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FreelanceWizard · **07-27-2013, 10:45 AM**

I meant that there's no example of the "cast a spell and get a reverse" thing, not being magically inept. The Garleans are indeed the canonical example of people who can't use magic.

Kaed Farsight · **07-27-2013, 11:21 AM**

Yeah, i've known about the Garleans which is partially where the idea came from. It isn't really getting the opposite effect of a spell, but more along the lines of Failing so hard at that specific school of magic that who knows what will happen if a spell is forced.

I was hoping that there would be a difference between internal and external Aether, which would at least give a hand hold to the idea. Although the character is actually really good at Arcanist and Thaumaturge magic(Internal Aether), when he tries to use Conjurer magic(External Aether) it just doesn't work the way he hoped.

Mycroft · **07-27-2013, 11:44 AM**

Well with the elementals of Twelveswood it seems to be a sort of give-and-take arrangement. The conjurers of Gridania are allowed to use the aether of the forest to protect it.

So if your character wanted use conjury for selfish reasons, or just keeps on using it without benefit of any kind for the elementals, one could assume that they at some point would lash out against him.

Sounsyy · **07-28-2013, 08:22 PM**

Wanted to add to some of the info about Magic use already in this thread.

Quote:The Fifth Astral Era is said to have begun approximately three millennia ago. The ice age that ushered in the Fifth Umbral Era made the land a barren and merciless place, and man was pushed to the limits of his resourcefulness in the struggle to survive. Yet survive he did, through the discovery of magic as we know it - an event which marked the dawning of the Fifth Astral Era.

At first, man was well pleased just to keep the cold at bay and compete with the other races. But man is nothing if not an ambitious beast. It was not long before he sought mightier magicks, hoping to win greater glory. It was this desire that brought forth Black Magic, the arcane art of destruction, into the world. In order that this force of chaos be kept in check and balance preserved, at roughly the same point in history, white magic, the arcane art of succor, came into existence.

Emboldened by magic, man went on to reach the zenith of glory. But his hunger knew no bounds. Over time, even they who donned the white began perverting their powers for the sake of self-gain, and in this single minded pursuit scrupled not to sully the sanctity of the Twelveswood. In his pride and avarice, man brought down the wrath of the Elementals upon himself. A great deluge was sent to cleanse the land of his wicked presence, in the wake of which the forest rose to swallow up all that was not washed away. Thus did the Sixth Umbral Era begin.

-Raya-O-Senna, The Wheel of Disaster

So as a result of the Sixth Umbral Era both initial incarnations of magic were labeled as forbidden and subsequently lost for several millennia. I'm not sure of an exact date of the (re-)emergence of Thaumaturgy but it's safe to assume that it was the first to arise in Eorzea (again).

Thaumaturgy drains the Aetherial stores of the caster's own body. To then mold that Aether into a spell, the Thaumaturge makes use of a sceptor or staff, within which is housed a medium or natural gemstone imbued with magical properties. If the caster's Aetherial stores are insufficient (not everyone can be a mage, just ask the Garleans) it is possible the spell will drain the entirety of the caster's Aether, killing or maiming the caster. There is evidence of this in the new ARR Thaumaturgy class quests.Â

Conjury came about roughly 500 years ago during the time of Gelmorra. The Padjal of Gelmorra sought tirelessly for a way to communicate with the Elementals of the Twelveswood so that they may make peace. (The Elementals didn't want anyone living in the Twelveswood after the last Umbral Era.) Over time, the power and will to harness and commune with the forces of nature was learned. This is what we know as Conjury. Through this magical connection with the land, the Conjurers were able to hear the voices of the Elementals. History lesson done. So Conjury is the manipulation of the external Aetherial forces found in nature. Earth, Wind, and Water. So how is this different from Thaumaturgy? The Aether doesn't actually enter the body in this form of magic. Aether is absorbed from the caster's surroundings and is stored within a wand or cane made of unworked wood. The caster then must meditate until the Aether manifests itself into the desired spell.

Conjury and White Magic are actually quite different entities from each other as far as lore goes. The only connection between the two is that select Padjal were entrusted by the Elementals with the secrets of arcane White Magic so that they might bring healing to the Wood and Her people. So Padjal became the wielders of both White Magic and Conjury and over the course of 500 years, new Padjal and conjurers were trained to some extent both forms.

Arcanists actually seem to use a mixture of both internal and external aetherial reserves. Like Thaumaturgy and Black Magic, the Arcanist must have their own internal Aetherial stores or else the casting of magic could have deadly consequences. But Arcanists can not actually focus their Aether into a spell by themselves. They rely on glyphs found within grimoires. The glyphs act as a blueprint for the spell and the Arcanist releases their Aether through the Grimoire. Also Arcanists have the power to unlock the Aether of Gemstones, manifesting the Aether into a primal form. The gems are another external source of Aether.

Kaed Farsight · **07-30-2013, 12:03 PM**

I can't believe I missed this last post, so much new info!

So if Conjury and White Magic are actually quite different, then is there much lore information on how white magic actually works? Is it more like black magic?

Sounsyy · **07-30-2013, 03:25 PM**

We actually don't have a lot of info on White Magic outside of that quote from Raya above. All we know that it was created as the counterbalance to Black Magic nearly three thousand years ago.Â

We can theorize a little though.

Let's take a look at the ARR Conjurer storyline. The main character is a young girl who shows an extraordinary aptitude for healing, but an extreme ineptitude for controlling the forces of nature (earth, wind, water). We know the girl's mother was the same way, and that she died experimenting with this magic. From just this info we can take two branches. This magic is either 1.0 Thaumaturgy (wherein Thaumaturges used their own life forces and aether to restore that of another) or this is White Magic in it's most primal form. As the lore behind Thaumaturgy has almost completely changed since 1.0, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say the girl isn't a Thaumaturge. So let's go down the WHM route.

If this girl was born with the power to use White Magic we could understand why Brother E-Sumi is so hesitant about her using these powers. White Magic remains to this day forbidden to all but a select few (mostly Padjal) for fear that it's rampant use will break the Pact of Gelmorra and plunge the Twelveswood into chaos once more.Â

So going down this path, let's examine the properties of White Magic in a girl who has no idea how to control it and has no basis in Conjury. The form of White Magic we see is powerful, difficult to control, and seemingly requires the caster's own Aetherial stores to cast. As the girl does not seem to have an ability to communicate with the elementals (until the very end of the quest series - spoiler alert) we can assume that she did not draw her powers from the Aetherial environment around her.Â

Again this is only theory. Hopefully we'll find out a lot more lore about the arcane magicks in the new class and job quests.

FreelanceWizard · **07-30-2013, 04:04 PM**

Not to be nitpicky, but by the quest text, it's not that she's inherently inept, it's that she doesn't see why she should have to learn to listen to and understand the elements, since she can already heal people so effectively and all she wants to do is heal people. The guildmaster is concerned that she, like her mother, will end up killing herself because she's expending her own life force when she heals people. He's not concerned about her being corrupted or accessing forbidden powers, but that she'll die.

Sounsyy · **07-30-2013, 05:45 PM**

Yes, but there's the rub, Conjury doesn't or shouldn't draw from ones own Aetherial energies. That's thaumaturgy. Conjury draws from the Aether in the elements and through meditation is molded into a spell.Â

So at the end of the CNJ storyline the girl finds a journal left by her mom which encourages her to learn the elements and at the end we see her attempting to do so. Which takes me back to the point of White Magic and Conjury being separate entities. We have a girl that is strongly oriented towards White Magic starting to learn Conjury, the art of manipulating and communicating with the elements.Â

Just for fun I wanna go back to Brother E-Sumi's "concern." Is he the most trustworthy character? Conjurers seem to keep a lot of collective secrets from Gridanians. Brother Morys being a Wildling. Khrimm's parents not being Wildlings. The very existence of White Magic. Dunstan's presence being kept secret from Fye. Not mentioning the secrets he keeps from Papalymo and Yda. Do you think he would tell us that the reason he yells "You must stop this!" at the girl is because she is using a forbidden arcane magic that only select Padjal are supposed to know how to use? Especially during a Lv10/15 quest lol? There's your conspiracy theory for the day. ;P

FreelanceWizard · **07-30-2013, 06:03 PM**

(07-30-2013, 05:45 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Yes, but there's the rub, Conjury doesn't or shouldn't draw from ones own Aetherial energies. That's thaumaturgy. Conjury draws from the Aether in the elements and through meditation is molded into a spell.

This is true, but I feel the quest makes it pretty clear that Selphie and her mother are a rare sort; one typically doesn't see people with the gift to, instead of drawing upon nature, to draw upon themselves. Is this a prelude to the White Magic quest and lore in ARR, or but one of many examples of conflicting sources of lore? I guess we'll see. Smile

Personally, I'm more willing to believe that E-Sumi-Yan is actually concerned for her safety and proper training than keeping White Magic stifled, but then, the game's thrown some curveballs at us before (*peers at the Scions*).

Sounsyy · **07-30-2013, 09:00 PM**

You're right, it could always be a lore inaccuracy. But I'm more inclined to not trust E-Sumi. Especially when you look at just how dark the nature of this game is. Khrimm's parents knowingly abandoned him. The Resistance of Ala Mhigans you interact with over several quests get brutally slaughtered by Gaius. Louisoix... Ul'dah military wiping out their own sister nation just for gold. Garleans brainwashing children and forcing them to take a life every day. Thaumaturges grave-robbing as an acceptable practice. The list goes on. There are very few forces of pure good. The most notable being the three Grand Company Leaders. Given the Conjurer's track record, I'm inclined not to trust Brother E-Sumi to put the life of a child before what Padjal see as the survival of the Twelveswood.Â

Like I said a few posts ago though, this is only a theory and my support for it. Like you said, we'll have to see what ARR has in store for us! =] Think we've gone a little off topic though, so sorry about that Vashies lol. Hope yours and others questions about Magic got answered!

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