so bad, then. I just needed to confirm that all Duskwight didn't mean all Duskwight. I like the setup you've got, and I can only begin to imagine how it's inspired your -- and apparently Eva's -- characters. Considering that every time a man in the tribe wanted to have kids he'd have to go out on a violent trip to grab himself a wife first, the population of those northern clans probably stayed pretty low. Of course that's just me guessing at every Duskwight couple having two or three kids, but also killing two or three from a neighboring clan in the taking of the wife beforehand, which would keep things more or less at equilibrium.

So what we end up with is this handful of clans in the Northwest, removed not only from the overland but from massive swaths of the rest of the Duskwight population. In their separate subterranean world, unknown to the rest of Eorzea, they developed an entire culture full of religion, art, political nuance, and this served as the backdrop for generation after generation of great tales that live on in the hymns they sing, but hymns only heard in that same world. Because Linkshells don't work, there is a very definite boundary between this world and that one, and you cannot bring this world with you when you go there. It's a foreign and alien place inside of Eorzea, secluded and secret, but ancient and dynamic.

Honestly, I find it beautiful.Â Big Grin

Â

So, Oskar! This leaves the question: are you back? Or did you just come by to tell us a story?

Kari Illderthane · **07-24-2013, 09:49 AM**

That was very enlightening thank you Oskar!

As your Yssen's statement about Duskwight's having a reaver culture I agree. For Kari's clan supplies were limited and they was at war with their splintered clan small raids were conducted to try and get food and other supplies. It would normally involve two teams one to distract whilst the others found another way and stole what they could carry before scurrying a way back to whence they came. (note they did this to the surface world also, but Kari wasn't so much involved in the raiding side of things)

Another thing I forgot to mention was a twist on the Spartan culture where instead of being taken away from their family it was just children who were orphans and these were chosen for the following reasons.

1.They did not get that family sort of care so it stopped them getting "soft"

2. They did not have as much to lose.

3. They would be missed less if something were to happen to them.

4. it would give them a chance to get revenge on those who took away from them. (If anything did)

I personally feel a lot of the Duskwight culture is about meaning and maybe historical importance (sadly which doesn't get covered by the lore.) Apart from liking it in the dark I don't really see a a reason why one would stay down below ground. Apart from family/friends and traditions which would probably have some kind of meaning towards them. We still need that separation which will define us as a surface world Duskwight Elezen from a Wildwood Elezen, we are both above ground now but what does make its different to them remember we chose to stay behind in the caves.

Which then leads to the reason why are more Duskwight coming above ground. In Kari's case it was flee or be captured or most likely be even killed. Now this can relate to the link pearls it would give a Duskwight a chance to talk about their culture without the misunderstanding of the other races, it gives them that second chance to be among their kin. Like Kari others may not be able to get back to their clan lands so having that interaction with one of their own could make the Duskwight feel like they can relate.

We also use the link pearls because there is no other way its all we have. Although we could use a Moogle to deliver the message but what is there to stop it from reading then talking to the other races about what we do? We use the link pearls because it is our only choice above the surface world. As travelling all around the world to find someone is not really a valid option.

Well those are just my theories behind things Tongue

Also loving this discussion!

Eisen · **07-24-2013, 11:27 AM**

Wow, really interesting thread. I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence so to speak as I'll be making a WW Elezen. I'm not a racist IRL (just to clarify!) and although I knew that there was a degree of bad blood between the DW and the WW I hadn't really thought about what that meant for day to day role play.Â

I understand the need to role play in the world as it is and not treat your character as an island on their own. I had planned to be fairly open and accepting of other races in general as Eisen's life was saved by a Hyur when he was younger. Now I'm thinking that it might be an interesting idea to play with the duality of being quite open with other races but with an ingrained dislike of DW Elezen. Anyway, I don't want to side track too much!

My worry of playing out the relationship between the DW and the WW would be that it might reflect on me as the player, leaving people with a potentially negative opinion of me if they weren't aware of the lore surrounding the Elezen or viewed it differently. It might also end up in the strange situation where I actively want to role play with DW characters but they don't want to RP with me because of my characters views. So in a way my character gets what he wants but I don't!

Kari Illderthane · **07-24-2013, 11:54 AM**

(07-24-2013, 11:27 AM)Eisen Wrote: My worry of playing out the relationship between the DW and the WW would be that it might reflect on me as the player, leaving people with a potentially negative opinion of me if they weren't aware of the lore surrounding the Elezen or viewed it differently. It might also end up in the strange situation where I actively want to role play with DW characters but they don't want to RP with me because of my characters views. So in a way my character gets what he wants but I don't!

Just whisper them saying it's what your character is like and not yourself as a person Smile

In truth though people shouldn't be taking any insult to characters as personal attacks. But yes a bit ooc communication goes a long way :3

Teardrop · **07-24-2013, 12:45 PM**

Wow, certainly a lot of in depth thought and detail put into Oskar's background and origin Surprise

! Twinflame's remarks are a great way to view things when presented with an individual's very creative backstory that may not entirely mesh with one's own, and I think that reflects the way that many different clan cultures and traditions can be implemented within the Duskwight community without them starting to butt heads with each other Thumbsup

Great stuff, though...I'm glad you came back and made a guest appearance to share with us!

This has been an active, detailed, and creative thread, on a race's sub-clan that is one of the smallest in player-base representation. The fact that this thread continues to thrive speaks highly of those participating, and will wear the dusky mantle in-game Wink

. This has been a great discussion, with wonderful contributions that enhance our understanding of each other, and what it will mean to play a Duskwight within the realm of this community.

Eisen, Kari makes a good point. Last beta session, during the Blue Skies event, Vairemont (a fellow Duskwight) and I were feeling intense pressure from some of the other party members over our voiced role play views on Wildwoods, as events lead to such discussion. There were those who whispered me and said that while their character would not allow such an attitude to stand, they themselves appreciated our roleplay of the Duskwight animosities. That is an actual in-game example of how that might work out Big Grin

.

Also, I think that when you are thinking through your character to begin with, when you decide that your character would forgo the animosities that are written into the lore itself, you might take a long-hard look as to "why". Why do you want to play your character that way, in a manner that is against what your race would normally adhere to? What in their lives removes that animosity from within them? Some may actually have an answer to that...Eva is a light-skin Duskwight that the Wildwoods have toyed with by letting her think she can fully assimilate into their normal society while secretly laughing behind her back (not as EVA tells it, mind you, but how Isobeau would see it Laugh

) If you are like many other characters that go for the "half-something raised by adoptive parents of an entirely different race" kind of thing, or something similar that is a true part of your background and explains the lack of learned animosities, great! But if you can't really come up with a good answer other than inconvenience, or a fear of what others may think, its my opinion that one should take a second look at that. There's not a whole lot to make one think that animosity is squashed by the greater Eorza NPC community lore wise...if it was, it would have happened already and not have been written into the lore. Its easy to see that in Eorzea, the Lalas, Roegadyn, Hyur, and Miqo'te either ignore the Elezen animosities, or perhaps chime in and prepetuate them on behalf of their beloved Wildwood...there are no civil rights marches going on within the NPCs to my knowledge. Certainly people can role play as they want, as mentioned often, player characters are exceptional over NPCs, and run at the whim of the person controlling them. Again though, if its not in the background of your character, does the "why" of it follow any sort of role play function, or is it more a comfort thing to soothe real-life conventions.

Having said all that, I do have a Wildwood I plan on playing, and the extent of his animosity will probably be role-played out in the occasional snide remark...he'll be able to operate and function in the presence of a Duskwight without being overly disruptive Tongue

.

Eisen · **07-24-2013, 04:57 PM**

Many thanks for the comments! I don't want to dilute this thread by talking about my character too much but you've given me food for thought which is always good.

Kyatai · **07-24-2013, 05:15 PM**

Awesome!

And remember- as we've said before, Real World Politics do -not- (or should not) play a role in Eorzea. None of us here are pro-racism on an OOC scale... but we want to be true to the lore, and the lore says it exists. So... we work within that.
Keep the OOC OOC and the IC IC and if you are uncertain if the other player is a RPer, or a RPer receptive to respecting/incorporating the stated lore, send an OOC whisper. No harm, no foul.

I'm honestly excited to see where this goes and how it unfolds in 'realtime' in Eorzea. Will there simply be slurs, turned backs, attempts to cheat/overprice items by PC merchants?... or will it go so far as to physical attacks, refusing of medical care or lodging... folks getting up and moving from where they're chatting/eating when a group of DW enter? It really is quite open as to how prejudice and inbred hatred might be displayed by characters.

But again- in NO way are we, as OOC members of the planet Earth, condoning or supporting RL racism or prejudice. Smile

I look forward to meeting your WW in Eorzea. Just... beware the knife she might have behind her back.... Wink

Twinflame · **07-24-2013, 05:50 PM**

I'm adoring the lore each and every one of you are coming up with, and I like learning as much about it as possible. For Megs' clan, I'm wanting it to have lived in very shallow caves, which would mean they have always had very close contact with the overworld. However, his clan would only be four or five generations old; relatively young. I'm going to come up with a complete family tree for him when I get enough free time, and one thing I would love to do, is work things in such a way that the first generation or two of his clan are exiles from the clans of other players. They would be Elezen who left y'all's clans and came to the service, found one another, and started anew a couple hundred years ago.

This is one of the primary reasons I'd like all y'all's clans to have names and stuff. So I can have Megs have heard about them and RP accordingly. If that's okay. ^^

Incidentally, what do you all mean by Reaver culture? I'm not understanding.

(07-24-2013, 11:27 AM)Eisen Wrote: Wow, really interesting thread. I'm looking at this from the other side of the fence so to speak as I'll be making a WW Elezen. I'm not a racist IRL (just to clarify!) and although I knew that there was a degree of bad blood between the DW and the WW I hadn't really thought about what that meant for day to day role play.Â

I understand the need to role play in the world as it is and not treat your character as an island on their own. I had planned to be fairly open and accepting of other races in general as Eisen's life was saved by a Hyur when he was younger. Now I'm thinking that it might be an interesting idea to play with the duality of being quite open with other races but with an ingrained dislike of DW Elezen. Anyway, I don't want to side track too much!

My worry of playing out the relationship between the DW and the WW would be that it might reflect on me as the player, leaving people with a potentially negative opinion of me if they weren't aware of the lore surrounding the Elezen or viewed it differently. It might also end up in the strange situation where I actively want to role play with DW characters but they don't want to RP with me because of my characters views. So in a way my character gets what he wants but I don't!

As someone who is very experienced roleplaying all manner of offensive characters (from racists to jerks), I'd say it's not something you reallyÂ shouldÂ have to worry about. If anyone takes OOC offense at your IC behavior, they're violating the most important rule of RP, and it isÂ theyÂ who have the problem, not you. You know at least everyone in here will understand where you're coming from and allow it, so if anybody has a problem with your RP, just let us know and we'll set them straight. xD

An idea you might like to play with is having your character be victimized by their own racism. Your WW may be outwardly accepting of all races and hold this as a point of pride, and yet my be accidentally racist towards Duskwight in a way that he cannot help. Remember that not all racists are that way deliberately; they just have knee-jerk negative reactions and instincts that they cannot prevent. They would just get a bad gut feeling or instinctive fear reaction every time a Duskwight is around, and they can acknowledge to themselves that this is a kind of racism, but still be unable to prevent these feelings. Instead, they'd just have to work extra hard at not reacting negatively to Duskwight. Despite their efforts, they may never have any Duskwight friends, because society has forced the curse of racism into their hearts, and they can't just stop being that way.

I think this is sort of how Meg's racism towards the Wildwood may play out. He acknowledges that they're not functionally any different than any other overlander, and he has passed time with them amicably. But he's had too many negative reactions to them in the past, and each meeting will require him to overcome fear and anger that he can't help but feel.

tl;dr - Actual racism is complicated and can be played out in a thousand different ways. Anybody who judges you for RPing that way is making a very sad mistake.

Kyatai · **07-24-2013, 06:13 PM**

Totally agree with your last statement, Meg (actually all of it, but it was a Tl;dr so... Wink

)

I think there is a lot of room for all shades of racism.. and just HAVING it and having a character internally war against it... creates a nice avenue for character development (either finding ways to rise above it- or succumbing to it) and internal conflict. Things like this create dynamic, believable characters.
And as a RPer that loves to delve into consquences and the 'not so pretty' aspects of life in pursuit of the entire package of experiences... I like this.
Honestly, my DW may evolve in many ways based on her environment and those she associates with. Sure she'll have a basic persona- but it will be the RP that shapes her into the character I hope will be a great asset to the DW community (and Balmung in general).

Yes... I am -so- excited about this community! hehe

Eva · **07-24-2013, 11:06 PM**

Ohhh I've been so busy these past few days and unable to reply but there's been so many wonderful thoughts and I'm glad Oskar came here to share his background because I know I was leaving some details out!!

(07-23-2013, 06:48 PM)Kyatai Wrote: Eva- have you thought of torquing your Clan name idea (aka Flowstone Clan) into a French-esque translation? Â (snip)

I think this is a wonderful idea and I'm going to mull further over this for awhile. Â Perhaps the Elder's surname may be something along this vein. Â I'll probably make some decision one way or the other soon since it's going to become critical in ongoing RP over the next few days. Â As yet the name just hasn't been dropped to those who would know. Â But I really like the idea of clan names like this as labels.

EDIT TO ADD: Â I delved into this a bit earlier and translated a number of phrases that would have worked nicely with "Flowstone Falls" - The one I liked best, "stone rain" translates to "pluie en pierre" which I kind of shortened to "Pluienierre", which I shortened even further to "Plunierre" so I was thinking maybe his full name would have been "Elder Roven Plunierre" or "Clan Plunierre" - the word itself probably has nothing at all to do with stone rain after that hackjob but just wanted to notate that here as well and will be injecting this to clan lore.

(07-23-2013, 10:26 PM)Oskar Helvig Wrote: The Oracle:Â
Oskar's clan lands would have one Oracle, a woman who could walk in dreams as if they were reality. In them she could manipulate the future, or even the past. She could influence people, see their dreams, walk in them. This was a special ability honed through out a lifetime. An Oracle would see a child in her dreams, who would be the next Oracle, and that child's family would give her up for training. Girls with no training would soon get lost in their own dream and never wake.

After speaking with Oskar a bit last night and also a couple other friends about what might be too hokey and going over good plot versus forced plot and such, I think it might be a good idea for Eva to play into something like this a bit, given her spiritual presence. Â Oskar had once suggested long ago that she might have been an oracle if she had been brought up in his clan, and the notion intrigued her, as her clan has nothing of the sort. Â But she has experienced lucid dreams and other such things which may (or may not!) be something along similar lines as this. Â This is also something which we're hoping to tie into her surface role as well, as a sort of priestess of the Twelve. Â Again, whether folks like Wildwoods would have any regard for that is left mostly on them as Eva herself exhibits no actual racist tendencies (even though her father did). Â But there is something here that may happen in the weeks and months to come that will neatly tie everything together for Eva relating to this spiritual/priestess angle, the Calamity, the Twelve, and her duskwight heritage. Â But I'm hesitant to give away too much more than I already have so I'll borrow a famous line and simply say, "Please look forward to it." Â I'll also add that I can foresee Eva being a sort of character acting as an emissary between those on either side of the fence, though again not really belonging fully to either the traditional duskwight, nor the surface dwellers. Â And I would imagine not everyone would be respectful of her for such collaborations, in both directions, but I also imagine there would be those who would still be interested in hearing her wisdom and speaking with her as a friend. Â I suppose it all boils down to that racism thing and whether she's perceived as genuine, or a collaborator, or a sell-out, or pushover, or what have you. Â It's going to be interesting no matter what though, and I'm greatly looking forward to it!!

(07-24-2013, 12:45 PM)Teardrop Wrote: Why do you want to play your character that way, in a manner that is against what your race would normally adhere to? Â What in their lives removes that animosity from within them? Â Some may actually have an answer to that...Eva is a light-skin Duskwight that the Wildwoods have toyed with by letting her think she can fully assimilate into their normal society while secretly laughing behind her back (not as EVA tells it, mind you, but how Isobeau would see it )

I admit that part of it - for my being - is that Eva is meant to be kind of a character that is very friendly, very kind, and can easily be related to. Â She's not really all that extraordinary but she is generally pretty likable - or doesn't really give anyone a reason not to like her unless they conjure such a thing up themselves (i.e. racism). Â In previous RP I've done all right at the stereotypical jerk type character (chip on the shoulder, lone wolf, whatever) and was actually aiming to go with someone more friendly here, broken somewhat out of customs but extremely curious about them, and perhaps somewhat naÃ®ve to the ways of the world (much less so two years of RP later). Â She is very much torn between two worlds. Â While Eva might think she fits in, and while Isobeau might think she's being mocked, the reality of things may fall somewhere in the middle, or depend upon who exactly is forming opinions and why - and everyone's going to have a different background and a different reason for forming different first impressions. Â But I do like this assessment, and I'm positive there would be some Wildwoods living in Gridania that are resentful of her and her status - such as the one who refused treatment at Stillglade that time. Â Then there are others, like her fiancÃ© who overlook these things even though he did not have his parents' approval. Â Everyone's impression is going to be different - and I cannot express adequately enough how awesome I think that is!

(07-24-2013, 04:57 PM)Eisen Wrote: Many thanks for the comments! I don't want to dilute this thread by talking about my character too much but you've given me food for thought which is always good.

I would love to hear more about what you've in mind for your character. Â This is very much a thread for sharing what we're all going to be doing with our characters and sharing a rainbow of cultural backgrounds, so a few paragraphs about that and some backstory or clan history or such would be interesting and may add to the discussion! Â Please feel welcome to share!

(07-24-2013, 05:50 PM)Twinflame Wrote: tl;dr - Actual racism is complicated and can be played out in a thousand different ways. Anybody who judges you for RPing that way is making a very sad mistake.

I agree with this 110% as well. Â While Eva isn't racist and has been confused about racist attitudes towards her (or by her own people towards the Wildwood), it doesn't make it wrong from a compelling storyline perspective.

EDIT: Â Added a bit above (also in red) rather than double-posting. Â Found a good clan name based on the recommendation provided! Â Thanks again Kyatai!!

Twinflame · **07-25-2013, 07:08 PM**

Eva, was your Clan Plunierre one of Oskar's Northwest clans, or was it a different clan? I also might have missed if Teardrop or Kyatai have names for their clans?

Kyatai · **07-25-2013, 07:25 PM**

You're welcome Eva! Smile

Glad to be of assistance. *bows*

And no, Meg, I have not come up with a Clan name yet. I'll let you know when I do.

Teardrop · **07-25-2013, 08:17 PM**

Clan Mauvaix would be the name I would use, a Clan based mostly on an extended family unit (with smaller families who were tied to the business through emloyment, and aligned under the dominant family's name). My concept is that this was a family centered around a job (mining), versus a location, and as such, were not tied to a specific area (thus maintained the last name as the Clan moniker), and may have operated in an area that may be atypical for Duskwights, being the mineral-rich subterranean tunnels and caverns around and about Ul'dah. This was probably not their point of origin, but this is where they were located when Isobeau came into being, at least through her early years and up to the Calamity. The ore is there, the markets for the ore are there...that location makes the most sense from my perspective. Isobeau's Pere followed the song of the ore, wherever it may lead Thumbsup

You might say Clan Mauvaix was effectively a family-owned mining company, comprising solely of Duskwights (gotta admit...they'd probably be pretty good miners, all things considered Wink

). Traditions would have been born of operational efficiency, and I envision their contact with Ul'dah as being not so infrequent...Isobeau's early exposure to outside races and cultures would have occurred within the walls of that desert city-state. The culture of Clan Mauvaix would have been less tribal, and more...industrial Huh

?

As far as Clan Mauvaix's relationship with other Duskwight clans, well, perhaps the fact that they did not exactly shun or avoid contact with the outside world, indeed, having participated in active commerce with the guilds and merchants of Ul'dah, may be a point of interest (although, as my background story sort of points to, the Calamity was sort of catastrophic to Isobeau's clan Sad

). Whether they currently operate with the same purpose and structure, or even exist as a greater entitiy at all...will be learn through role play exposition, most likely Cool

And, as always, all of the above is subject to modification or change, if I find it bumps against the lore in a manner too grievous to ignore. Tongue

Its too bad no one could predict how awesome this thread would become, and put a "placeholder" post as the first entry, where we could have listed some of the things we've come to develop through the course of this discussion, such as the information about the Duskwight linkshell, a list of the known Duskwight clans, etc...that would have been great. Can do it now, but its like a major news story tucked way back on page 15 of the newspaper Tongue

AkhutaiAngura · **07-25-2013, 08:54 PM**

I'd suggest making a wikipage, if the thread can't be modified to work. That way, all the information is compiled into one, easily readable format. Then a link to the wiki could be posted in the first post, and.. bam! Problem solved. I think.

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A Duskwight Discussion

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